Why is 4gate so popular?

On September 27 2010 23:28 Yurie wrote:
Isn't it because you can have 4 gates by the time warp tech hits and they don't really build prior to that? More gates also means you can warp in large groups of units to the opponent high ground on maps that allows this.

On September 27 2010 23:34 oBlade wrote:
Don't forget that the percentages of mineral/gas consumption you mention depend on the kind of army composition you're going for.

On September 27 2010 23:33 Butigroove wrote:

• Easy as fuck.
  
• Strong as hell.
  

With BBcode for more lols.

On September 27 2010 23:33 Butigroove wrote:

• Easy as fuck.
  
• Strong as hell.
  

With BBcode for more lols.

On September 27 2010 23:38 KirbyToss wrote:
Hello.

I am very intressted in where you got your statistics from because I have 4gated nearly every game I have ever played and have found that is extreamly macro freindly. I have never not been able to produce units, I tend to make 2-3 units before I even get my warp gates up, I expand and pop out 4 stalkers as soon as my warp tech is finished, I never supply block myself, I always have enough gas for stentry's or stalkers as well as a robo/obs if I go stalker/zealot for one cooldown. I tend to tech for blink or charge lots right after expanding or adding 2 more gateways.

What people have a hard time with is macro and micro, I have good macro and micro, thats why I use this build a lot and tweak it in different situations because I am very bad strategeys and timming builds but have good micro and apm to us this build extreamly effectivley.

On September 27 2010 23:39 stk01001 wrote:
I don't play toss much, but every time I've ever done 4 gate I know for a fact that all 4 of the gateways are being used almost constantly. I'm not sure where your getting your numbers from, but even if in theory you can't optimally utilize 4 gates off 1 base (still not sure thats even true?) no one is going to have perfect macro. Minerals pile up, chrono boost piles up, and I can guarantee you having that 4th gateway has meant the difference between busting someone's front down and not in countless games.. I mean I've seen Huk and other toss players even go 5 gates off one base...

If your arguing that you can apply just as much pressure with 3 gates as 4 I gotta say I totally disagree with you.. I mean I'm pretty sure all of the top players would have realized this by now and 3 gate would be the standard IF what you are saying is true..

On September 27 2010 23:33 Butigroove wrote:

• Easy as fuck.
  
• Strong as hell.
  

With BBcode for more lols.

On September 27 2010 23:41 Scrimpton wrote:


Watch your replays, Mathematically it's impossible to have anything close to "perfect macro" (100% uptime of production buildings) with a 4gate, The closest you can get, as mentioned in my last post is a Zealot sentry build that will give you roughly 90% uptime.

Compare this to a 3rax, which will support constant 1:1 production of marauder marine and SCV production (with 75% of your gas left over for upgrade purposes, and preparing for a tech transition)

On September 27 2010 23:36 Integra wrote:
1.5k Diamond Protoss here and I 5 gate every damn game.

On September 27 2010 23:51 Uranium wrote:
Because 1 more unit on your 1st and 2nd warp-ins to the enemy base can make the difference between your push succeeding or failing.

On September 27 2010 23:54 Elwar wrote:
The calculator in the OP does not take into account stockpiled resources, particularly gas, that will accumulate before your warp-gate research is complete. Thats a big factor IMO that you are overlooking.

On September 27 2010 23:51 Uranium wrote:
Because 1 more unit on your 1st and 2nd warp-ins to the enemy base can make the difference between your push succeeding or failing.

On September 27 2010 23:48 Scrimpton wrote:
If mathematically speaking it's more than possible to create the same amount of units off of 3 gates as it is 4 (this doesnt even require perfect macro, there is a 20% lack of minerals to support even 3 gates) it just comes across as counter productive.

Hmm, Maybe i should abandon ship this thread, i really didn't want to create a place for people to whine about how easy X strategy is to pull off compared to Y, This was purely intended to understand why some players are actively choosing to (in my opinion) ignore the base fundamentals of the game. (being smooth, 100% uptime on buildings)

If mathematically speaking it's more than possible to create the same amount of units off of 3 gates as it is 4 (this doesnt even require perfect macro, there is a 20% lack of minerals to support even 3 gates) it just comes across as counter productive.

Although i do understand the "but man, you can warp in 4 units at a time!!!" (even if this requires terrible macro to pull off, without going for pure Zealot sentry)

On September 28 2010 00:02 BallsOfSteel wrote:


You are right, 3 Gates would be more affordable than 4, but that isn't really the point of this particular build. The 4 Warpgate strategy is all about the explosive opening and being extremely aggressive early in the game. If you manage to get a Pylon completed inside the enemy's base then "you can warp in 4 units at a time!!!" which is a significant advantage over 3 at a time.

