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On September 28 2010 04:43 fAnTaCy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 04:39 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:34 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:32 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:26 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:21 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:15 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:11 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:07 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On September 28 2010 03:57 whiteguycash wrote:
[quote]
what game are you playing?
sounds like fun. . . see On September 27 2010 23:33 Butigroove wrote:- Easy as fuck.
- Strong as hell.
With BBcode for more lols. and how many agreed on it. 4gating requires pretty much no skill at all but requires quite some to defend in pvp/zvp. thats why you see so many terrible P players high in the ladder. and you 4gate for the frontload of units, because you couldnt recover from any slipups with 3gates and you dont have to spend all your crono on gates. for 150 minerals thats the obvious choice. it just works out really well with the production and makes it kinda failproof. also if one ressource stacks up you can easily burn thru it (oh 250/300? 3 sentrys 1 zealot! instead of 2 stalkers). 4gates is the correct normal amount for the push. ...is this a joke? So 'skill-less' protoss players a high on the ladder because their strategy takes less 'skill' than others, not because the other players aren't skilled enough to counter it? Uh no he's pretty much right. A good number of high rating protoss players only 4 gate and nothing else and when it fails they fail and lose pretty hard because that's all the know, and it's the easiest protoss build to do because it pretty much takes next to no skill. Don't reply to another one of my posts until you accept the 1v1 challenge. Don't talk trash if you can't handle being beaten. You haven't replied to my responses where I point out how much of a ridiculous, stupid statement it is that this build order takes less 'skill' than others so continuing to talk to you would be like banging my head against a wall until you can enlighten me. I'm scared of getting destroyed and admitting that I'm in silver league having never successfully defended a no-skill gate. I'd rather just read video game forums with my girlfriend. Yeah I didn't think you'd accept... HAHA you're actually really funny..except not really. Please do me and yourself a favor, go on ladder, try not 4 gating for i dunnnooo.....15 games and please...tell me how many of those you actually win, I'd gander it wouldn't be more than 5 of those =] Last 15 games, I've won 12, lost 3. 4 gated 5 times, 3 were actually losses. Or you could just play me and stop saying stupid things that you can't back up. You've lost the argument and your back-up of childishly insulting my skill has clearly failed pathetically because you're too scared to play one game. Are you done or would you like to advertise your small brain some more? HAHA..haha....haha This actually made me laugh. My small brain, okay Mr. "HEY all builds require the same amount of skill" God why can't I be as smart as yooouuu? Please tell me where I find this logic. Like really, are you that blinded by "HEY I can win with one build I must be good" thing or are you actually not that bright? I'd really like to know that
I don't think 'all builds require the same amount of skill', I asked you to point out how 4-gate is easier than any other early push.
I also told you that I 4gate in one match-up under certain situations, but thanks for proving my 'you're bad and stupid' point.
You can try and twist my words all you like to make up for your own inadequacy, it's not convincing anyone and it's certainly not winning you this argument.
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I think we've pretty much beaten this build to death, but there is one point I want to make:
4-gate is not an all-in or cheese style build. Getting it scouted is not an insta-loss, and there are stable transitions out of it. I think it might be better to think of 4-gate as a build that provides a timing attack at a certain time with a certain unit composition and it exploits builds that are weak during that timing window (e.g. too-fast tech or expand builds). It's naturally going to perform better against some builds than others, but if the 4-gate fails, or if the intended push never materializes, the 4-gate player can return to their base with a very large army and then proceed to expand safely or tech up. Also if the push causes even a small amount of damage (unit damage even), then the 4-gate player is at parity with their opponent.
Worst case scenario for a 4-gate is that one gateway is not producing for a few minutes following the initial timing window.
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On September 28 2010 05:03 K Love wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 04:43 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:39 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:34 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:32 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:26 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:21 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:15 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:11 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:07 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
[quote]
see
[quote]
and how many agreed on it.
4gating requires pretty much no skill at all but requires quite some to defend in pvp/zvp.
thats why you see so many terrible P players high in the ladder.
and you 4gate for the frontload of units, because you couldnt recover from any slipups with 3gates and you dont have to spend all your crono on gates. for 150 minerals thats the obvious choice.
it just works out really well with the production and makes it kinda failproof. also if one ressource stacks up you can easily burn thru it (oh 250/300? 3 sentrys 1 zealot! instead of 2 stalkers). 4gates is the correct normal amount for the push.
