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United States331 Posts
On September 28 2010 03:28 fAnTaCy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 03:26 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 03:09 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 03:03 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 02:57 kidd wrote:
I didn't finish reading the thread, but it's an all in build where you do 1 gate core, fast warp gates then adding 3 more gates so you have additional resources to use the 4 gates efficiently, but it's also all in because if the push fails, you have no tech and no units. I don't really get why there's still a discussion. Let's ask why people ever use any cheesy strategy, they're all inefficient in the long run - that's not the point. Haha, a guy who thinks 4-gate is cheese. How cute! Haha, a guy who this 4-gate takes skill. How cute How does any build not take 'skill'? Are you mad because you haven't figured out what a spine crawler/bunker/sentry is yet and get molested by every protoss you face? "Here..let me mindlessly make 4 warpgates, a pylon near your base 1a move into your base, mindlessly make more units outside of your base and 1a them mindlessly into your base again untill I win every game and get 1500 rating in diamond and say i'm good and yet I still have no understanding of what I'm really doing other than making a bunch of units and 1a'ing into your base."
People aren't winning at high levels with 4gate by 1a moving into anybody's base. It certainly takes very very good army control to beat others who play at a high level. Yes, the build is certainly easy to do, but not "easy" to win with at high levels. You must outmicro your opponent at that level.
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On September 28 2010 04:17 skipdog172 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 03:28 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 03:26 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 03:09 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 03:03 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 02:57 kidd wrote:
I didn't finish reading the thread, but it's an all in build where you do 1 gate core, fast warp gates then adding 3 more gates so you have additional resources to use the 4 gates efficiently, but it's also all in because if the push fails, you have no tech and no units. I don't really get why there's still a discussion. Let's ask why people ever use any cheesy strategy, they're all inefficient in the long run - that's not the point. Haha, a guy who thinks 4-gate is cheese. How cute! Haha, a guy who this 4-gate takes skill. How cute How does any build not take 'skill'? Are you mad because you haven't figured out what a spine crawler/bunker/sentry is yet and get molested by every protoss you face? "Here..let me mindlessly make 4 warpgates, a pylon near your base 1a move into your base, mindlessly make more units outside of your base and 1a them mindlessly into your base again untill I win every game and get 1500 rating in diamond and say i'm good and yet I still have no understanding of what I'm really doing other than making a bunch of units and 1a'ing into your base." People aren't winning at high levels with 4gate by 1a moving into anybody's base. It certainly takes very very good army control to beat others who play at a high level. Yes, the build is certainly easy to do, but not "easy" to win with at high levels. You must outmicro your opponent at that level.
There's a difference between getting to 1500 rating and keeping 1500 rating =P. What I was saying is that some protoss players just 4gate to 1500 and yes around that point, people can defend 4 gate better so they start losing again unless they know how to follow up with it
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On September 28 2010 04:15 fAnTaCy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 04:11 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:07 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On September 28 2010 03:57 whiteguycash wrote:On September 28 2010 03:28 fAnTaCy wrote:
"Here..let me mindlessly make 4 warpgates, a pylon near your base 1a move into your base, mindlessly make more units outside of your base and 1a them mindlessly into your base again untill I win every game and get 1500 rating in diamond and say i'm good and yet I still have no understanding of what I'm really doing other than making a bunch of units and 1a'ing into your base." what game are you playing? sounds like fun. . . see On September 27 2010 23:33 Butigroove wrote:- Easy as fuck.
- Strong as hell.
With BBcode for more lols. and how many agreed on it. 4gating requires pretty much no skill at all but requires quite some to defend in pvp/zvp. thats why you see so many terrible P players high in the ladder. and you 4gate for the frontload of units, because you couldnt recover from any slipups with 3gates and you dont have to spend all your crono on gates. for 150 minerals thats the obvious choice. it just works out really well with the production and makes it kinda failproof. also if one ressource stacks up you can easily burn thru it (oh 250/300? 3 sentrys 1 zealot! instead of 2 stalkers). 4gates is the correct normal amount for the push. ...is this a joke? So 'skill-less' protoss players a high on the ladder because their strategy takes less 'skill' than others, not because the other players aren't skilled enough to counter it? Uh no he's pretty much right. A good number of high rating protoss players only 4 gate and nothing else and when it fails they fail and lose pretty hard because that's all the know, and it's the easiest protoss build to do because it pretty much takes next to no skill.