Some people like to open with a 2Gate proxy build very close to an opponent's base, but this risks significantly more resources and production as well. So, another reason why so many people like this build is that it takes out a lot of the risk involved of making proxy buildings near or in an enemy's base. You only risk the resources used for Pylons.

I think that when people use the Warpgate strategy, the reason they do specifically 4 Gates is because "that's how I saw some pro do it on Youtube." I prefer to start with 4 Warpgates, making the first round only Stalkers, then quickly add another 2 Gates and mass Zealots. This is because, by making the Stalkers, most opponents would switch over to units that counter the Stalkers (Marauder for Terran, Zerglings for Zerg), which get countered by my following waves of Zealots.

On September 27 2010 23:58 Scrimpton wrote:


Hasn't been overlooked, and indeed reading the thread will show that this has been factored in on page one, and that at the time determined that this only seems to allow a maximum of an extra 2 production cycles at 100% uptime.

in my opinion, read the thread :D.

Still while I still think it's an altogether flimsy strategy to pull on a decent player, at least now I know I'm not alone in thinking that it's bad, and sub optimal at best.

The argument "pro's do it" is also kinda feeble, can't remember who posted it, but man i'm sorry to have to tell you, sometimes your parents lied to you to make you feel better Santa isn't real, and sometimes Professionals in all fields get things wrong (but i do give credit to the fact that you get that +1 unit out per cycle for those first few cycles).

Makes me think that 4gate is super vulnerable to cheese if the consensus is that players aren't building many units prior to the completion of warp gate tech.

A 3gate is 118% mineral consumption and 103% gas consumption, this seems much more reasonable. Obviously nobody has "perfect" macro, we are only human after all.. but 4gate just seems over the top, you just cannot mine enough minerals to produce out of all the gates, and the shortage just seems so significant, that I'm not sure why 3 gate isn't used instead, i Don;t think it takes much for a competent player to reduce number of gates by 1, whilst keeping the unit production at the same level.

On September 28 2010 00:09 Elwar wrote:

No, you are overlooking it, because you are not actually taking it into consideration but merely saying its not a factor past the first two cycles which is untrue.

You will not be able to spend the excess minerals/gas you accumulate before a 3-gate for a VERY long time with perfect macro.

Gateways take a long time to build (in which you will acquire 910 minerals and 250 gas in that time according to the site you linked), you without a fourth gate you will have even more excess minerals and be relying on near-perfect macro and many production cycles to spend the resources = much smaller army or much longer push time.

Don't assume that you've suddenly found a very big fault in one of the most common strategies in the game.

# Easy as fuck.
# Strong as hell.

On September 27 2010 23:45 Scrimpton wrote:


People keep questioning where I got my statistics from. - EVEN THOUGH I provided a direct link and acknowledgement to the creator of the website where I got my data from, (on top of in game testing) In my OP.

Strange world.

On September 28 2010 00:10 weltraumMonster wrote:
The OP wrote:


The Reason to use a fourth gate is to give the player more time to micro... if you have just three gates and you fail to warp in units in the exact moment the cooldown runs out it hurts much more than if you had 4 gates. If you miss the cooldown your minerals stockpile enough to warp in 4 units instead wich makes up for the lost time....

On September 28 2010 00:12 Scrimpton wrote:
Fair one, is this 910 mineral surplus around when constantly producing out of the gates that are up, or is floating 1k minerals early and leaving yourself open to attack considered good now? (although saying this i can see how the sentry delaying tactic builds into the amazingness of Protoss)

On September 28 2010 00:18 Elwar wrote:

You will build out your one gate, as well as producing pylons and probes during that time, but you will have the excess to exploit the warpgates immediately. More excess than 3-gate can burn-off for a while. Thats the point. I feel like you are ignoring the reality of how the build is been played (of which you can find a million examples on youtube).

Instead of simply theory-crafting and insisting it works out, why don't you provide replays of you doing a 3-gate with the potency of a 4-gate within a normal push-timing, or at least go into a build-order tester and see if it can actually work 'in theory'.

On September 28 2010 00:12 Scrimpton wrote:


Fair one, is this 910 mineral surplus around when constantly producing out of the gates that are up, or is floating 1k minerals early and leaving yourself open to attack considered good now? (although saying this i can see how the sentry delaying tactic builds into the amazingness of Protoss)

On September 28 2010 00:17 RinconH wrote:
You 4 gate because you stockpile resources as warpgate tech finishes.

You need the 4 gate to spend all the money for the first 4 or so warp ins.

On September 28 2010 00:10 weltraumMonster wrote:
The OP wrote:


The Reason to use a fourth gate is to give the player more time to micro... if you have just three gates and you fail to warp in units in the exact moment the cooldown runs out it hurts much more than if you had 4 gates. If you miss the cooldown your minerals stockpile enough to warp in 4 units instead wich makes up for the lost time....

