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On September 28 2010 00:02 BallsOfSteel wrote:Show nested quote +Hmm, Maybe i should abandon ship this thread, i really didn't want to create a place for people to whine about how easy X strategy is to pull off compared to Y, This was purely intended to understand why some players are actively choosing to (in my opinion) ignore the base fundamentals of the game. (being smooth, 100% uptime on buildings)
If mathematically speaking it's more than possible to create the same amount of units off of 3 gates as it is 4 (this doesnt even require perfect macro, there is a 20% lack of minerals to support even 3 gates) it just comes across as counter productive.
Although i do understand the "but man, you can warp in 4 units at a time!!!" (even if this requires terrible macro to pull off, without going for pure Zealot sentry) You are right, 3 Gates would be more affordable than 4, but that isn't really the point of this particular build. The 4 Warpgate strategy is all about the explosive opening and being extremely aggressive early in the game. If you manage to get a Pylon completed inside the enemy's base then "you can warp in 4 units at a time!!!" which is a significant advantage over 3 at a time. Some people like to open with a 2Gate proxy build very close to an opponent's base, but this risks significantly more resources and production as well. So, another reason why so many people like this build is that it takes out a lot of the risk involved of making proxy buildings near or in an enemy's base. You only risk the resources used for Pylons. I think that when people use the Warpgate strategy, the reason they do specifically 4 Gates is because "that's how I saw some pro do it on Youtube." I prefer to start with 4 Warpgates, making the first round only Stalkers, then quickly add another 2 Gates and mass Zealots. This is because, by making the Stalkers, most opponents would switch over to units that counter the Stalkers (Marauder for Terran, Zerglings for Zerg), which get countered by my following waves of Zealots.
interesting post, but other than in a Zero micro situation, when do Zealots counter marauders? :S
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On September 27 2010 23:58 Scrimpton wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2010 23:54 Elwar wrote:
The calculator in the OP does not take into account stockpiled resources, particularly gas, that will accumulate before your warp-gate research is complete. Thats a big factor IMO that you are overlooking. Hasn't been overlooked, and indeed reading the thread will show that this has been factored in on page one, and that at the time determined that this only seems to allow a maximum of an extra 2 production cycles at 100% uptime. in my opinion, read the thread :D. Still while I still think it's an altogether flimsy strategy to pull on a decent player, at least now I know I'm not alone in thinking that it's bad, and sub optimal at best. The argument "pro's do it" is also kinda feeble, can't remember who posted it, but man i'm sorry to have to tell you, sometimes your parents lied to you to make you feel better  Santa isn't real, and sometimes Professionals in all fields get things wrong (but i do give credit to the fact that you get that +1 unit out per cycle for those first few cycles). Makes me think that 4gate is super vulnerable to cheese if the consensus is that players aren't building many units prior to the completion of warp gate tech.
No, you are overlooking it, because you are not actually taking it into consideration but merely saying its not a factor past the first two cycles which is untrue.
You will not be able to spend the excess minerals/gas you accumulate before a 3-gate for a VERY long time with perfect macro.
Gateways take a long time to build (in which you will acquire 910 minerals and 250 gas in that time according to the site you linked), and without a fourth gate you will have even more excess minerals and be relying on near-perfect macro and many production cycles to spend the resources = much smaller army or much longer push time.
Don't assume that you've suddenly found a very big fault in one of the most common strategies in the game.
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The OP wrote:
A 3gate is 118% mineral consumption and 103% gas consumption, this seems much more reasonable. Obviously nobody has "perfect" macro, we are only human after all.. but 4gate just seems over the top, you just cannot mine enough minerals to produce out of all the gates, and the shortage just seems so significant, that I'm not sure why 3 gate isn't used instead, i Don;t think it takes much for a competent player to reduce number of gates by 1, whilst keeping the unit production at the same level.
