EPTIf your initial 4-gate push fails to take the game, as long as you are able to save some of your units you can expand and still be sort of even. I've never gone 4-gate as an all-in tactic - I usually do it harass-style like how Day9 demonstrated in one of his dailies
Why is 4gate so popular? - Page 7
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entocheets
Australia367 Posts
If your initial 4-gate push fails to take the game, as long as you are able to save some of your units you can expand and still be sort of even. I've never gone 4-gate as an all-in tactic - I usually do it harass-style like how Day9 demonstrated in one of his dailies | ||
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K Love
Australia45 Posts
On September 28 2010 03:09 fAnTaCy wrote: Haha, a guy who this 4-gate takes skill. How cute How does any build not take 'skill'? Are you mad because you haven't figured out what a spine crawler/bunker/sentry is yet and get molested by every protoss you face? | ||
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fAnTaCy
United States893 Posts
On September 28 2010 03:26 K Love wrote: How does any build not take 'skill'? Are you mad because you haven't figured out what a spine crawler/bunker/sentry is yet and get molested by every protoss you face? "Here..let me mindlessly make 4 warpgates, a pylon near your base 1a move into your base, mindlessly make more units outside of your base and 1a them mindlessly into your base again untill I win every game and get 1500 rating in diamond and say i'm good and yet I still have no understanding of what I'm really doing other than making a bunch of units and 1a'ing into your base." | ||
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OPSavioR
Sweden1465 Posts
On September 27 2010 23:33 Butigroove wrote:
With BBcode for more lols. Amen brother. | ||
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
The pylon cost of a 4gate production cycle is overestimated by the widget you linked, because you are constantly losing units during a real 4gate push and thus have to make far fewer pylons. You can cut probe production as well, and in that case a pure zealot army is only 3% over saturated mineral income. | ||
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
hope it helps op that those %'s mean nothing at all, or that they make up part of billions of other facts that represent a strategy. | ||
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K Love
Australia45 Posts
On September 28 2010 03:28 fAnTaCy wrote: "Here..let me mindlessly make 4 warpgates, a pylon near your base 1a move into your base, mindlessly make more units outside of your base and 1a them mindlessly into your base again untill I win every game and get 1500 rating in diamond and say i'm good and yet I still have no understanding of what I'm really doing other than making a bunch of units and 1a'ing into your base." "I CAN'T STOP A 4GATE THEREFORE THAT STRATEGY IS OVERPOWERED AND TAKES NO SKILL, HURRRRRRRR" | ||
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koppik
United States676 Posts
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whiteguycash
United States476 Posts
On September 28 2010 03:28 fAnTaCy wrote: "Here..let me mindlessly make 4 warpgates, a pylon near your base 1a move into your base, mindlessly make more units outside of your base and 1a them mindlessly into your base again untill I win every game and get 1500 rating in diamond and say i'm good and yet I still have no understanding of what I'm really doing other than making a bunch of units and 1a'ing into your base." what game are you playing? sounds like fun. . . | ||
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fAnTaCy
United States893 Posts
On September 28 2010 03:56 K Love wrote: "I CAN'T STOP A 4GATE THEREFORE THAT STRATEGY IS OVERPOWERED AND TAKES NO SKILL, HURRRRRRRR" Haha love how you assume I can't stop 4gate, and love how you think you're good with it, but to each his own. And on topic: Yeah, pretty much it's easy to do and hard as hell to stop at mid diamond and lower, sometimes even high diamond if it catches off guard | ||
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jambam
United States324 Posts
On September 28 2010 03:57 whiteguycash wrote: what game are you playing? sounds like fun. . . Lol... don't steal from Idra. Especially if you're wrong | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On September 28 2010 03:57 whiteguycash wrote: what game are you playing? sounds like fun. . . see On September 27 2010 23:33 Butigroove wrote:
With BBcode for more lols. and how many agreed on it. 4gating requires pretty much no skill at all but requires quite some to defend in pvp/zvp. thats why you see so many terrible P players high in the ladder(includes myself. when i random P i often win zvps/pvps vs superior players by just 4gating evryone) is it overpowered in the sense of too hard to beat/unbeatable? no. is it overpowered from a skillreq/risk/power ratio? maybe. and you 4gate for the frontload of units, because you couldnt recover from any slipups with 3gates and you dont have to spend all your crono on gates. for 150 minerals thats the obvious choice. it just works out really well with the production and makes it kinda failproof. also if one ressource stacks up you can easily burn thru it (oh 250/300? 3 sentrys 1 zealot! instead of 2 stalkers). 4gates is the correct normal amount for the push. | ||