On September 28 2010 00:24 Pyrthas wrote:
You main zerg. You never stockpile gas so that as soon as your spire finishes, you can have a bunch of mutas on the way?

On September 28 2010 00:29 Scrimpton wrote:


at first this seemed like such a good clever argument, but after a second of thought, i realised how terrible it was .

the difference is, stockpiling gas purely for muta's is a decision I'd make after scouting, once I had a stable economy, enough units to stay alive with, i'd probably be on at least 2 bases. It wouldn't be all in, and I could easily recover from a failed push.

Nice try though! i liekd the effort ;D

On September 28 2010 00:31 Makh wrote:
OPs numbers include the pylon mineral cost factored into each unit by supply. (Zealots cost 125 mins, Stalkers 150).

4 gates aren't about massing units continually, but about constantly reinforcing an attack. Rarely do you need to keep pumping out Pylons. This, plus the fact that it's very difficult to nail the warpgate cooldown while microing an army is the reason why 4 gates is the 'optimal' build for an explosion early aggression strategy.

On September 27 2010 23:36 Integra wrote:
1.5k Diamond Protoss here and I 5 gate every damn game.

On September 28 2010 00:32 Elwar wrote:

You see what you did here is not so subtly change your argument from 'why 4 gate if 3 gate is as good/better' to 'why do protoss do 4-gate when its an all-in'.

On September 28 2010 00:38 Hexaflex wrote:
Like everyone above me is saying, 4-gate is probably better as an all-in because you get an extra couple of units quickly.

However, I was under the impression that you could sustain 4 gates fairly well on 1 base. I don't really "4-gate" cause I don't like all-ins, but I've been running 4 gates on one base as a general "this is how many units I can sustain" rule. If your maths is right, then I'd be better off 3-gating, harrassing with the stalkers, and slowly increasing their number.

Thanks OP! I'll try it out.

On September 28 2010 00:48 Vimsey wrote:
I dont know if you missed my post on the last page but unit composition is also important to your figures.

I actually think you could have more of a point with 3 gate robo because i often have to wait on resources with those unit producing structures.

On September 28 2010 00:51 Scrimpton wrote:



Didn't miss it mate, infact think i addressed it. (i.e there isn't a single unit composition of 4gate that is lower than 100% of your resources used.. all around 130% minimum. The closest you can get to sustainable is Sentry Zealot - which in fairness i'm starting to see a bit more frequently now. - whether or not it's a good unit composition is up to you to decide though.

edit: 3gate robo? I've never come across this, or if I have the game was such an easy win I didn't watch the replay so don't know about it :O

re-edit: Ofcourse the point still remains that 4gate is all in, and thus doesnt have to be sustainable. and when people say "i 4gate, but not all in" it's safe to ignore as the current game stands. - you *can* transition out of it, but you put yourself horribly behind any standard build.

On September 28 2010 01:07 Vimsey wrote:

Yes but the 50% example is by far the worst and also a composition you just wont see anways.


If you have never seen a 3 gate robo i guess you have never seen a collosus either. Such a rare thing to see versus zerg. :p

On September 28 2010 01:10 Scrimpton wrote:


i was under the impression that 2:2:1 of zeal/stalker/sentry was pretty much safe., flexible adaptable. Either way, it's going to be very expensive whatever the unit comp. (VERY) And really.. are you sure you aren't mistyping 2gaterobo? :O I've never noticed anybody try to 1base 3 gates and a robo lol! and if your saying collosus.. 3gate robo and an additional tech building??? wow i guess this in in silver or something? because any normal game you would be scouted and taken out so quickly whilst trying to overproduce and tech at such a strange level :O

On September 28 2010 00:51 Scrimpton wrote:



Didn't miss it mate, infact think i addressed it. (i.e there isn't a single unit composition of 4gate that is lower than 100% of your resources used.. all around 130% minimum. The closest you can get to sustainable is Sentry Zealot - which in fairness i'm starting to see a bit more frequently now. - whether or not it's a good unit composition is up to you to decide though.

edit: 3gate robo? I've never come across this, or if I have the game was such an easy win I didn't watch the replay so don't know about it :O

re-edit: Ofcourse the point still remains that 4gate is all in, and thus doesnt have to be sustainable. and when people say "i 4gate, but not all in" it's safe to ignore as the current game stands. - you *can* transition out of it, but you put yourself horribly behind any standard build.

On September 28 2010 01:17 Vimsey wrote:
I can assure you its not as expensive using your calculator and as I said before you are factoring in probe production past 24 probes and then not adding them to the worker count for the calculation. I will normally only produce one or two sentries with one build and another I have a zealot sentry mix. So either you should take out probe production or rethink it entirely. This is why there are many 4 gate builds because some are looking to fast expand and econ and others are looking to proxy pylon and warp in a lot of units from a stockpile of mins in your base.