The Reason to use a fourth gate is to give the player more time to micro... if you have just three gates and you fail to warp in units in the exact moment the cooldown runs out it hurts much more than if you had 4 gates. If you miss the cooldown your minerals stockpile enough to warp in 4 units instead wich makes up for the lost time....
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On September 28 2010 00:09 Elwar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2010 23:58 Scrimpton wrote:On September 27 2010 23:54 Elwar wrote:
The calculator in the OP does not take into account stockpiled resources, particularly gas, that will accumulate before your warp-gate research is complete. Thats a big factor IMO that you are overlooking. Hasn't been overlooked, and indeed reading the thread will show that this has been factored in on page one, and that at the time determined that this only seems to allow a maximum of an extra 2 production cycles at 100% uptime. in my opinion, read the thread :D. Still while I still think it's an altogether flimsy strategy to pull on a decent player, at least now I know I'm not alone in thinking that it's bad, and sub optimal at best. The argument "pro's do it" is also kinda feeble, can't remember who posted it, but man i'm sorry to have to tell you, sometimes your parents lied to you to make you feel better Santa isn't real, and sometimes Professionals in all fields get things wrong (but i do give credit to the fact that you get that +1 unit out per cycle for those first few cycles). Makes me think that 4gate is super vulnerable to cheese if the consensus is that players aren't building many units prior to the completion of warp gate tech. No, you are overlooking it, because you are not actually taking it into consideration but merely saying its not a factor past the first two cycles which is untrue. You will not be able to spend the excess minerals/gas you accumulate before a 3-gate for a VERY long time with perfect macro. Gateways take a long time to build (in which you will acquire 910 minerals and 250 gas in that time according to the site you linked), you without a fourth gate you will have even more excess minerals and be relying on near-perfect macro and many production cycles to spend the resources = much smaller army or much longer push time. Don't assume that you've suddenly found a very big fault in one of the most common strategies in the game.
Fair one, is this 910 mineral surplus around when constantly producing out of the gates that are up, or is floating 1k minerals early and leaving yourself open to attack considered good now? (although saying this i can see how the sentry delaying tactic builds into the amazingness of Protoss)
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# Easy as fuck.
# Strong as hell.
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On September 27 2010 23:45 Scrimpton wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2010 23:39 stk01001 wrote:
I don't play toss much, but every time I've ever done 4 gate I know for a fact that all 4 of the gateways are being used almost constantly. I'm not sure where your getting your numbers from, but even if in theory you can't optimally utilize 4 gates off 1 base (still not sure thats even true?) no one is going to have perfect macro. Minerals pile up, chrono boost piles up, and I can guarantee you having that 4th gateway has meant the difference between busting someone's front down and not in countless games.. I mean I've seen Huk and other toss players even go 5 gates off one base...
If your arguing that you can apply just as much pressure with 3 gates as 4 I gotta say I totally disagree with you.. I mean I'm pretty sure all of the top players would have realized this by now and 3 gate would be the standard IF what you are saying is true..
People keep questioning where I got my statistics from. - EVEN THOUGH I provided a direct link and acknowledgement to the creator of the website where I got my data from, (on top of in game testing) In my OP. Strange world.
OK fine.. even if your statistics are right it still has nothing to do with the point I'm making in my post... which is still legitimite and true.. it's the same point Weltraummonsters just made in his post above. If your trying to argue that 3 gate would be a more effective at applying pressure & winning off of one base it's just not true..
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[QUOTE]On September 28 2010 00:07 Scrimpton wrote:
[QUOTE]On September 28 2010 00:00 KirbyToss wrote:
[QUOTE]On September 27 2010 23:50 Scrimpton wrote:
[QUOTE]On September 27 2010 23:47 KirbyToss wrote:
[QUOTE]On September 27 2010 23:41 Scrimpton wrote:
[QUOTE]On September 27 2010 23:38 KirbyToss wrote:
All I can say is that I have never had a problem with this build and stats are just numbers.  I would be happy to show you what I can do with a 4gate macro build though.[/QUOTE]
I'm not even sure where you are going with this post.