Don't reply to another one of my posts until you accept the 1v1 challenge. Don't talk trash if you can't handle being beaten.
You haven't replied to my responses where I point out how much of a ridiculous, stupid statement it is that this build order takes less 'skill' than others so continuing to talk to you would be like banging my head against a wall until you can enlighten me.
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Its because its an easy build. Its not complicated at all you make 4 warpgates, proxy a pylon near the base, attack and micro. They don't have to play long games and a lot of people fail to defend so they get a lot of wins.
Not hard to do and its crazy how many people get into Diamond 1500+ by doing this. I have played a few 1600 toss players who did 4 gate, I stomped it and they gg'd. I expect 1k but when I look their somehow 1600. That is why it is so popular if you have decent micro you'll make it far into Diamond league by just 4 gating.
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On September 28 2010 04:21 K Love wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 04:15 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:11 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:07 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On September 28 2010 03:57 whiteguycash wrote:On September 28 2010 03:28 fAnTaCy wrote:
"Here..let me mindlessly make 4 warpgates, a pylon near your base 1a move into your base, mindlessly make more units outside of your base and 1a them mindlessly into your base again untill I win every game and get 1500 rating in diamond and say i'm good and yet I still have no understanding of what I'm really doing other than making a bunch of units and 1a'ing into your base." what game are you playing? sounds like fun. . . see On September 27 2010 23:33 Butigroove wrote:- Easy as fuck.
- Strong as hell.
With BBcode for more lols. and how many agreed on it. 4gating requires pretty much no skill at all but requires quite some to defend in pvp/zvp. thats why you see so many terrible P players high in the ladder. and you 4gate for the frontload of units, because you couldnt recover from any slipups with 3gates and you dont have to spend all your crono on gates. for 150 minerals thats the obvious choice. it just works out really well with the production and makes it kinda failproof. also if one ressource stacks up you can easily burn thru it (oh 250/300? 3 sentrys 1 zealot! instead of 2 stalkers). 4gates is the correct normal amount for the push. ...is this a joke? So 'skill-less' protoss players a high on the ladder because their strategy takes less 'skill' than others, not because the other players aren't skilled enough to counter it? Uh no he's pretty much right. A good number of high rating protoss players only 4 gate and nothing else and when it fails they fail and lose pretty hard because that's all the know, and it's the easiest protoss build to do because it pretty much takes next to no skill. Don't reply to another one of my posts until you accept the 1v1 challenge. Don't talk trash if you can't handle being beaten. You haven't replied to my responses where I point out how much of a ridiculous, stupid statement it is that this build order takes less 'skill' than others so continuing to talk to you would be like banging my head against a wall until you can enlighten me.
Could you actually do that for me? I think it might knock a little sense into you or it just might be pretty hilarious..or both. You fail to realize that some builds are harder than others, some are easier than others, and some a lot easier than others..4 gate falls under that a lot easier than others category. Also, for your challenge, I'd accept but 1) I'm at my gf's dorm 2) I don't waste my time playing people like you 3) I just don't care to have to prove myself =]
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4 gates is the equivalent of MMMG.
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It's very easy to implement and the push is extremely strong.
That's why it's popular.
HuK was doing 7 gate at one point.
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On September 28 2010 04:26 fAnTaCy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 04:21 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:15 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:11 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:07 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On September 28 2010 03:57 whiteguycash wrote:On September 28 2010 03:28 fAnTaCy wrote:
"Here..let me mindlessly make 4 warpgates, a pylon near your base 1a move into your base, mindlessly make more units outside of your base and 1a them mindlessly into your base again untill I win every game and get 1500 rating in diamond and say i'm good and yet I still have no understanding of what I'm really doing other than making a bunch of units and 1a'ing into your base." what game are you playing? sounds like fun. . . see On September 27 2010 23:33 Butigroove wrote:- Easy as fuck.
