EPTMoreso, you usually get to trade units and you don't have to make that many pylons. I've found myself able to support chrono + 4warpgates at times due to that.
Why is 4gate so popular? - Page 6
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Soulforged
Latvia934 Posts
Moreso, you usually get to trade units and you don't have to make that many pylons. I've found myself able to support chrono + 4warpgates at times due to that. | ||
|
funk100
United Kingdom172 Posts
bassically saying that you can make up for your crappy macro with 4 | ||
|
Scrimpton
United Kingdom465 Posts
On September 28 2010 01:53 volders wrote: I messed around with the calculator, if you cut production of probes, take out pylons (some are usually stockpiled before warpgates are up and you lose units in battle obviously) and build at a 3:2:1 Zealot/Stalker/Sentry ratio you get 98%/117% Mineral/Gas consumption. Usually you have a bit of extra gas before the gates are up so it doesn't seem all that unreasonable since macro won't be instantaneous and with the little bit extra minerals you should be able to squeeze out required pylons. Hmm, yeah i've just replicated this to check, and it seems pretty damn reasonable. The units lost reducing the need for pylons probably balances out almost exactly, and that gas deficit would take at LEAST 5 production cycles to break even. Nice find there man! - So, using this ratio you can pretty much constantly produce for a long time not really all in at all. I wonder why then, that when i manage to push back the initial 4gate push, people instantly quit or GG so often, it's almost as if they believe they were all in, when maybe they weren't (i certainly thought they definitely were, but if you are right, then wow. pretty slick) | ||
|
Bleb
Croatia278 Posts
4 warpgate is easiest way for a protoss player to get into diamond league It's feels natural and macroing is easy with that build... It's probably easiest build to master Why won't you lack resources for it? - because you'll have some resources saved up when your wg tech is about to pop - because you can dance between units to adapt to resource status (sentries for gass, zealots for minerals) - because you won't macro perfectly (you'll miss a sec or two... probably more cause you'll be focusing on attacking your opponent) - because you'll attack with your units therefore you'll use some units -> you won't have to build pylon (that program counts pylon building into price) ps I don't like that program... numbers are evil too | ||
|
K Love
Australia45 Posts
Someone tell me, what do you mean 4gate every game? In actual higher level play the 4gate is awful vs terran (countered by a bunker, lol? or 1 banshee) and difficult vs protoss (you lose if they forcefield their ramp). To the whiney zerg players: if you want to expand in the first few minutes of the game, something the other races can't hope to do, then not even build defenses and actually cry when you get killed by units *gasp*, strategy might not be for you. 4gate is strong against horrendous players, don't point your fingers at the protoss players that actually have skill. - 4gating all day vs zerg | ||
|
Scrimpton
United Kingdom465 Posts
On September 28 2010 01:57 Soulforged wrote: You're saving minerals while the gateways are being build; You're saving gas unitl warpgate's done unless you're massing sentries off your 1 gate. The best way to spend it off ~2 waves is to have 4 warpgates. Since it's pretty all-inish, 2 benefitial units in pack of now ~11 units is important for the timing attack. Moreso, you usually get to trade units and you don't have to make that many pylons. I've found myself able to support chrono + 4warpgates at times due to that. Yeah, same conclusion that the guy just 2 posts back made as well, and it looks like this is exactly why it does work, the constant loss of units meaning you can keep producing. I suppose the difference between the average 4gater I come up against and a good 4gate user is that they can make each loss "worth more" due to proper micro. Cool, genuinely learnt something from this thread. :D Thanks a lot | ||
|
kmkkmk
Germany418 Posts
On September 27 2010 23:26 Scrimpton wrote: Considering that the famous 4warpgate uses 48% more minerals, and 37% more gas than a fully saturated base can mine, why is 4gate such a popular strategy. In a game all about efficiency and solid economic play it seems counter intuitive to me. I think that one stops probe production. Furthermore the tool wants to build 5 units from the warpgates. Also think of the tester strategy where you get around 500 minerals which is enough for 4 zealords + pylon for every round of warp in. (I don't know how much difference the patch makes). | ||
|
RyuChus
Canada442 Posts
On September 27 2010 23:33 Butigroove wrote:
With BBcode for more lols. This. It's just too easy to do. It's hard to deal with as well. You just hope to find their proxy pylon before you die horribly. Someone tell me, what do you mean 4gate every game? In actual higher level play the 4gate is awful vs terran (countered by a bunker, lol? or 1 banshee) and difficult vs protoss (you lose if they forcefield their ramp). Really? One bunker, shuts down a 4 warpgate? Actually, yeah. Banshee I'm not too sure about. The best thing is to find the proxy pylon, destroy it and pray there isn't another, or you get horribly killed.  | ||
