EPTFelt good man.
Why is 4gate so popular? - Page 10
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blagoonga123
United States2068 Posts
Felt good man. | ||
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s4m222
United States272 Posts
I think a reason to 4 gate, is initially its hard for any race/ or any not 4 gate to macro that many units early game. then you transition out of it or finish the game depending on how the opponent reacts. Doing a 3gate is like thinking about doing the damage of a 6 pool, but doing a 8 pool since you want more resources... its not the same idea. | ||
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Eleaven
772 Posts
On September 28 2010 06:13 Vz0 wrote: Please people learn about the protoss race before you make stupid posts like this. There are a huge variety of 4 gates. There is a 4gate all-in which is the one where u mass pylon @ enemy base. You stop probe produciton/gas and u chrono warp gate. That is the "all-in" version. Then there is the regular 4 gate push into expansion. A real all-in push would be 5gate or even 6gate, watch HuK play. I seriously hate these terran and zerg players that come here telling us Protoss were newbs for making 4 gateways. I want to tell them they suck for going 3 rax and see how they feel. Man I just had to register to call you out on how stupid this is. A 3 rax is MORE than sustainable something like 98% of the minerals you can mine, and only 25% of the gas (50% on 1 geyser). So once your main is saturated, if you cut probes for just a few cycles, you can be building your next expansion, and once it's building, your back on SCV production. 3rax is well refined good push, and also a solid early game defence against most cheeses (lots of early game units) 3rax allows very very smooth transitions without ever having to hold production. 100% uptime, whilst allowing for a decent timed expansion, and very easily able to hold off the average 4gate with gold level micro. Either never post again, or don't post when you are mad :O. One Definition of "All in" - wagering one's entire stake - Infact with a 4gate you wager MORE than than your entire stake, 48% more in mineral terms. Of course because you floated minerals earlier on, you feel like producing out of 4 is good (as another poster pointed out, people feel good when there money is low, even if they just spammed out 10 pylons to do it, or build 6 gates after they forgot to macro. That being said, i understand the advantage of having 4 units at a time warping into a base - still this advantage goes away if the opponent scouts his base and kills the pylon. | ||
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Vz0
Canada378 Posts
On September 28 2010 06:37 Eleaven wrote: Man I just had to register to call you out on how stupid this is. A 3 rax is MORE than sustainable something like 98% of the minerals you can mine, and only 25% of the gas (50% on 1 geyser). So once your main is saturated, if you cut probes for just a few cycles, you can be building your next expansion, and once it's building, your back on SCV production. 3rax is well refined good push, and also a solid early game defence against most cheeses (lots of early game units) 3rax allows very very smooth transitions without ever having to hold production. 100% uptime, whilst allowing for a decent timed expansion, and very easily able to hold off the average 4gate with gold level micro. Either never post again, or don't post when you are mad :O. One Definition of "All in" - wagering one's entire stake - Infact with a 4gate you wager MORE than than your entire stake, 48% more in mineral terms. Of course because you floated minerals earlier on, you feel like producing out of 4 is good (as another poster pointed out, people feel good when there money is low, even if they just spammed out 10 pylons to do it, or build 6 gates after they forgot to macro. That being said, i understand the advantage of having 4 units at a time warping into a base - still this advantage goes away if the opponent scouts his base and kills the pylon. You seriously do not know how to play protoss. 4 gate does not care about it being scouted it or not. The korean 4 gate does. A standard 4 gate is just an aggresive build. Please watch some day9 before you respond: http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4069261/ | ||
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randplaty
205 Posts
Without pylons 4gate consumes 120% of minerals and 117% of gas which is very close to optimal. 3 gate only consumes 98% of minerals and 88% of gas which is sub optimal. | ||
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randplaty
205 Posts
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Eleaven
772 Posts
On September 28 2010 07:34 randplaty wrote: Try using the calculator again. Unclick pylon production. Make 7 zealots and 3 sentry ratio out of your 4 gates. You'll get 107% minerals and 108% gas. This is as close you'll get to optimal. looks like OP did come across this earlier in the thread. I have to wonder though, how often do you see pure Zealot Sentry play? - Especially after the cooldown nerf. It's almost always some stalker plays. The discussion has been done now though, as well as a nice amount of flames. probably should leave it at this lol.. 90% people not reading the OP, and just answering the title and 10% arguing whether or not a 4gate is all in. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On September 28 2010 04:11 kidd wrote: I never said it's cheese, I referred to it as a cheesy strategy which is similar to a cheese strategy defined basically as something unconventional/sneaky to catch your opponent off guard which is all a 4WARPgate push is especially since you give up tech/econ and one of the staples of it is proxying a pylon to spawn units close or inside an enemy base. Proxies are cheese - just because a feature in the game encourages it, and a lot of people do it, or the fact that it isn't at the very beginning of the game doesn't stop it from being cheesy. Proxy pylons are the standard at any point after warpgate finishes. Unless you want to label all toss gateway production as "cheesy", it's not a very good argument. But this thread seems to miss the point. "The difference between theory and practice is always much greater in practice then it is in theory." | ||