- Strong as hell.
With BBcode for more lols. and how many agreed on it. 4gating requires pretty much no skill at all but requires quite some to defend in pvp/zvp. thats why you see so many terrible P players high in the ladder. and you 4gate for the frontload of units, because you couldnt recover from any slipups with 3gates and you dont have to spend all your crono on gates. for 150 minerals thats the obvious choice. it just works out really well with the production and makes it kinda failproof. also if one ressource stacks up you can easily burn thru it (oh 250/300? 3 sentrys 1 zealot! instead of 2 stalkers). 4gates is the correct normal amount for the push. ...is this a joke? So 'skill-less' protoss players a high on the ladder because their strategy takes less 'skill' than others, not because the other players aren't skilled enough to counter it? Uh no he's pretty much right. A good number of high rating protoss players only 4 gate and nothing else and when it fails they fail and lose pretty hard because that's all the know, and it's the easiest protoss build to do because it pretty much takes next to no skill. Don't reply to another one of my posts until you accept the 1v1 challenge. Don't talk trash if you can't handle being beaten. You haven't replied to my responses where I point out how much of a ridiculous, stupid statement it is that this build order takes less 'skill' than others so continuing to talk to you would be like banging my head against a wall until you can enlighten me. I'm scared of getting destroyed and admitting that I'm in silver league having never successfully defended a no-skill gate. I'd rather just read video game forums with my girlfriend.
Yeah I didn't think you'd accept...
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On September 28 2010 04:32 K Love wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 04:26 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:21 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:15 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:11 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:07 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On September 28 2010 03:57 whiteguycash wrote:On September 28 2010 03:28 fAnTaCy wrote:
"Here..let me mindlessly make 4 warpgates, a pylon near your base 1a move into your base, mindlessly make more units outside of your base and 1a them mindlessly into your base again untill I win every game and get 1500 rating in diamond and say i'm good and yet I still have no understanding of what I'm really doing other than making a bunch of units and 1a'ing into your base." what game are you playing? sounds like fun. . . see On September 27 2010 23:33 Butigroove wrote:- Easy as fuck.
- Strong as hell.
With BBcode for more lols. and how many agreed on it. 4gating requires pretty much no skill at all but requires quite some to defend in pvp/zvp. thats why you see so many terrible P players high in the ladder. and you 4gate for the frontload of units, because you couldnt recover from any slipups with 3gates and you dont have to spend all your crono on gates. for 150 minerals thats the obvious choice. it just works out really well with the production and makes it kinda failproof. also if one ressource stacks up you can easily burn thru it (oh 250/300? 3 sentrys 1 zealot! instead of 2 stalkers). 4gates is the correct normal amount for the push. ...is this a joke? So 'skill-less' protoss players a high on the ladder because their strategy takes less 'skill' than others, not because the other players aren't skilled enough to counter it? Uh no he's pretty much right. A good number of high rating protoss players only 4 gate and nothing else and when it fails they fail and lose pretty hard because that's all the know, and it's the easiest protoss build to do because it pretty much takes next to no skill. Don't reply to another one of my posts until you accept the 1v1 challenge. Don't talk trash if you can't handle being beaten. You haven't replied to my responses where I point out how much of a ridiculous, stupid statement it is that this build order takes less 'skill' than others so continuing to talk to you would be like banging my head against a wall until you can enlighten me. I'm scared of getting destroyed and admitting that I'm in silver league having never successfully defended a no-skill gate. I'd rather just read video game forums with my girlfriend. Yeah I didn't think you'd accept...
HAHA you're actually really funny..except not really. Please do me and yourself a favor, go on ladder, try not 4 gating for i dunnnooo.....15 games and please...tell me how many of those you actually win, I'd gander it wouldn't be more than 5 of those =]
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I main zerg but sometimes for the lulz i just play a game as protoss and 4 gate and usually win. It's so easy. I can defend 4 gate on 2 base no problem though. Once you see it or suspect it, just throw down the roach warran and a couple spines. Roach/speedling destroys 4 gate especially with some spines for support. At this point its basically GG unless my macro fails.