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K Love
Australia45 Posts
On September 28 2010 04:00 fAnTaCy wrote: Haha love how you assume I can't stop 4gate, and love how you think you're good with it, but to each his own. And on topic: Yeah, pretty much it's easy to do and hard as hell to stop at mid diamond and lower, sometimes even high diamond if it catches off guard Oh I absolutely do. Only an awful player would twist a build order like that. It's sort of pathetic that you even rationalise that certain units or unit producing structures take more 'skill' to build than others. I mean, what? You could ignore micro and macro-management, map awareness and scouting for any build order and say it takes no 'skill', but that's not the correct way to go about getting out of silver league buddy. If you think I'm not 'good', you're welcome to 1v1 me and prove it. | ||
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Kensai
28 Posts
On September 28 2010 02:43 Scrimpton wrote: Regarding this big build up of minerals, is there a reasonable way to get rid of them? Perhaps a forge with a cannon or 2 to stop the counter attack when the 4gate fails? - Pure mineral usage, gets rid of that pile up. I always try to just keep my money low, constantly producing, i'd feel uncomfortable floating so many minerals early on, those minerals my enemy would have turned into Units instead of banking. Any ideas? or is it not needed, and you should just try to force the All in? - Also if it is all in, why not bring probes in on that 1/2/3/4 production cycle? If you are going to GG if it doesnt do the damage you want, you might as well bring probes in. Building cannons is never really what you want to be doing. Unless you desperately need them for detection or plan to push out and leave mineral lines undefended against air harass that you KNOW is coming, then they're never the right move imo. Keeping your minerals low, whilst never a bad thing to be doing, doesn't really apply in the opening stage of a 4 warp gate. The whole idea is to trickle out a few units, then suddenly spike a large amount. Floating resources helps to do this and is necessary to keep all 4 gates ticking over. Pulling probes is rarely a good idea when 4 gating imo. Whilst it is a very rigid build and can be tech countered in numerous ways, not winning early is not always GG. It's the same with various other forms of rigid all-in-ish builds, 5 Rax or Roach rushes for example. A decent player should be able to tell if their push will work or not. A simple retreat and expand -> tech is a viable option. Admittedly you will still often lose. However many many players have the same mentality the OP seems to have, which is that these builds are easily crushed by a counter, which is only the case if they keep trying to force the win, long after they should have realized it won't win them the game there and then. (and lose an unnecessarily large amount of units as a result) | ||
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kidd
United States2848 Posts
On September 28 2010 03:03 K Love wrote: Haha, a guy who thinks 4-gate is cheese. How cute! I never said it's cheese, I referred to it as a cheesy strategy which is similar to a cheese strategy defined basically as something unconventional/sneaky to catch your opponent off guard which is all a 4WARPgate push is especially since you give up tech/econ and one of the staples of it is proxying a pylon to spawn units close or inside an enemy base. Proxies are cheese - just because a feature in the game encourages it, and a lot of people do it, or the fact that it isn't at the very beginning of the game doesn't stop it from being cheesy. | ||
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K Love
Australia45 Posts
On September 28 2010 04:07 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: see and how many agreed on it. 4gating requires pretty much no skill at all but requires quite some to defend in pvp/zvp. thats why you see so many terrible P players high in the ladder. and you 4gate for the frontload of units, because you couldnt recover from any slipups with 3gates and you dont have to spend all your crono on gates. for 150 minerals thats the obvious choice. it just works out really well with the production and makes it kinda failproof. also if one ressource stacks up you can easily burn thru it (oh 250/300? 3 sentrys 1 zealot! instead of 2 stalkers). 4gates is the correct normal amount for the push. ...is this a joke? So 'skill-less' protoss players a high on the ladder because their strategy takes less 'skill' than others, not because the other players aren't skilled enough to counter it? | ||
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tGhOeOoDry