"stats are just numbers" - is that even an argument? If your argument is that:
"despite 4gate being economically unstable at best, it's ease of use in allowing you to take less punishment from missing production cycles makes up for this, allowing me to keep pressure on"
Then i'd have to say i'm understanding you.
However, from your post all i can gather is "wut number??"[/QUOTE]
From the way your talking about production cycles and perfect macro I am assuming you are simulating a robot playing, going 4warpgate, and producing 4 units every chance it gets, which is quite amusing because if any build requires cut units in order to accomplish what your doing. Such as tech, production or expanding.[/QUOTE]
Other than the fact that 4gate isn't known for being used in able to effectively transition, i agree with you.
However because this discussion is infact about 4gate, and not transition based econimally friendly builds, I still feel that "i'm right and you are wrong" :D. If I was expecting 100% upkeep and within 1-2% of the minerals/gas mined then maybe your robot argument might be correct, however in this case, we are talking about a 50% mineral shortage, that's not a case of robot vs human. That's a case of Lazy vs Skilled.
Moving on, those extra units in the initial push from the 4gate, can't they be built from gates 1-2-3 from the money and time saved by not waiting for 4 gates? probably not.
This leads me back to an earlier thought "considering so many people can deal with 4 gate well now, why is it still so popular?" - and i guess the answer is, for every player who puts in the effort learning how to deal with this strategy, and similar early pushes, there's 100 players who don't have a clue.
[/QUOTE]
I guess I am in the boat of "I keep on doing this and winning" and others have it differently. ^_^ Guess I'm just playing the wrong people.
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The problem with this whole discussion is that it is theorycrafting. The rule sets that has been laid down by the OP aren't the same rules sets that exists in reality when you play the game so it doesn't really relate. Sure it might be a nice topic to speculate about but it won't really be useful in the actual game.
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On September 28 2010 00:10 weltraumMonster wrote:The OP wrote: Show nested quote +
A 3gate is 118% mineral consumption and 103% gas consumption, this seems much more reasonable. Obviously nobody has "perfect" macro, we are only human after all.. but 4gate just seems over the top, you just cannot mine enough minerals to produce out of all the gates, and the shortage just seems so significant, that I'm not sure why 3 gate isn't used instead, i Don;t think it takes much for a competent player to reduce number of gates by 1, whilst keeping the unit production at the same level.
The Reason to use a fourth gate is to give the player more time to micro... if you have just three gates and you fail to warp in units in the exact moment the cooldown runs out it hurts much more than if you had 4 gates. If you miss the cooldown your minerals stockpile enough to warp in 4 units instead wich makes up for the lost time....
This is the conclusion i came to as well, but i guess it's more about that "shock value" of the extra unit in the enemy base. 4 units per cycle is a lot nicer than 3.
It's the pylon in the base that makes all the difference I guess, being able to bypass the wall means every unit counts early on, since even thought with 3 gate u can make the same amount of numers and run them in from outside, this is all about warping INSIDE the base all at once.
Doesn't stop this play from being terrible against anybody who scouts for pylons in their base i guess. Still feels flimsy, and the number of people not scouting their base and immediate proxy locations these days must be very low.
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It's so popular because of how simple it is (or maybe the correct word is was, pre 1.1) to pull off. Especially in lower leagues where the opponent has to be extremely prepared for the 4 gate in order to stop it. So in most cases they aren't prepared and can win the game out-right.
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You 4 gate because you stockpile resources as warpgate tech finishes.
You need the 4 gate to spend all the money for the first 4 or so warp ins.