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On September 28 2010 04:34 fAnTaCy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 04:32 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:26 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:21 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:15 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:11 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:07 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On September 28 2010 03:57 whiteguycash wrote:On September 28 2010 03:28 fAnTaCy wrote:
"Here..let me mindlessly make 4 warpgates, a pylon near your base 1a move into your base, mindlessly make more units outside of your base and 1a them mindlessly into your base again untill I win every game and get 1500 rating in diamond and say i'm good and yet I still have no understanding of what I'm really doing other than making a bunch of units and 1a'ing into your base." what game are you playing? sounds like fun. . . see On September 27 2010 23:33 Butigroove wrote:- Easy as fuck.
- Strong as hell.
With BBcode for more lols. and how many agreed on it. 4gating requires pretty much no skill at all but requires quite some to defend in pvp/zvp. thats why you see so many terrible P players high in the ladder. and you 4gate for the frontload of units, because you couldnt recover from any slipups with 3gates and you dont have to spend all your crono on gates. for 150 minerals thats the obvious choice. it just works out really well with the production and makes it kinda failproof. also if one ressource stacks up you can easily burn thru it (oh 250/300? 3 sentrys 1 zealot! instead of 2 stalkers). 4gates is the correct normal amount for the push. ...is this a joke? So 'skill-less' protoss players a high on the ladder because their strategy takes less 'skill' than others, not because the other players aren't skilled enough to counter it? Uh no he's pretty much right. A good number of high rating protoss players only 4 gate and nothing else and when it fails they fail and lose pretty hard because that's all the know, and it's the easiest protoss build to do because it pretty much takes next to no skill. Don't reply to another one of my posts until you accept the 1v1 challenge. Don't talk trash if you can't handle being beaten. You haven't replied to my responses where I point out how much of a ridiculous, stupid statement it is that this build order takes less 'skill' than others so continuing to talk to you would be like banging my head against a wall until you can enlighten me. I'm scared of getting destroyed and admitting that I'm in silver league having never successfully defended a no-skill gate. I'd rather just read video game forums with my girlfriend. Yeah I didn't think you'd accept... HAHA you're actually really funny..except not really. Please do me and yourself a favor, go on ladder, try not 4 gating for i dunnnooo.....15 games and please...tell me how many of those you actually win, I'd gander it wouldn't be more than 5 of those =]
Last 15 games, I've won 12, lost 3.
4 gated 5 times, 3 were actually losses.
Or you could just play me and stop saying stupid things that you can't back up. You've lost the argument and your back-up of childishly insulting my skill has clearly failed pathetically because you're too scared to play one game. Are you done or would you like to advertise your small brain some more?
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United States331 Posts
What I don't understand is all of those here who feel like many undeserving toss players got to 1500-1600 Diamond because of the strategy itself. It is as if some of you have this idea in your head that if you have a certain point total in Diamond, you shouldn't be doing any sort of all-in push, and that you are unskilled.
Some of you need to accept that you aren't losing to a "nooby 4gating toss player" but are losing to somebody who is more skilled than you. Some players are going to focus on winning rather than trying new builds all the time. They aren't beating these opposing 1500-1600 point diamond players because of the 4gate strategy itself, they are beating them because they are outplaying them. Some of you clearly won't be convinced as you believe all it takes is to 1a move into your opponent's base and the strategy is so powerful that it does the rest!!! Many of you clearly don't even understand that there are different ways to 4gate somebody and different unit compositions you can attack with.
Many players are more concerned about improving their overall game rather than winning on the ladder, so they are more concerned with more macro/tech oriented builds to help them learn how to transition, manage multiple bases, etc. Many other players know that they are better than their opponents and can 4gate their way to victory in a majority of games and continue climbing the ladder to face more difficult opponents.