3 gate robo is a standard build so get off your high horse with the silver shit. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3_Gate_Robo_Timing_Attack_(vs._Zerg)

Anyway I am done talking to a pretentious prick.

On September 28 2010 01:19 Lipstickz wrote:
You haven't watched a lot of "Pro"toss players in the recent tournaments after the patch, have you? 3 gate robo is quite normal these days. It's really not a "silver league build" as you said.

On September 28 2010 01:27 MayorITC wrote:
Fully Saturated Base:
Minerals - 20.64 minerals per second
Vespene - 5.3 gas per second

[Figures obtained from http://sclegacy.com/editorials/103-starcraft-ii-beta/620-macro-in-starcraft-ii-beta-first-look］

28 seconds for zealot cooldown = 577.92 minerals mined during that period. That's enough to run 5 gateways.

On September 28 2010 01:28 Scrimpton wrote:
not sure if it's a good idea to go pure zealot though - prove me wrong though! - of course this is without the pylon cost, so you are assuming you consistently lose the 4 zealots before the cooldown of the next 4?

On September 27 2010 23:39 Amber[LighT] wrote:


This in a nutshell.

You don't need to utilize two separate building structures and it relies on one key (and cheap) upgrade. The only things you need to remember to do are:

• make probes
  
• chrono boost
  
• set gateways to warp gate
  
• locate "w" key
  

I'm sure profit lies somewhere in there, but I haven't really found it yet...

On September 28 2010 01:23 Scrimpton wrote:


Here is the link to it: http://haploid.nl/sc2/unit_production/protoss.php

Try to find a unit comp that is below 150% mineral consumption, and also below 170% Gas consumption (this is without building probes as you requested) Now tell me it isn't all in =0.

I'm not trying to rile your feathers, i just find it odd how you keep insisting that it's "cheap" to produce off 4 gate or 3gate robo, in the face of solid numbers, and multiple player testimony in this thread.

We're past the part where we discussed whether or not it was worth it (it clearly is, as 4gate is a strategy that works exceptionally well, especially when thrown in as part of a more rounded playstyle, in say a tournament)

On September 28 2010 01:27 Ganches wrote:
I had a look through this topic for a bit and decided to test things out a bit myself.

So I played against a very easy comp just to macro obviously, but the results were a bit confusing considering the theorycrafting in this thread.

Constant probe production until I hit 30 for max saturation.
Never supply blocked.
13 Gate, 14 Gas and then Core asap obviously.
1 Zealot and another gate.
Warp gate tech asap as well.
I keep producing out of the gateways and then lay a third gateway as I get money and it finishes in time for warpgate.

Now that I got 3 warpgates I still have a bit too much minerals to spend immediately, so 4 warpgates takes effect right away.

But here's what I tried - Do nothing but watch the warp gates and chrono boost them whenever possible and just produce ASAP. I could not spend all my resources on 3 gates.. Seriously, that's real testing there not focusing on anything else other than getting pylons(Yes I had 30 probes)

I even started spamming 100% stalkers and 3 gates still wouldn't spend all my minerals, even less so the gas.

I really couldn't find anything that I might've missed so.. It seems to me 4 gate is really useful.

On September 28 2010 01:32 MayorITC wrote:


If you're not going pure zealot, your numbers would be off even more because gas sentries AND stalkers are both more mineral efficient than zealots because of their extra gas requirement.

Sentries have 32 seconds cooldown, which is 24.064 seconds real time. In 24.064 seconds you can mine 127 vespene gas. So 1 gateway can produce a sentry on cooldown.

If we were to set 1 gateway to produce sentries on cooldown and the rest on zealots
Minerals used per second = Sentry (50/24.064 = 2.077) + 3 Zealots (300/20.3 = 14.7) = 16.777 Considering you mine 20.64 minerals per second in a fully saturated base you are getting a surplus of 3.9 minerals per real-time second. At that rate, you will have enough minerals for a pylon every 25.6 seconds which is less than the cooldown for gateways.

So you can run 4 gateways on cooldown while making pylons with a fully saturated base

Long story short, your math is wrong.

On September 28 2010 01:48 MilesTeg wrote:
Scrimpton, you are plain wrong. But keep doing the "religious defense" and keep selecting the stupidest answers, leaving out the ones who pointed out the fundamental flaws in your logic.

On September 28 2010 01:53 volders wrote:
I messed around with the calculator, if you cut production of probes, take out pylons (some are usually stockpiled before warpgates are up and you lose units in battle obviously) and build at a 3:2:1 Zealot/Stalker/Sentry ratio you get 98%/117% Mineral/Gas consumption. Usually you have a bit of extra gas before the gates are up so it doesn't seem all that unreasonable since macro won't be instantaneous and with the little bit extra minerals you should be able to squeeze out required pylons.