|
st3roids
Greece538 Posts
| ||
|
darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
The same question could be asked of 3 gates and a robo, instead of 2. | ||
|
nka203
United States102 Posts
don't sit there counting probes and mineral patches. | ||
|
K Love
Australia45 Posts
On September 28 2010 02:13 RyuChus wrote: This. It's just too easy to do. It's hard to deal with as well. You just hope to find their proxy pylon before you die horribly. Really? One bunker, shuts down a 4 warpgate? Actually, yeah. Banshee I'm not too sure about. The best thing is to find the proxy pylon, destroy it and pray there isn't another, or you get horribly killed. Well, if it's properly positioned, with repair. It's easy to have a few other units to help anyway. If protoss go 4 gate they won't be able to afford a robo, at all, so a cloaked banshee will kill half their probes before they run out of energy. As long as the pylon isn't actually inside your base, I'd consider it near-useless, a free kill as terran when you move out. | ||
|
Scrimpton
United Kingdom465 Posts
On September 28 2010 02:29 nka203 wrote: yawn.. play more and you'll know exactly how many buildings you need as well as everything else. stop doing math, its a video game you get better by playing. don't sit there counting probes and mineral patches. Yeah the whole point of a forum is to not discuss the game. Good point mate, shouldn't you be playing the game instead of typing? fuck me... | ||
|
K Love
Australia45 Posts
On September 28 2010 02:27 darmousseh wrote: The biggest reason I make 4 gates on a single base is because saturation happens before you are able to get 4 gates up. 1st gate on 13, 2nd gate around 20, 3rd gate around 30, 4th gate around 40. So for about 3-4 minutes you are under producing, usually which involves investing in expansions or teching. If you built the gates all at the same time immediately, then you would only need 3 + chrono boosting, however, in many situations it is ideal warp in 4 units instead of 3 simply because of dealing with harass. If there is a drop in your main, then warping in 4 units is 33% better than warping in 3. The idea definitely is to build as few production buildings as possible, but the extra security and the more friendly requirements on apm, means most build 4 gates. The same question could be asked of 3 gates and a robo, instead of 2. Well yeah. Even if you produce constantly out of your gates, which I, of course, do, before warp is done, there will still be a build-up of minerals before you can get out the first wave, and will flow on to the second. This means 4 gates will almost always let you get out more units, plus you'll be building another gate in the near future anyway. I dis-agree with the 3-gate robo thing, I would only ever do that in a PvP if I was really worried about a 4-gate on a map with a wide ramp. Otherwise, there shouldn't be a pile-up of minerals like there is with the 4-gate because the gate research doesn't cause as much of a hiccup, plus it costs more to produce out of a robo than a gate anyway. Certainly in PvT I start with 2 gate robo, not 3. | ||
|
Scrimpton
United Kingdom465 Posts
Perhaps a forge with a cannon or 2 to stop the counter attack when the 4gate fails? - Pure mineral usage, gets rid of that pile up. I always try to just keep my money low, constantly producing, i'd feel uncomfortable floating so many minerals early on, those minerals my enemy would have turned into Units instead of banking. Any ideas? or is it not needed, and you should just try to force the All in? - Also if it is all in, why not bring probes in on that 1/2/3/4 production cycle? If you are going to GG if it doesnt do the damage you want, you might as well bring probes in. | ||
|
Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 27 2010 23:33 Butigroove wrote:
With BBcode for more lols. This post needs to be quoted more. At my 1100+ Diamond though I am seeing fewer 4 gates these days. I think more and more people are figuring out how to block them so they either learn new strategies or lose a bunch of games. | ||
|
kidd
United States2848 Posts
| ||
|
K Love
Australia45 Posts
On September 28 2010 02:57 kidd wrote: I didn't finish reading the thread, but it's an all in build where you do 1 gate core, fast warp gates then adding 3 more gates so you have additional resources to use the 4 gates efficiently, but it's also all in because if the push fails, you have no tech and no units. I don't really get why there's still a discussion. Let's ask why people ever use any cheesy strategy, they're all inefficient in the long run - that's not the point. Haha, a guy who thinks 4-gate is cheese. How cute! | ||
|
fAnTaCy
United States893 Posts
On September 28 2010 03:03 K Love wrote: Haha, a guy who thinks 4-gate is cheese. How cute! Haha, a guy who this 4-gate takes skill. How cute | ||
|
ghermination
United States2851 Posts
I find myself going 2 gate or 3 gate robo as i get better and move up the ladder because with smart chrono boosting of gates/robo you can maintain the same production rate as 4gate and still be able to take an expand without losing. | ||
| ||