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On September 28 2010 04:16 K Love wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 04:11 kidd wrote:On September 28 2010 03:03 K Love wrote:
Haha, a guy who thinks 4-gate is cheese. How cute! I never said it's cheese, I referred to it as a cheesy strategy which is similar to a cheese strategy defined basically as something unconventional/sneaky to catch your opponent off guard which is all a 4WARPgate push is especially since you give up tech/econ and one of the staples of it is proxying a pylon to spawn units close or inside an enemy base. Proxies are cheese - just because a feature in the game encourages it, and a lot of people do it, or the fact that it isn't at the very beginning of the game doesn't stop it from being cheesy. Back up your own point for god's sake.. Nobody wants to hear this 'difference between cheese and cheesy' nonsense. How is it unconventional and sneaky if everyone does it and it's so easy to scout? You don't have to give up economy at all, I don't understand what you mean. If you think anything sneaky is cheese in the first place, you're probably another person not suited to strategy games. Hahahaha, you think building a proxy pylon is cheese now? Because it has 'proxy' in it's name? Like proxy cannons or gateways? Dude, I know what you mean though, proxy pylons are so risky and all-in, definitely cheesy. You lose a whole 100 minerals if the proxy fails. Game-breaker.
It's nice to see you ignore any logic. A shitload of people change builds to early reaper, but that's also very easy to scout so it's not cheese because you can easily scout it and a lot of people do it? So 150 minerals, chrono on core instead of nexus and no expand because econ is spent on units doesn't give up econ? I also said it gives up tech, why not address that? You're obviously pretty terrible or stupid if you think it's hard to hide a 4gate and there is a huge difference between a noun and an adjective, but I guess that's too difficult for you to understand. A warpgate with a proxy pylon effectively works the same as proxy gateways so it can be considered proxy production like it is or is that also too difficult to understand? Or do you just conveniently ignore that fact because blizzard gave protoss that ability? The pylon isn't the gamebreaker, the 4warpgates, cutting tech and econ is.
I didn't even attack 4warpgate as a build and all you're doing is blindly and obnoxiously attacking anyone who says anything bad about it. Also heed your own advice. You didn't back up your own point at all. You conveniently ignored facts that I didn't specifically address and were just really sarcastic.
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On September 28 2010 04:40 skipdog172 wrote:
What I don't understand is all of those here who feel like many undeserving toss players got to 1500-1600 Diamond because of the strategy itself. It is as if some of you have this idea in your head that if you have a certain point total in Diamond, you shouldn't be doing any sort of all-in push, and that you are unskilled.
Some of you need to accept that you aren't losing to a "nooby 4gating toss player" but are losing to somebody who is more skilled than you. Some players are going to focus on winning rather than trying new builds all the time. They aren't beating these opposing 1500-1600 point diamond players because of the 4gate strategy itself, they are beating them because they are outplaying them. Some of you clearly won't be convinced as you believe all it takes is to 1a move into your opponent's base and the strategy is so powerful that it does the rest!!! Many of you clearly don't even understand that there are different ways to 4gate somebody and different unit compositions you can attack with.
Many players are more concerned about improving their overall game rather than winning on the ladder, so they are more concerned with more macro/tech oriented builds to help them learn how to transition, manage multiple bases, etc. Many other players know that they are better than their opponents and can 4gate their way to victory in a majority of games and continue climbing the ladder to face more difficult opponents.
It really is easy though.... No one will tell you that 4 gate is harder to pull off than 2 base muta/ling. It basically also leaves you with relatively no macro skill if all your games are decided within the first 5-7 minutes.
Oh wait, toss macro is easy anyway  Guess it's easier than Terran though.
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On September 28 2010 04:39 K Love wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 04:34 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:32 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:26 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:21 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:15 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:11 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:07 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On September 28 2010 03:57 whiteguycash wrote:On September 28 2010 03:28 fAnTaCy wrote:
"Here..let me mindlessly make 4 warpgates, a pylon near your base 1a move into your base, mindlessly make more units outside of your base and 1a them mindlessly into your base again untill I win every game and get 1500 rating in diamond and say i'm good and yet I still have no understanding of what I'm really doing other than making a bunch of units and 1a'ing into your base." what game are you playing? sounds like fun. . . see On September 27 2010 23:33 Butigroove wrote:- Easy as fuck.