United States48 Posts
1) Once the attack starts, I sometimes cut probes. 2) Once the attack starts, I am losing units constantly and can cut pylons. 3) If I don't want to lose, I micro my attack. Lacking 120+ APM, it's best for me to warp in rounds of units, rather than each unit one at a time. So, when I warp in a round of 2 zealots and 2 stalkers, I wait for the stalker cooldown to finish before warping in more units. Not optimal, but MUCH easier. 4) Before the attack starts, I have extra recources. The fourth gate (which cost only 150 minerals) allows me to burn those resources in a productive way. Those are the in-game realities that make the 4gate build work. I do love me my theorycraft, but first we develop the theories and then we test them. And, under in-game conditions, the 4gate wins. If you don't believe me, you play 3gate and I'll play 4gate. tGhOeOoDry.233 I promise I'll beat you. (Although, against competent P, 4gate always loses to 2gate robo, but that's a different discussion). I think that what you've stumbled on is a wonderful timing for an expansion: it is possible to constantly produce out of three warpgates and you'll end up only needing to cut something like one zealot to get an expansion up. Then you'll have an expansion and a boatload of units to defend it. Pretty nice, really. Oh, and that link is pretty cool. I'm definitely going to play around with it. | ||
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fAnTaCy
United States893 Posts
On September 28 2010 04:11 K Love wrote: ...is this a joke? So 'skill-less' protoss players a high on the ladder because their strategy takes less 'skill' than others, not because the other players aren't skilled enough to counter it? Uh no he's pretty much right. A good number of high rating protoss players only 4 gate and nothing else and when it fails they fail and lose pretty hard because that's all the know, and it's the easiest protoss build to do because it pretty much takes next to no skill. | ||
skipdog172
United States331 Posts
On September 28 2010 00:15 Scrimpton wrote: This is the conclusion i came to as well, but i guess it's more about that "shock value" of the extra unit in the enemy base. 4 units per cycle is a lot nicer than 3. It's the pylon in the base that makes all the difference I guess, being able to bypass the wall means every unit counts early on, since even thought with 3 gate u can make the same amount of numers and run them in from outside, this is all about warping INSIDE the base all at once. Doesn't stop this play from being terrible against anybody who scouts for pylons in their base i guess. Still feels flimsy, and the number of people not scouting their base and immediate proxy locations these days must be very low. You really need to just go 4gate some people. Then go 3gate some people. Notice how you can't spend your money and translate all of your resources into an army for a proper timing attack. 4gate isn't some gimmick that is stopped by somebody scouting your pylon. They can't attack your pylon because there is an army attacking their front. They are only killing your pylon after they have pretty much fended off the attack. 4gate truly isn't terrible against anybody who scouts. It is still used in high level play when somebody feels like an all-in move will give them the best chance to win. The notion that "all the good players know how to stop it" just isn't true. It is just an effective timing attack that really has the potential to work against opponents of any level if you micro effectively. Your numbers simply don't add up when you do the actual build no matter how perfect your macro is. Go 3gate somebody and post a replay. | ||
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K Love
Australia45 Posts
On September 28 2010 04:11 kidd wrote: I never said it's cheese, I referred to it as a cheesy strategy which is similar to a cheese strategy defined basically as something unconventional/sneaky to catch your opponent off guard which is all a 4WARPgate push is especially since you give up tech/econ and one of the staples of it is proxying a pylon to spawn units close or inside an enemy base. Proxies are cheese - just because a feature in the game encourages it, and a lot of people do it, or the fact that it isn't at the very beginning of the game doesn't stop it from being cheesy. Back up your own point for god's sake.. Nobody wants to hear this 'difference between cheese and cheesy' nonsense. How is it unconventional and sneaky if everyone does it and it's so easy to scout? You don't have to give up economy at all, I don't understand what you mean. If you think anything sneaky is cheese in the first place, you're probably another person not suited to strategy games. Hahahaha, you think building a proxy pylon is cheese now? Because it has 'proxy' in it's name? Like proxy cannons or gateways? Dude, I know what you mean though, proxy pylons are so risky and all-in, definitely cheesy. You lose a whole 100 minerals if the proxy fails. Game-breaker. | ||
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