EPT4 gates aren't about massing units continually, but about constantly reinforcing an attack. Rarely do you need to keep pumping out Pylons. This, plus the fact that it's very difficult to nail the warpgate cooldown while microing an army is the reason why 4 gates is the 'optimal' build for an explosion early aggression strategy.
Why is 4gate so popular? - Page 4
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Makh
Canada143 Posts
4 gates aren't about massing units continually, but about constantly reinforcing an attack. Rarely do you need to keep pumping out Pylons. This, plus the fact that it's very difficult to nail the warpgate cooldown while microing an army is the reason why 4 gates is the 'optimal' build for an explosion early aggression strategy. | ||
|
Elwar
953 Posts
On September 28 2010 00:29 Scrimpton wrote: at first this seemed like such a good clever argument, but after a second of thought, i realised how terrible it was  .the difference is, stockpiling gas purely for muta's is a decision I'd make after scouting, once I had a stable economy, enough units to stay alive with, i'd probably be on at least 2 bases. It wouldn't be all in, and I could easily recover from a failed push. Nice try though! i liekd the effort ;D You see what you did here is not so subtly change your argument from 'why 4 gate if 3 gate is as good/better' to 'why do protoss do 4-gate when its an all-in'. | ||
|
Scrimpton
United Kingdom465 Posts
[QUOTE]On September 28 2010 00:12 Scrimpton wrote: [QUOTE]On September 28 2010 00:09 Elwar wrote: [QUOTE]On September 27 2010 23:58 Scrimpton wrote: [QUOTE]On September 27 2010 23:54 Elwar wrote: The calculator in the OP does not take into account stockpiled resources, particularly gas, that will accumulate before your warp-gate research is complete. Thats a big factor IMO that you are overlooking. [/QUOTE] the sentry delaying tactic builds into the amazingness of Protoss) [/QUOTE] I think every thing to explain why it works even though you can't theoretically support it has been answered : - It's an all-in build where you aim for explosive macro at 1 point of time - You start with unspent min and gaz which gives you a few rounds before getting broke - It gives you a bit of latitude for sloppy macro while concentrating on your micro - Since you attack and try to kill, you often stop making probes and stop making pylons (you are losing more units then you are producing) But yes it is not optimal in the long run and you need to at least damage your opponent if you want to win. It also doesn't fair well against early aggressive builds or Dt rush for example. [/QUOTE] thanks for the summary. Agree with everything you say, and I'm now more aware of the mindset behind the 4gate, i still don't see it as a build I'd want to play every ladder game for "easy" (chance based) wins. I guess that's the difference in mindset between a "straight up player" and a "must be rank 1 with least effort" player :O. I have no problem with a good player using 4gate though.. very valid strategy. Does make me lol when i play against the sort that just instaleave without a GG after the 4gate fails though. | ||
|
Scrimpton
United Kingdom465 Posts
On September 28 2010 00:31 Makh wrote: OPs numbers include the pylon mineral cost factored into each unit by supply. (Zealots cost 125 mins, Stalkers 150). 4 gates aren't about massing units continually, but about constantly reinforcing an attack. Rarely do you need to keep pumping out Pylons. This, plus the fact that it's very difficult to nail the warpgate cooldown while microing an army is the reason why 4 gates is the 'optimal' build for an explosion early aggression strategy. Wow damn good point there. I still wouldnt imagine that makes up the 50% discrepancy, but as discussed, it just doesn't need to. | ||
|
iSiN
United States1075 Posts
| ||
|
Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
On September 27 2010 23:36 Integra wrote: 1.5k Diamond Protoss here and I 5 gate every damn game. I'm gonna try that today  Just every, single game. Maybe I'll reach a point where I'll be so warmed up that I can have fun doing it  | ||
|
Scrimpton
United Kingdom465 Posts
On September 28 2010 00:32 Elwar wrote: You see what you did here is not so subtly change your argument from 'why 4 gate if 3 gate is as good/better' to 'why do protoss do 4-gate when its an all-in'. The thing with science is, when evidence is given to prove a belief wrong, you incorporate it into your thought patterns. - I'm not stubborn enough to stick to my guns in the face of well reasoned discussion and evidence. (although Pyrthas's post was still pretty damn bad attempt at being a smart arse :D) Although i disagree with your summation of what I was asking still. My thanks do go out to all the people who have responded to this thread though, a couple of things i hadn't really thought much about have been brought up, and whilst i still disagree with the "4gate every game every matchup" mindset, at least now i understand it a little better now. | ||
|
Uhh Negative
United States1090 Posts
| ||
|
ravagetalon
United States18 Posts
When I do go for the 4gate attack, I *never* all in with it. I use my forces to poke at the front and gauge the strength of the enemy defense, if I think I can't roflstomp it right there, I back up and transition into heavy macro. No one says a 4gate attack always has to be all in. | ||
|
Hexaflex
United Kingdom70 Posts
However, I was under the impression that you could sustain 4 gates fairly well on 1 base. I don't really "4-gate" cause I don't like all-ins, but I've been running 4 gates on one base as a general "this is how many units I can sustain" rule. If your maths is right, then I'd be better off 3-gating, harrassing with the stalkers, and slowly increasing their number. Thanks OP! I'll try it out. | ||
|
Scrimpton
United Kingdom465 Posts