- Strong as hell.
With BBcode for more lols. and how many agreed on it. 4gating requires pretty much no skill at all but requires quite some to defend in pvp/zvp. thats why you see so many terrible P players high in the ladder. and you 4gate for the frontload of units, because you couldnt recover from any slipups with 3gates and you dont have to spend all your crono on gates. for 150 minerals thats the obvious choice. it just works out really well with the production and makes it kinda failproof. also if one ressource stacks up you can easily burn thru it (oh 250/300? 3 sentrys 1 zealot! instead of 2 stalkers). 4gates is the correct normal amount for the push. ...is this a joke? So 'skill-less' protoss players a high on the ladder because their strategy takes less 'skill' than others, not because the other players aren't skilled enough to counter it? Uh no he's pretty much right. A good number of high rating protoss players only 4 gate and nothing else and when it fails they fail and lose pretty hard because that's all the know, and it's the easiest protoss build to do because it pretty much takes next to no skill. Don't reply to another one of my posts until you accept the 1v1 challenge. Don't talk trash if you can't handle being beaten. You haven't replied to my responses where I point out how much of a ridiculous, stupid statement it is that this build order takes less 'skill' than others so continuing to talk to you would be like banging my head against a wall until you can enlighten me. I'm scared of getting destroyed and admitting that I'm in silver league having never successfully defended a no-skill gate. I'd rather just read video game forums with my girlfriend. Yeah I didn't think you'd accept... HAHA you're actually really funny..except not really. Please do me and yourself a favor, go on ladder, try not 4 gating for i dunnnooo.....15 games and please...tell me how many of those you actually win, I'd gander it wouldn't be more than 5 of those =] Last 15 games, I've won 12, lost 3. 4 gated 5 times, 3 were actually losses. Or you could just play me and stop saying stupid things that you can't back up. You've lost the argument and your back-up of childishly insulting my skill has clearly failed pathetically because you're too scared to play one game. Are you done or would you like to advertise your small brain some more?
HAHA..haha....haha This actually made me laugh. My small brain, okay Mr. "HEY all builds require the same amount of skill" God why can't I be as smart as yooouuu? Please tell me where I find this logic. Like really, are you that blinded by "HEY I can win with one build I must be good" thing or are you actually not that bright? I'd really like to know that
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United States331 Posts
On September 28 2010 04:42 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 04:40 skipdog172 wrote:
What I don't understand is all of those here who feel like many undeserving toss players got to 1500-1600 Diamond because of the strategy itself. It is as if some of you have this idea in your head that if you have a certain point total in Diamond, you shouldn't be doing any sort of all-in push, and that you are unskilled.
Some of you need to accept that you aren't losing to a "nooby 4gating toss player" but are losing to somebody who is more skilled than you. Some players are going to focus on winning rather than trying new builds all the time. They aren't beating these opposing 1500-1600 point diamond players because of the 4gate strategy itself, they are beating them because they are outplaying them. Some of you clearly won't be convinced as you believe all it takes is to 1a move into your opponent's base and the strategy is so powerful that it does the rest!!! Many of you clearly don't even understand that there are different ways to 4gate somebody and different unit compositions you can attack with.
Many players are more concerned about improving their overall game rather than winning on the ladder, so they are more concerned with more macro/tech oriented builds to help them learn how to transition, manage multiple bases, etc. Many other players know that they are better than their opponents and can 4gate their way to victory in a majority of games and continue climbing the ladder to face more difficult opponents. It really is easy though.... No one will tell you that 4 gate is harder to pull off than 2 base muta/ling. It basically also leaves you with relatively no macro skill if all your games are decided within the first 5-7 minutes. Oh wait, toss macro is easy anyway Guess it's easier than Terran though.
Right. It is easy to build 4 gates and attack. It is easy not having to worry about an expansion and teching. It is easy only having to worry about macroing 4 warpgates and building pylons.