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On September 28 2010 00:12 Scrimpton wrote:
Fair one, is this 910 mineral surplus around when constantly producing out of the gates that are up, or is floating 1k minerals early and leaving yourself open to attack considered good now? (although saying this i can see how the sentry delaying tactic builds into the amazingness of Protoss)
You will build out your one gate, as well as producing pylons and probes during that time, but you will have the excess to exploit the warpgates immediately. More excess than 3-gate can burn-off for a while. Thats the point. I feel like you are ignoring the reality of how the build is been played (of which you can find a million examples on youtube).
Instead of simply theory-crafting and insisting it works out, why don't you provide replays of you doing a 3-gate with the potency of a 4-gate within a normal push-timing, or at least go into a build-order tester and see if it can actually work 'in theory'.
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Hmm, well thanks for the discussion so far @ RinconH i'm still not "happy" about this "stockpiling is ok" it just doesn't sit well with my view of the game, although obviously it is working for some people.
I've always thought "money low, check supply, build workers, build units" keeping that money low has always been a big part of my gameplay. I suppose it's just a gamble that pays off against the vast majority who aren't prepared.
I can imagine it being useful in the pro scene if for example, you are known as a straight up macro player, and you want a possible quick win at the end of a best of 3/5/7. I wonder how it would be best to exploit that window where the P is stockpiling..
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You main zerg. You never stockpile gas so that as soon as your spire finishes, you can have a bunch of mutas on the way?
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On September 28 2010 00:18 Elwar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 00:12 Scrimpton wrote:
Fair one, is this 910 mineral surplus around when constantly producing out of the gates that are up, or is floating 1k minerals early and leaving yourself open to attack considered good now? (although saying this i can see how the sentry delaying tactic builds into the amazingness of Protoss)
You will build out your one gate, as well as producing pylons and probes during that time, but you will have the excess to exploit the warpgates immediately. More excess than 3-gate can burn-off for a while. Thats the point. I feel like you are ignoring the reality of how the build is been played (of which you can find a million examples on youtube). Instead of simply theory-crafting and insisting it works out, why don't you provide replays of you doing a 3-gate with the potency of a 4-gate within a normal push-timing, or at least go into a build-order tester and see if it can actually work 'in theory'.
I'm not claiming to have the answers, I put my observations out in the public domain, because as I say, i'm curious about it as a Z player who generally wins the majority of games I get 4gated against.
infact i think in post 2 I said I'm very happy to be proven wrong, don't get narky with me over it ;D.
Maybe because of the ladder format it's much easier to constantly get away with it. I usually play best of 3's with people of equal or higher skill than me, and in this scenario constantly trying to All in just never works out. (for more than one game out of a set anyway)
maybe this works so well simply because of the anonymity of the current ladder system. and i have to concede that it's still a great strategy to pull out for when you want to end a game quickly, or simply just play with your opponents head.
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On September 28 2010 00:12 Scrimpton wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 00:09 Elwar wrote:On September 27 2010 23:58 Scrimpton wrote:On September 27 2010 23:54 Elwar wrote:
The calculator in the OP does not take into account stockpiled resources, particularly gas, that will accumulate before your warp-gate research is complete. Thats a big factor IMO that you are overlooking. Hasn't been overlooked, and indeed reading the thread will show that this has been factored in on page one, and that at the time determined that this only seems to allow a maximum of an extra 2 production cycles at 100% uptime. in my opinion, read the thread :D. Still while I still think it's an altogether flimsy strategy to pull on a decent player, at least now I know I'm not alone in thinking that it's bad, and sub optimal at best. The argument "pro's do it" is also kinda feeble, can't remember who posted it, but man i'm sorry to have to tell you, sometimes your parents lied to you to make you feel better Santa isn't real, and sometimes Professionals in all fields get things wrong (but i do give credit to the fact that you get that +1 unit out per cycle for those first few cycles). Makes me think that 4gate is super vulnerable to cheese if the consensus is that players aren't building many units prior to the completion of warp gate tech. No, you are overlooking it, because you are not actually taking it into consideration but merely saying its not a factor past the first two cycles which is untrue. You will not be able to spend the excess minerals/gas you accumulate before a 3-gate for a VERY long time with perfect macro. Gateways take a long time to build (in which you will acquire 910 minerals and 250 gas in that time according to the site you linked), you without a fourth gate you will have even more excess minerals and be relying on near-perfect macro and many production cycles to spend the resources = much smaller army or much longer push time. Don't assume that you've suddenly found a very big fault in one of the most common strategies in the game. Fair one, is this 910 mineral surplus around when constantly producing out of the gates that are up, or is floating 1k minerals early and leaving yourself open to attack considered good now? (although saying this i can see how the sentry delaying tactic builds into the amazingness of Protoss)
I think every thing to explain why it works even though you can't theoretically support it has been answered :
- It's an all-in build where you aim for explosive macro at 1 point of time
- You start with unspent min and gaz which gives you a few rounds before getting broke
- It gives you a bit of latitude for sloppy macro while concentrating on your micro
- Since you attack and try to kill, you often stop making probes and stop making pylons (you are losing more units then you are producing)
But yes it is not optimal in the long run and you need to at least damage your opponent if you want to win.