On September 28 2010 01:57 Soulforged wrote:
You're saving minerals while the gateways are being build; You're saving gas unitl warpgate's done unless you're massing sentries off your 1 gate. The best way to spend it off ~2 waves is to have 4 warpgates. Since it's pretty all-inish, 2 benefitial units in pack of now ~11 units is important for the timing attack.
Moreso, you usually get to trade units and you don't have to make that many pylons. I've found myself able to support chrono + 4warpgates at times due to that.

On September 27 2010 23:26 Scrimpton wrote:
Considering that the famous 4warpgate uses 48% more minerals, and 37% more gas than a fully saturated base can mine, why is 4gate such a popular strategy. In a game all about efficiency and solid economic play it seems counter intuitive to me.

On September 27 2010 23:33 Butigroove wrote:

• Easy as fuck.
  
• Strong as hell.
  

With BBcode for more lols.

Someone tell me, what do you mean 4gate every game? In actual higher level play the 4gate is awful vs terran (countered by a bunker, lol? or 1 banshee) and difficult vs protoss (you lose if they forcefield their ramp).

On September 28 2010 02:13 RyuChus wrote:


This. It's just too easy to do. It's hard to deal with as well. You just hope to find their proxy pylon before you die horribly.



Really? One bunker, shuts down a 4 warpgate? Actually, yeah. Banshee I'm not too sure about. The best thing is to find the proxy pylon, destroy it and pray there isn't another, or you get horribly killed.

On September 28 2010 02:29 nka203 wrote:
yawn.. play more and you'll know exactly how many buildings you need as well as everything else. stop doing math, its a video game you get better by playing.
don't sit there counting probes and mineral patches.

On September 28 2010 02:27 darmousseh wrote:
The biggest reason I make 4 gates on a single base is because saturation happens before you are able to get 4 gates up. 1st gate on 13, 2nd gate around 20, 3rd gate around 30, 4th gate around 40. So for about 3-4 minutes you are under producing, usually which involves investing in expansions or teching. If you built the gates all at the same time immediately, then you would only need 3 + chrono boosting, however, in many situations it is ideal warp in 4 units instead of 3 simply because of dealing with harass. If there is a drop in your main, then warping in 4 units is 33% better than warping in 3. The idea definitely is to build as few production buildings as possible, but the extra security and the more friendly requirements on apm, means most build 4 gates.

The same question could be asked of 3 gates and a robo, instead of 2.

On September 27 2010 23:33 Butigroove wrote:

• Easy as fuck.
  
• Strong as hell.
  

With BBcode for more lols.

On September 28 2010 02:57 kidd wrote:
I didn't finish reading the thread, but it's an all in build where you do 1 gate core, fast warp gates then adding 3 more gates so you have additional resources to use the 4 gates efficiently, but it's also all in because if the push fails, you have no tech and no units. I don't really get why there's still a discussion. Let's ask why people ever use any cheesy strategy, they're all inefficient in the long run - that's not the point.

On September 28 2010 03:03 K Love wrote:


Haha, a guy who thinks 4-gate is cheese. How cute!

On September 28 2010 03:09 fAnTaCy wrote:


Haha, a guy who this 4-gate takes skill. How cute

On September 28 2010 03:26 K Love wrote:


How does any build not take 'skill'?
Are you mad because you haven't figured out what a spine crawler/bunker/sentry is yet and get molested by every protoss you face?

On September 27 2010 23:33 Butigroove wrote:

• Easy as fuck.
  
• Strong as hell.
  

With BBcode for more lols.

On September 28 2010 03:28 fAnTaCy wrote:



"Here..let me mindlessly make 4 warpgates, a pylon near your base 1a move into your base, mindlessly make more units outside of your base and 1a them mindlessly into your base again untill I win every game and get 1500 rating in diamond and say i'm good and yet I still have no understanding of what I'm really doing other than making a bunch of units and 1a'ing into your base."

On September 28 2010 03:28 fAnTaCy wrote:

"Here..let me mindlessly make 4 warpgates, a pylon near your base 1a move into your base, mindlessly make more units outside of your base and 1a them mindlessly into your base again untill I win every game and get 1500 rating in diamond and say i'm good and yet I still have no understanding of what I'm really doing other than making a bunch of units and 1a'ing into your base."

On September 28 2010 03:56 K Love wrote:



"I CAN'T STOP A 4GATE THEREFORE THAT STRATEGY IS OVERPOWERED AND TAKES NO SKILL, HURRRRRRRR"

On September 28 2010 03:57 whiteguycash wrote:


what game are you playing?
sounds like fun. . .

On September 28 2010 03:57 whiteguycash wrote:


what game are you playing?
sounds like fun. . .

On September 27 2010 23:33 Butigroove wrote:

• Easy as fuck.
  
• Strong as hell.
  

With BBcode for more lols.

On September 28 2010 04:00 fAnTaCy wrote:



Haha love how you assume I can't stop 4gate, and love how you think you're good with it, but to each his own.