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Disastorm
United States922 Posts
On September 27 2010 23:54 Scrimpton wrote: This concept I understand, and have to agree with. However I just don't see many players struggle to defend it past platinum/possibly low diamond, and the economic hit just seems so large, leaving yourself wide open to counter attacks (which funnily enough is how i win 90% of my XvP's) I dunno im actually pretty good diamond and I still find it hard to defend as Zerg. From my experience and from what people have said in this thread, Protoss can definitely get to 1500 or more by just doing 4 gates. On September 28 2010 03:26 K Love wrote: How does any build not take 'skill'? Are you mad because you haven't figured out what a spine crawler/bunker/sentry is yet and get molested by every protoss you face? What are you talking about dude its very easy for some builds to not take skill. Builds don't all require the same amount skill to use them. There are many that take near 0 skill such as 6 pool, 4 warp gate, and probably most of the basic non-pro level terran builds, etc. | ||
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ohN
United States1075 Posts
I'm like 50/50 when they do though. As said a million times over, it's really easy to do, and it's strong as hell early game pressure. | ||
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Eleaven
772 Posts
On September 28 2010 08:03 Disastorm wrote: I dunno im actually pretty good diamond and I still find it hard to defend as Zerg. From my experience and from what people have said in this thread, Protoss can definitely get to 1500 or more by just doing 4 gates. What are you talking about dude its very easy for some builds to not take skill. Builds don't all require the same amount skill to use them. There are many that take near 0 skill such as 6 pool, 4 warp gate, and probably most of the basic non-pro level terran builds, etc. +1 lings. but dont tell too many people | ||
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St. Fu
United States75 Posts
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barnaby
United States18 Posts
Also, Day9 has an entire daily dedicated to 4gate strategies. All of the fanboys for any of these e-famous streamers/youtubers will mindlessly listen to them without trying things out for themselves. Little to no thought is going on about the efficiency. This is all tied in with the fact that even bronze level players can feel like they're macroing well by keeping money low with 4 gates because they can't truly afford them. | ||
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Roaming
United States239 Posts
1. Warp in reinforcements. When you spam out pylons during your attack and need to keep up pressure, more gateways is clearly better. In just 38 seconds you're talking the difference between 6 zealots vs 8. 2. The warpgating player typically has the bare minimal forces before warpgates, because everything goes into having a strong economy, tech, and gateways... by the time warpgates are finished, a 2 gating player who never stopped production will have a much larger army, and you won't ever catch up with a 3 gate in time. (same idea for the other races, easier to explain in pvp) | ||
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BallsOfSteel
United States57 Posts
interesting post, but other than in a Zero micro situation, when do Zealots counter marauders? If you are in their base, the importance of micro isn't really a factor. You are going for maximum damage inflicted on any future strategy, which means SCVs and Depots. Also, micro-ing units so that they take less damage is a positive because it gives you more time to warp in additional units or throw up a couple of Cannons. Enemy micro is not a bad thing in this situation. | ||
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Kewlots
Australia534 Posts
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ZidaneTribal
United States2800 Posts
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
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BallsOfSteel
United States57 Posts
You do massive economic damage if you 4 gate against zerg correctly and I often come out of it with twice as many workers even if I didn't kill anything because they're forced to make spines and lings/roaches instead of workers. It's easy to expand after you 4gate by just not building units for a short period. Gotta be careful with this mindset. I main as Zerg in league matches and what you say is true, I'm forced to sacrifice Drone production in favor of offensive units. However, when I fend off the first push I know two things: 1) I'm going to be behind economically or already behind, so I need to do something fast or I'm going to lose. 2) Because of the cooldown, I already have a general idea of what is in the enemy base without actually seeing it. If I think the odds are in my favor, I immediately push out with a lot of Speedlings (and Banelings/Roaches if I have them). Unless the Protoss has walled off, I am in a great position for good harassment or outright killing the opponent. If I am unable to get in, I can deny an expansion by hanging around outside their base. This lets me macro up and regain any economic footing I lost before. | ||
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Craton
United States17287 Posts
On September 28 2010 02:57 kidd wrote: I didn't finish reading the thread, but it's an all in build where you do 1 gate core, fast warp gates then adding 3 more gates so you have additional resources to use the 4 gates efficiently, but it's also all in because if the push fails, you have no tech and no units. I don't really get why there's still a discussion. Let's ask why people ever use any cheesy strategy, they're all inefficient in the long run - that's not the point. I hope you realize that's only one type of 4 gate. | ||
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