This build is designed for you to outplay your opponent in the first 5-7 minutes. That is all that is required for this build to work. Of course it is easier than a huge macro strategy where you have all of these other things to worry about. The fact is though, those who are losing to 4gates are being
outplayed by their opponents in the first 5-7 minutes. It doesn't matter if you can outplay your opponent when you are on 2-3 bases. You first have to outplay them to not die.
So yes, it takes less practice to perfect, less multitasking abilities, and less macro ability. The fact is though, you don't need all of those other things if this is the strategy you choose. You just need to outplay them until they are dead or you surrender.
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On September 28 2010 04:40 skipdog172 wrote:
What I don't understand is all of those here who feel like many undeserving toss players got to 1500-1600 Diamond because of the strategy itself. It is as if some of you have this idea in your head that if you have a certain point total in Diamond, you shouldn't be doing any sort of all-in push, and that you are unskilled.
Some of you need to accept that you aren't losing to a "nooby 4gating toss player" but are losing to somebody who is more skilled than you. Some players are going to focus on winning rather than trying new builds all the time. They aren't beating these opposing 1500-1600 point diamond players because of the 4gate strategy itself, they are beating them because they are outplaying them. Some of you clearly won't be convinced as you believe all it takes is to 1a move into your opponent's base and the strategy is so powerful that it does the rest!!! Many of you clearly don't even understand that there are different ways to 4gate somebody and different unit compositions you can attack with.
Many players are more concerned about improving their overall game rather than winning on the ladder, so they are more concerned with more macro/tech oriented builds to help them learn how to transition, manage multiple bases, etc. Many other players know that they are better than their opponents and can 4gate their way to victory in a majority of games and continue climbing the ladder to face more difficult opponents.
Because if its all they know how to do and when it fails they lose they are not a good player in general. If they can only do 4 gate every game and thats all they know i'm sorry but they can't be classified as good because they will NEVER win a tournament that has top players in it using only 4 gate.
I can't believe you said that because he 4 gates and beats you and you say that means he's more skilled then you. no that is wayyy off. For starters 1 game doesn't prove anything and I bet if the same guy (assuming their decent) knew all this guy did was 4 gate all in he would do the proper counter to this guy's build every game.
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On September 28 2010 04:40 kidd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 04:16 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:11 kidd wrote:On September 28 2010 03:03 K Love wrote:
Haha, a guy who thinks 4-gate is cheese. How cute! I never said it's cheese, I referred to it as a cheesy strategy which is similar to a cheese strategy defined basically as something unconventional/sneaky to catch your opponent off guard which is all a 4WARPgate push is especially since you give up tech/econ and one of the staples of it is proxying a pylon to spawn units close or inside an enemy base. Proxies are cheese - just because a feature in the game encourages it, and a lot of people do it, or the fact that it isn't at the very beginning of the game doesn't stop it from being cheesy. Back up your own point for god's sake.. Nobody wants to hear this 'difference between cheese and cheesy' nonsense. How is it unconventional and sneaky if everyone does it and it's so easy to scout? You don't have to give up economy at all, I don't understand what you mean. If you think anything sneaky is cheese in the first place, you're probably another person not suited to strategy games. Hahahaha, you think building a proxy pylon is cheese now? Because it has 'proxy' in it's name? Like proxy cannons or gateways? Dude, I know what you mean though, proxy pylons are so risky and all-in, definitely cheesy. You lose a whole 100 minerals if the proxy fails. Game-breaker. It's nice to see you ignore any logic. A shitload of people change builds to early reaper, but that's also very easy to scout so it's not cheese because you can easily scout it and a lot of people do it? So 150 minerals, chrono on core instead of nexus and no expand because econ is spent on units doesn't give up econ? I also said it gives up tech, why not address that? You're obviously pretty terrible or stupid if you think it's hard to hide a 4gate and there is a huge difference between a noun and an adjective, but I guess that's too difficult for you to understand. A warpgate with a proxy pylon effectively works the same as proxy gateways so it can be considered proxy production like it is or is that also too difficult to understand? Or do you just conveniently ignore that fact because blizzard gave protoss that ability? The pylon isn't the gamebreaker, the 4warpgates, cutting tech and econ is. I didn't even attack 4warpgate as a build and all you're doing is blindly and obnoxiously attacking anyone who says anything bad about it. Also heed your own advice. You didn't back up your own point at all. You conveniently ignored facts that I didn't specifically address and were just really sarcastic.