And on topic: Yeah, pretty much it's easy to do and hard as hell to stop at mid diamond and lower, sometimes even high diamond if it catches off guard

On September 28 2010 02:43 Scrimpton wrote:
Regarding this big build up of minerals, is there a reasonable way to get rid of them?

Perhaps a forge with a cannon or 2 to stop the counter attack when the 4gate fails? - Pure mineral usage, gets rid of that pile up. I always try to just keep my money low, constantly producing, i'd feel uncomfortable floating so many minerals early on, those minerals my enemy would have turned into Units instead of banking.

Any ideas? or is it not needed, and you should just try to force the All in? - Also if it is all in, why not bring probes in on that 1/2/3/4 production cycle? If you are going to GG if it doesnt do the damage you want, you might as well bring probes in.

On September 28 2010 03:03 K Love wrote:

Haha, a guy who thinks 4-gate is cheese. How cute!

On September 28 2010 04:07 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:


see



and how many agreed on it.



4gating requires pretty much no skill at all but requires quite some to defend in pvp/zvp.
thats why you see so many terrible P players high in the ladder.




and you 4gate for the frontload of units, because you couldnt recover from any slipups with 3gates and you dont have to spend all your crono on gates. for 150 minerals thats the obvious choice.
it just works out really well with the production and makes it kinda failproof. also if one ressource stacks up you can easily burn thru it (oh 250/300? 3 sentrys 1 zealot! instead of 2 stalkers). 4gates is the correct normal amount for the push.

On September 28 2010 04:11 K Love wrote:


...is this a joke?

So 'skill-less' protoss players a high on the ladder because their strategy takes less 'skill' than others, not because the other players aren't skilled enough to counter it?

On September 28 2010 00:15 Scrimpton wrote:


This is the conclusion i came to as well, but i guess it's more about that "shock value" of the extra unit in the enemy base. 4 units per cycle is a lot nicer than 3.
It's the pylon in the base that makes all the difference I guess, being able to bypass the wall means every unit counts early on, since even thought with 3 gate u can make the same amount of numers and run them in from outside, this is all about warping INSIDE the base all at once.

Doesn't stop this play from being terrible against anybody who scouts for pylons in their base i guess. Still feels flimsy, and the number of people not scouting their base and immediate proxy locations these days must be very low.

On September 28 2010 04:11 kidd wrote:


I never said it's cheese, I referred to it as a cheesy strategy which is similar to a cheese strategy defined basically as something unconventional/sneaky to catch your opponent off guard which is all a 4WARPgate push is especially since you give up tech/econ and one of the staples of it is proxying a pylon to spawn units close or inside an enemy base. Proxies are cheese - just because a feature in the game encourages it, and a lot of people do it, or the fact that it isn't at the very beginning of the game doesn't stop it from being cheesy.

On September 28 2010 03:28 fAnTaCy wrote:



"Here..let me mindlessly make 4 warpgates, a pylon near your base 1a move into your base, mindlessly make more units outside of your base and 1a them mindlessly into your base again untill I win every game and get 1500 rating in diamond and say i'm good and yet I still have no understanding of what I'm really doing other than making a bunch of units and 1a'ing into your base."

On September 28 2010 04:17 skipdog172 wrote:


People aren't winning at high levels with 4gate by 1a moving into anybody's base. It certainly takes very very good army control to beat others who play at a high level. Yes, the build is certainly easy to do, but not "easy" to win with at high levels. You must outmicro your opponent at that level.

On September 28 2010 04:15 fAnTaCy wrote:



Uh no he's pretty much right. A good number of high rating protoss players only 4 gate and nothing else and when it fails they fail and lose pretty hard because that's all the know, and it's the easiest protoss build to do because it pretty much takes next to no skill.

On September 28 2010 04:21 K Love wrote:


Don't reply to another one of my posts until you accept the 1v1 challenge. Don't talk trash if you can't handle being beaten.

You haven't replied to my responses where I point out how much of a ridiculous, stupid statement it is that this build order takes less 'skill' than others so continuing to talk to you would be like banging my head against a wall until you can enlighten me.

On September 28 2010 04:26 fAnTaCy wrote:


I'm scared of getting destroyed and admitting that I'm in silver league having never successfully defended a no-skill gate. I'd rather just read video game forums with my girlfriend.

On September 28 2010 04:32 K Love wrote:


Yeah I didn't think you'd accept...

On September 28 2010 04:34 fAnTaCy wrote:



HAHA you're actually really funny..except not really. Please do me and yourself a favor, go on ladder, try not 4 gating for i dunnnooo.....15 games and please...tell me how many of those you actually win, I'd gander it wouldn't be more than 5 of those =]

On September 28 2010 04:16 K Love wrote:


Back up your own point for god's sake.. Nobody wants to hear this 'difference between cheese and cheesy' nonsense.