...is this a joke? So 'skill-less' protoss players a high on the ladder because their strategy takes less 'skill' than others, not because the other players aren't skilled enough to counter it? Uh no he's pretty much right. A good number of high rating protoss players only 4 gate and nothing else and when it fails they fail and lose pretty hard because that's all the know, and it's the easiest protoss build to do because it pretty much takes next to no skill. Don't reply to another one of my posts until you accept the 1v1 challenge. Don't talk trash if you can't handle being beaten. You haven't replied to my responses where I point out how much of a ridiculous, stupid statement it is that this build order takes less 'skill' than others so continuing to talk to you would be like banging my head against a wall until you can enlighten me. I'm scared of getting destroyed and admitting that I'm in silver league having never successfully defended a no-skill gate. I'd rather just read video game forums with my girlfriend. Yeah I didn't think you'd accept... HAHA you're actually really funny..except not really. Please do me and yourself a favor, go on ladder, try not 4 gating for i dunnnooo.....15 games and please...tell me how many of those you actually win, I'd gander it wouldn't be more than 5 of those =] Last 15 games, I've won 12, lost 3. 4 gated 5 times, 3 were actually losses. Or you could just play me and stop saying stupid things that you can't back up. You've lost the argument and your back-up of childishly insulting my skill has clearly failed pathetically because you're too scared to play one game. Are you done or would you like to advertise your small brain some more? HAHA..haha....haha This actually made me laugh. My small brain, okay Mr. "HEY all builds require the same amount of skill" God why can't I be as smart as yooouuu? Please tell me where I find this logic. Like really, are you that blinded by "HEY I can win with one build I must be good" thing or are you actually not that bright? I'd really like to know that I don't think 'all builds require the same amount of skill', I asked you to point out how 4-gate is harder than any other early push. I also told you that I 4gate in one match-up under certain situations, but thanks for proving my 'you're bad and stupid' point. You can try and twist my words all you like to make up for your own inadequacy, it's not convincing anyone and it's certainly not winning you this argument.
Uh really..that's what it sounds like you're saying there buddy. And no didn't say that you use it for one specific match, which proves that you're making shit up now to try and make yourself look good when in fact you just look like an idiot. And I haven't twisted your words, your just basically dumb  I'm done with you, enjoy being a bad protoss
User was warned for this post
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On September 28 2010 05:09 fAnTaCy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 05:03 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:43 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:39 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:34 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:32 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:26 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:21 K Love wrote:On September 28 2010 04:15 fAnTaCy wrote:On September 28 2010 04:11 K Love wrote:
[quote]
...is this a joke?
So 'skill-less' protoss players a high on the ladder because their strategy takes less 'skill' than others, not because the other players aren't skilled enough to counter it? Uh no he's pretty much right. A good number of high rating protoss players only 4 gate and nothing else and when it fails they fail and lose pretty hard because that's all the know, and it's the easiest protoss build to do because it pretty much takes next to no skill. Don't reply to another one of my posts until you accept the 1v1 challenge. Don't talk trash if you can't handle being beaten. You haven't replied to my responses where I point out how much of a ridiculous, stupid statement it is that this build order takes less 'skill' than others so continuing to talk to you would be like banging my head against a wall until you can enlighten me. I'm scared of getting destroyed and admitting that I'm in silver league having never successfully defended a no-skill gate. I'd rather just read video game forums with my girlfriend. Yeah I didn't think you'd accept... HAHA you're actually really funny..except not really. Please do me and yourself a favor, go on ladder, try not 4 gating for i dunnnooo.....15 games and please...tell me how many of those you actually win, I'd gander it wouldn't be more than 5 of those =] Last 15 games, I've won 12, lost 3. 4 gated 5 times, 3 were actually losses. Or you could just play me and stop saying stupid things that you can't back up. You've lost the argument and your back-up of childishly insulting my skill has clearly failed pathetically because you're too scared to play one game. Are you done or would you like to advertise your small brain some more? HAHA..haha....haha This actually made me laugh. My small brain, okay Mr. "HEY all builds require the same amount of skill" God why can't I be as smart as yooouuu? Please tell me where I find this logic. Like really, are you that blinded by "HEY I can win with one build I must be good" thing or are you actually not that bright? I'd really like to know that I don't think 'all builds require the same amount of skill', I asked you to point out how 4-gate is harder than any other early push. I also told you that I 4gate in one match-up under certain situations, but thanks for proving my 'you're bad and stupid' point. You can try and twist my words all you like to make up for your own inadequacy, it's not convincing anyone and it's certainly not winning you this argument. Uh really..that's what it sounds like you're saying there buddy. And no didn't say that you use it for one specific match, which proves that you're making shit up now to try and make yourself look good when in fact you just look like an idiot. And I haven't twisted your words, your just basically dumb I'm done with you, enjoy being a bad protoss
umad?
User was temp banned for this post.
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Can you guys please take this to pm? You're derailing this thread.
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So many people have elected to answer the question in the title of the thread and have completely failed to read the OP. If you decide to tl;dr, at least have the common decency to not post.
P.S: The OP is saying that a 4gate costs more money than a saturated base can support.
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3Rax is way easier to do, and u get stronger units >___>
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On September 28 2010 05:17 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:
Can you guys please take this to pm? You're derailing this thread.
It's cool. Fantacy has claimed the victory of the argument already, having wittily outsmarted me by lying and making unjustified statements before failing to agree to have a match and childishly calling me names.
Edit: Accidentally correctly spelled fantasy, rather than his actual name, fantacy
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Clearly you always need to pay for pylons for your reinforcements even if some/all of your original army dies and you have extra pop space.
Fail thread is still fail.