It also doesn't fair well against early aggressive builds or Dt rush for example.
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On September 28 2010 00:17 RinconH wrote:
You 4 gate because you stockpile resources as warpgate tech finishes.
You need the 4 gate to spend all the money for the first 4 or so warp ins.
On September 28 2010 00:10 weltraumMonster wrote:The OP wrote: Show nested quote +
A 3gate is 118% mineral consumption and 103% gas consumption, this seems much more reasonable. Obviously nobody has "perfect" macro, we are only human after all.. but 4gate just seems over the top, you just cannot mine enough minerals to produce out of all the gates, and the shortage just seems so significant, that I'm not sure why 3 gate isn't used instead, i Don;t think it takes much for a competent player to reduce number of gates by 1, whilst keeping the unit production at the same level.
The Reason to use a fourth gate is to give the player more time to micro... if you have just three gates and you fail to warp in units in the exact moment the cooldown runs out it hurts much more than if you had 4 gates. If you miss the cooldown your minerals stockpile enough to warp in 4 units instead wich makes up for the lost time....
The answer lies somewhere between these two. It's a lot more forgiving. Plus, if you start diversifying your unit composition, you can pump 4 at a time.
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On September 28 2010 00:24 Pyrthas wrote:
You main zerg. You never stockpile gas so that as soon as your spire finishes, you can have a bunch of mutas on the way?
at first this seemed like such a good clever argument, but after a second of thought, i realised how terrible it was .
the difference is, stockpiling gas purely for muta's is a decision I'd make after scouting, once I had a stable economy, enough units to stay alive with, i'd probably be on at least 2 bases. It wouldn't be all in, and I could easily recover from a failed push.
Nice try though! i liekd the effort ;D
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I don't understand why there still is a discussion.
1) The math is wrong, or at least irrelevant , since what matters is how fast you get the units, not how efficient and smooth the process is. Even if you use your last gate 25% of the time it's still worth it.
2)You have to compare to the alternative, and with 3 gates you can't use all your money on units. For an all-in, it is thus inferior.
Again, just play versus easy AI and see how many units you can buy during the push with 4gate vs 3gate.
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That calculaton looks really iffy to me. Also your figures in the OP are based on a 4 gate that is constantly producing probes (24 assumed mining already with 2 gas) and producing zealots, stalkers and sentries on a 2 2 1 ratio which is just well wrong really because thats not really a mix I often see with a 4 gate I often see zealot sentry mix or a stalker zealot with one or two sentries and those builds would see a different cost ratio. 4 gates often cut probes at one point in order to go for a particular timing. Also if you are continuing to produce probes then they gradually add to the probes mining they dont just sit there doing nothing which is what this calulator assumes from what I can see.
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EPT