How is it unconventional and sneaky if everyone does it and it's so easy to scout? You don't have to give up economy at all, I don't understand what you mean.

If you think anything sneaky is cheese in the first place, you're probably another person not suited to strategy games.

Hahahaha, you think building a proxy pylon is cheese now? Because it has 'proxy' in it's name? Like proxy cannons or gateways?

Dude, I know what you mean though, proxy pylons are so risky and all-in, definitely cheesy. You lose a whole 100 minerals if the proxy fails. Game-breaker.

On September 28 2010 04:40 skipdog172 wrote:
What I don't understand is all of those here who feel like many undeserving toss players got to 1500-1600 Diamond because of the strategy itself. It is as if some of you have this idea in your head that if you have a certain point total in Diamond, you shouldn't be doing any sort of all-in push, and that you are unskilled.

Some of you need to accept that you aren't losing to a "nooby 4gating toss player" but are losing to somebody who is more skilled than you. Some players are going to focus on winning rather than trying new builds all the time. They aren't beating these opposing 1500-1600 point diamond players because of the 4gate strategy itself, they are beating them because they are outplaying them. Some of you clearly won't be convinced as you believe all it takes is to 1a move into your opponent's base and the strategy is so powerful that it does the rest!!! Many of you clearly don't even understand that there are different ways to 4gate somebody and different unit compositions you can attack with.

Many players are more concerned about improving their overall game rather than winning on the ladder, so they are more concerned with more macro/tech oriented builds to help them learn how to transition, manage multiple bases, etc. Many other players know that they are better than their opponents and can 4gate their way to victory in a majority of games and continue climbing the ladder to face more difficult opponents.

On September 28 2010 04:39 K Love wrote:


Last 15 games, I've won 12, lost 3.

4 gated 5 times, 3 were actually losses.


Or you could just play me and stop saying stupid things that you can't back up. You've lost the argument and your back-up of childishly insulting my skill has clearly failed pathetically because you're too scared to play one game. Are you done or would you like to advertise your small brain some more?

On September 28 2010 04:42 Uhh Negative wrote:

It really is easy though.... No one will tell you that 4 gate is harder to pull off than 2 base muta/ling. It basically also leaves you with relatively no macro skill if all your games are decided within the first 5-7 minutes.

Oh wait, toss macro is easy anyway Guess it's easier than Terran though.

On September 28 2010 04:40 skipdog172 wrote:
What I don't understand is all of those here who feel like many undeserving toss players got to 1500-1600 Diamond because of the strategy itself. It is as if some of you have this idea in your head that if you have a certain point total in Diamond, you shouldn't be doing any sort of all-in push, and that you are unskilled.

Some of you need to accept that you aren't losing to a "nooby 4gating toss player" but are losing to somebody who is more skilled than you. Some players are going to focus on winning rather than trying new builds all the time. They aren't beating these opposing 1500-1600 point diamond players because of the 4gate strategy itself, they are beating them because they are outplaying them. Some of you clearly won't be convinced as you believe all it takes is to 1a move into your opponent's base and the strategy is so powerful that it does the rest!!! Many of you clearly don't even understand that there are different ways to 4gate somebody and different unit compositions you can attack with.

Many players are more concerned about improving their overall game rather than winning on the ladder, so they are more concerned with more macro/tech oriented builds to help them learn how to transition, manage multiple bases, etc. Many other players know that they are better than their opponents and can 4gate their way to victory in a majority of games and continue climbing the ladder to face more difficult opponents.

On September 28 2010 04:40 kidd wrote:


It's nice to see you ignore any logic. A shitload of people change builds to early reaper, but that's also very easy to scout so it's not cheese because you can easily scout it and a lot of people do it? So 150 minerals, chrono on core instead of nexus and no expand because econ is spent on units doesn't give up econ? I also said it gives up tech, why not address that? You're obviously pretty terrible or stupid if you think it's hard to hide a 4gate and there is a huge difference between a noun and an adjective, but I guess that's too difficult for you to understand. A warpgate with a proxy pylon effectively works the same as proxy gateways so it can be considered proxy production like it is or is that also too difficult to understand? Or do you just conveniently ignore that fact because blizzard gave protoss that ability? The pylon isn't the gamebreaker, the 4warpgates, cutting tech and econ is.

I didn't even attack 4warpgate as a build and all you're doing is blindly and obnoxiously attacking anyone who says anything bad about it. Also heed your own advice. You didn't back up your own point at all. You conveniently ignored facts that I didn't specifically address and were just really sarcastic.

On September 28 2010 04:55 blade55555 wrote:


Because if its all they know how to do and when it fails they lose they are not a good player in general. If they can only do 4 gate every game and thats all they know i'm sorry but they can't be classified as good because they will NEVER win a tournament that has top players in it using only 4 gate.