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4 warpgate is very easy to block with bunker/sunken/sentry on BW-esque maps (natural that defends the main, no backdoor, narrow base entrance). However, it's harder to gain an economic lead on the 4gating player because a Zerg has to sacrifice lots of econ to defend the push, whereas a P/T can't expand as quickly because the 4-gating player can probably camp their natural.
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if you cut the probes from the OP's link, you can use 16 mining for similar results -> stronger rush
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it can make a bad player look decent
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4 gate is only use if u go to Warp gate ... because u are full production with 3 gate but
when u switch to 4 warp gate the "delay" is greater than unit production in normal gate So that why people use 4 warp most of time ( and now its 5 most of time ) since they put + 5 seconde to warp
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On September 28 2010 05:00 skipdog172 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 04:55 blade55555 wrote:On September 28 2010 04:40 skipdog172 wrote:
What I don't understand is all of those here who feel like many undeserving toss players got to 1500-1600 Diamond because of the strategy itself. It is as if some of you have this idea in your head that if you have a certain point total in Diamond, you shouldn't be doing any sort of all-in push, and that you are unskilled.
Some of you need to accept that you aren't losing to a "nooby 4gating toss player" but are losing to somebody who is more skilled than you. Some players are going to focus on winning rather than trying new builds all the time. They aren't beating these opposing 1500-1600 point diamond players because of the 4gate strategy itself, they are beating them because they are outplaying them. Some of you clearly won't be convinced as you believe all it takes is to 1a move into your opponent's base and the strategy is so powerful that it does the rest!!! Many of you clearly don't even understand that there are different ways to 4gate somebody and different unit compositions you can attack with.
Many players are more concerned about improving their overall game rather than winning on the ladder, so they are more concerned with more macro/tech oriented builds to help them learn how to transition, manage multiple bases, etc. Many other players know that they are better than their opponents and can 4gate their way to victory in a majority of games and continue climbing the ladder to face more difficult opponents. Because if its all they know how to do and when it fails they lose they are not a good player in general. If they can only do 4 gate every game and thats all they know i'm sorry but they can't be classified as good because they will NEVER win a tournament that has top players in it using only 4 gate. I can't believe you said that because he 4 gates and beats you and you say that means he's more skilled then you. no that is wayyy off. For starters 1 game doesn't prove anything and I bet if the same guy (assuming their decent) knew all this guy did was 4 gate all in he would do the proper counter to this guy's build every game. I agree with you that if 4gate is all somebody does, then that player is not an all-around overall good player. They are still outplaying every person they beat who apparently "was caught off guard" or whatever excuse they want to use. I do disagree with your second statement though. If you lose to 4gate, you got outplayed in the early game. You simply got outplayed no matter how you wanna excuse your loss. You messed up somewhere and your opponent didn't. I understand 1 game doesn't prove anything, but it means that you weren't the more skilled player that game.
You have a weird perception of skill ...
That's like saying beating a pro with a 6-pool makes you the more skilled player that game. The reason many people lose to it is because it's harder to defend then to execute, hence the superior player can still lose.
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So many people have elected to answer the question in the title of the thread and have completely failed to read the OP. If you decide to tl;dr, at least have the common decency to not post.
P.S: The OP is saying that a 4gate costs more money than a saturated base can support.
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Because people are trying to get quick, easy wins on the ladder. One basing in general is very popular for both Terran and Protoss, Most one base strats are pretty easy to execute.
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because they're protoss players. they don't care about economy. let me tell you something about protoss players. they only ever ask themselves two questions: "why isn't my opponent dead yet", and "how can i make them dead at THIS VERY MOMENT?"
it's a one base allin. simple as that. it's a mindless strategy and it's incredibly powerful for being so mindless. if the opponent is caught off guard (don't know how they could, it's all protoss players ever do), then the 4gate is autowin. much easier than actually learning to play the game.
User was warned for this post
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Don't worry, in a few months after people get used to playing against 4 gate, it will probably only be viable in PvP and even then only on certain maps.
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To actually address the OP, unlike 90% of the replies in this thread, there's a few theories.
People don't feel confident in their ability to macro.
People cut stalker production, then pat themselves on the back for being able to spend all their minerals.
People get supply blocked, then pat themselves on the back for being able to spend all their minerals.
People don't realize how much of an advantage they can get from 3-gating.
I'm going to experiment with that last point there. I know that when I watched IDRA's last game in the GSL, I was asking myself: "How does this protoss possibly hope to break him with only 3 gates..?"
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Please people learn about the protoss race before you make stupid posts like this.
There are a huge variety of 4 gates. There is a 4gate all-in which is the one where u mass pylon @ enemy base. You stop probe produciton/gas and u chrono warp gate. That is the "all-in" version.
Then there is the regular 4 gate push into expansion.
A real all-in push would be 5gate or even 6gate, watch HuK play.
I seriously hate these terran and zerg players that come here telling us Protoss were newbs for making 4 gateways. I want to tell them they suck for going 3 rax and see how they feel.
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EPT