I have a tendency to ignore some stupidity, I'm sorry. I'll address some of your failures of points if it makes you happy.
* Early reapers aren't cheese unless you were dropped on your head as a child and want to completely discount a unit
* You don't need to chrono the core at all, I thought this was obvious. Most people would chrono it regardless of if they were 4-gating or not, as well as their nexus.
* It forces your opponent to give up tech too or they lose, so this is completely irrelevant. I'm talking about PvZ only.
* You do massive economic damage if you 4 gate against zerg correctly and I often come out of it with twice as many workers even if I didn't kill anything because they're forced to make spines and lings/roaches instead of workers. It's easy to expand after you 4gate by just not building units for a short period.
* Against zerg, if they don't have an overlord over your base until it's clear if they're 4-gating, they might just be as dull as you are. More overlords can easily be suicided.
* I don't care at all about your noun vs adjective because that wasn't what I was arguing at all and makes no actual difference to it's applied meaning.
* Effectively a proxy pylon works as a proxy gateway.. EXCEPT THAT IT'S PLACED 8 MINUTES LATER THAN A CHEESE PROXY and represents a very low risk so isn't cheese at all.
Sigh. If you're another person who thinks I'm a 'terrible player' or 'stupid', you're welcome to 1v1 me and prove it, or gtfo.
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United States331 Posts
On September 28 2010 04:55 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 04:40 skipdog172 wrote:
What I don't understand is all of those here who feel like many undeserving toss players got to 1500-1600 Diamond because of the strategy itself. It is as if some of you have this idea in your head that if you have a certain point total in Diamond, you shouldn't be doing any sort of all-in push, and that you are unskilled.
Some of you need to accept that you aren't losing to a "nooby 4gating toss player" but are losing to somebody who is more skilled than you. Some players are going to focus on winning rather than trying new builds all the time. They aren't beating these opposing 1500-1600 point diamond players because of the 4gate strategy itself, they are beating them because they are outplaying them. Some of you clearly won't be convinced as you believe all it takes is to 1a move into your opponent's base and the strategy is so powerful that it does the rest!!! Many of you clearly don't even understand that there are different ways to 4gate somebody and different unit compositions you can attack with.
Many players are more concerned about improving their overall game rather than winning on the ladder, so they are more concerned with more macro/tech oriented builds to help them learn how to transition, manage multiple bases, etc. Many other players know that they are better than their opponents and can 4gate their way to victory in a majority of games and continue climbing the ladder to face more difficult opponents. Because if its all they know how to do and when it fails they lose they are not a good player in general. If they can only do 4 gate every game and thats all they know i'm sorry but they can't be classified as good because they will NEVER win a tournament that has top players in it using only 4 gate. I can't believe you said that because he 4 gates and beats you and you say that means he's more skilled then you. no that is wayyy off. For starters 1 game doesn't prove anything and I bet if the same guy (assuming their decent) knew all this guy did was 4 gate all in he would do the proper counter to this guy's build every game.
I agree with you that if 4gate is all somebody does, then that player is not an all-around overall good player. They are still outplaying every person they beat who apparently "was caught off guard" or whatever excuse they want to use.
I do disagree with your second statement though. If you lose to 4gate, you got outplayed in the early game. You simply got outplayed no matter how you wanna excuse your loss. You messed up somewhere and your opponent didn't. I understand 1 game doesn't prove anything, but it means that you weren't the more skilled player that game.
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I can't see how people are talking about players in high diamond that "only" 4 Warpgate in every game. It's pretty much impossible to 4 gate a Terran, it's only decent against a Zerg with for example the Dimaga Build and on maps with a small choke you will loose to 3 gate robo every time in PvP.
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EPT