I can't believe you said that because he 4 gates and beats you and you say that means he's more skilled then you. no that is wayyy off. For starters 1 game doesn't prove anything and I bet if the same guy (assuming their decent) knew all this guy did was 4 gate all in he would do the proper counter to this guy's build every game.

On September 28 2010 04:43 fAnTaCy wrote:


HAHA..haha....haha This actually made me laugh. My small brain, okay Mr. "HEY all builds require the same amount of skill" God why can't I be as smart as yooouuu? Please tell me where I find this logic. Like really, are you that blinded by "HEY I can win with one build I must be good" thing or are you actually not that bright? I'd really like to know that

On September 28 2010 05:03 K Love wrote:


I don't think 'all builds require the same amount of skill', I asked you to point out how 4-gate is harder than any other early push.

I also told you that I 4gate in one match-up under certain situations, but thanks for proving my 'you're bad and stupid' point.

You can try and twist my words all you like to make up for your own inadequacy, it's not convincing anyone and it's certainly not winning you this argument.

On September 28 2010 05:09 fAnTaCy wrote:

Uh really..that's what it sounds like you're saying there buddy. And no didn't say that you use it for one specific match, which proves that you're making shit up now to try and make yourself look good when in fact you just look like an idiot. And I haven't twisted your words, your just basically dumb I'm done with you, enjoy being a bad protoss

On September 28 2010 05:17 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:
Can you guys please take this to pm? You're derailing this thread.

On September 28 2010 06:13 Vz0 wrote:
Please people learn about the protoss race before you make stupid posts like this.

There are a huge variety of 4 gates. There is a 4gate all-in which is the one where u mass pylon @ enemy base. You stop probe produciton/gas and u chrono warp gate. That is the "all-in" version.

Then there is the regular 4 gate push into expansion.

A real all-in push would be 5gate or even 6gate, watch HuK play.

I seriously hate these terran and zerg players that come here telling us Protoss were newbs for making 4 gateways. I want to tell them they suck for going 3 rax and see how they feel.

On September 28 2010 06:37 Eleaven wrote:



Man I just had to register to call you out on how stupid this is.
A 3 rax is MORE than sustainable something like 98% of the minerals you can mine, and only 25% of the gas (50% on 1 geyser). So once your main is saturated, if you cut probes for just a few cycles, you can be building your next expansion, and once it's building, your back on SCV production.

3rax is well refined good push, and also a solid early game defence against most cheeses (lots of early game units)

3rax allows very very smooth transitions without ever having to hold production. 100% uptime, whilst allowing for a decent timed expansion, and very easily able to hold off the average 4gate with gold level micro.

Either never post again, or don't post when you are mad :O.

One Definition of "All in" - wagering one's entire stake - Infact with a 4gate you wager MORE than than your entire stake, 48% more in mineral terms. Of course because you floated minerals earlier on, you feel like producing out of 4 is good (as another poster pointed out, people feel good when there money is low, even if they just spammed out 10 pylons to do it, or build 6 gates after they forgot to macro.

That being said, i understand the advantage of having 4 units at a time warping into a base - still this advantage goes away if the opponent scouts his base and kills the pylon.

On September 28 2010 07:34 randplaty wrote:
Try using the calculator again. Unclick pylon production. Make 7 zealots and 3 sentry ratio out of your 4 gates. You'll get 107% minerals and 108% gas. This is as close you'll get to optimal.

On September 28 2010 04:11 kidd wrote:


I never said it's cheese, I referred to it as a cheesy strategy which is similar to a cheese strategy defined basically as something unconventional/sneaky to catch your opponent off guard which is all a 4WARPgate push is especially since you give up tech/econ and one of the staples of it is proxying a pylon to spawn units close or inside an enemy base. Proxies are cheese - just because a feature in the game encourages it, and a lot of people do it, or the fact that it isn't at the very beginning of the game doesn't stop it from being cheesy.

On September 27 2010 23:54 Scrimpton wrote:


This concept I understand, and have to agree with. However I just don't see many players struggle to defend it past platinum/possibly low diamond, and the economic hit just seems so large, leaving yourself wide open to counter attacks (which funnily enough is how i win 90% of my XvP's)

On September 28 2010 03:26 K Love wrote:


How does any build not take 'skill'?
Are you mad because you haven't figured out what a spine crawler/bunker/sentry is yet and get molested by every protoss you face?

On September 28 2010 08:03 Disastorm wrote:

I dunno im actually pretty good diamond and I still find it hard to defend as Zerg. From my experience and from what people have said in this thread, Protoss can definitely get to 1500 or more by just doing 4 gates.


What are you talking about dude its very easy for some builds to not take skill. Builds don't all require the same amount skill to use them. There are many that take near 0 skill such as 6 pool, 4 warp gate, and probably most of the basic non-pro level terran builds, etc.