On September 28 2010 00:38 Hexaflex wrote: Like everyone above me is saying, 4-gate is probably better as an all-in because you get an extra couple of units quickly. However, I was under the impression that you could sustain 4 gates fairly well on 1 base. I don't really "4-gate" cause I don't like all-ins, but I've been running 4 gates on one base as a general "this is how many units I can sustain" rule. If your maths is right, then I'd be better off 3-gating, harrassing with the stalkers, and slowly increasing their number. Thanks OP! I'll try it out. Hey no problem, glad my thread has helped someone other than me re-evaluate their position on different builds! 3gate or 2gaterobo is definately going to allow you an easier time at playing a better macro game than a 4gate. - Double check the maths for sure, I double checked them from the site, and missed the fact that i wasn't factoring the savings involved in not having to build extra pylons (thanks to another poster for pointing this out) But for you, these costs still apply if you aren't trying to all in. so good luck with your experimentation! | ||
|
Vimsey
United Kingdom2235 Posts
I actually think you could have more of a point with 3 gate robo because i often have to wait on resources with those unit producing structures. Its given me something to think about thanks. | ||
|
Scrimpton
United Kingdom465 Posts
On September 28 2010 00:48 Vimsey wrote: I dont know if you missed my post on the last page but unit composition is also important to your figures. I actually think you could have more of a point with 3 gate robo because i often have to wait on resources with those unit producing structures. Didn't miss it mate, infact think i addressed it. (i.e there isn't a single unit composition of 4gate that is lower than 100% of your resources used.. all around 130% minimum. The closest you can get to sustainable is Sentry Zealot - which in fairness i'm starting to see a bit more frequently now. - whether or not it's a good unit composition is up to you to decide though. edit: 3gate robo? I've never come across this, or if I have the game was such an easy win I didn't watch the replay so don't know about it :O re-edit: Ofcourse the point still remains that 4gate is all in, and thus doesnt have to be sustainable. and when people say "i 4gate, but not all in" it's safe to ignore as the current game stands. - you *can* transition out of it, but you put yourself horribly behind any standard build. | ||
|
TymerA
Netherlands759 Posts
still having problems with 4 gate but now and then i can find gaps in which i can manage to get enough larvae for speedlings. | ||
|
Vimsey
United Kingdom2235 Posts
On September 28 2010 00:51 Scrimpton wrote: Didn't miss it mate, infact think i addressed it. (i.e there isn't a single unit composition of 4gate that is lower than 100% of your resources used.. all around 130% minimum. The closest you can get to sustainable is Sentry Zealot - which in fairness i'm starting to see a bit more frequently now. - whether or not it's a good unit composition is up to you to decide though. edit: 3gate robo? I've never come across this, or if I have the game was such an easy win I didn't watch the replay so don't know about it :O re-edit: Ofcourse the point still remains that 4gate is all in, and thus doesnt have to be sustainable. and when people say "i 4gate, but not all in" it's safe to ignore as the current game stands. - you *can* transition out of it, but you put yourself horribly behind any standard build. Yes but the 50% example is by far the worst and also a composition you just wont see anways. If you have never seen a 3 gate robo i guess you have never seen a collosus either. Such a rare thing to see versus zerg. :p | ||
|
Scrimpton
United Kingdom465 Posts
On September 28 2010 01:07 Vimsey wrote: Yes but the 50% example is by far the worst and also a composition you just wont see anways. If you have never seen a 3 gate robo i guess you have never seen a collosus either. Such a rare thing to see versus zerg. :p i was under the impression that 2:2:1 of zeal/stalker/sentry was pretty much safe., flexible adaptable. Either way, it's going to be very expensive whatever the unit comp. (VERY) And really.. are you sure you aren't mistyping 2gaterobo? :O I've never noticed anybody try to 1base 3 gates and a robo lol! and if your saying collosus.. 3gate robo and an additional tech building??? wow i guess this in in silver or something? because any normal game you would be scouted and taken out so quickly whilst trying to overproduce and tech at such a strange level :O | ||
|
kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
- You can reinforce your Army faster with the Proxy-Pylon. This is more important than perfect Macro at this point in the game. - You can switch to a different Unit-combination faster. - You have some money safed up I think, cuz at the start, you only have 1 gateway. - You can cut Probe-production to get more Units out if needed. | ||
|
Boblion
France8043 Posts
You have the initiative, you are immune to early game agression, actually you are the agressor, and you will just steamroll mid level diamond zergs. Transition to expo is not even problem. | ||
|
Vimsey
United Kingdom2235 Posts
On September 28 2010 01:10 Scrimpton wrote: I can assure you its not as expensive using your calculator and as I said before you are factoring in probe production past 24 probes and then not adding them to the worker count for the calculation. I will normally only produce one or two sentries with one build and another I have a zealot sentry mix. So either you should take out probe production or rethink it entirely. This is why there are many 4 gate builds because some are looking to fast expand and econ and others are looking to proxy pylon and warp in a lot of units from a stockpile of mins in your base.i was under the impression that 2:2:1 of zeal/stalker/sentry was pretty much safe., flexible adaptable. Either way, it's going to be very expensive whatever the unit comp. (VERY) And really.. are you sure you aren't mistyping 2gaterobo? :O I've never noticed anybody try to 1base 3 gates and a robo lol! and if your saying collosus.. 3gate robo and an additional tech building??? wow i guess this in in silver or something? because any normal game you would be scouted and taken out so quickly whilst trying to overproduce and tech at such a strange level :O 3 gate robo is a standard build so get off your high horse with the silver shit. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3_Gate_Robo_Timing_Attack_(vs._Zerg) Anyway I am done talking to a pretentious prick. | ||
|
Lipstickz
Denmark16 Posts
| ||
| ||
