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On September 01 2010 06:24 Craton wrote:
So from what I can see by testing with an archon vs a roach&tank is that splash damage is calculated solely based on the primary target and appears to have no bearing on targets taking splash. In other words, a tank shooting an armored unit in 1.1 will still do splash damage based around dealing 50 damage, not based on a base of 35 vs non-armored, even if the secondary units being hit are not armored.
In the tests the splash was dealing ~1/3 of the base damage consistently, so the a direct hit to the roach would deal 34 (35-1) and 12 to the tank, while a direct hit to the tank would do 24 (25-1) to the tank and only 8 to the roach. You would expect the reverse if the splash damage were calculated per-unit, and not based on the primary target.
Its seems like the effect of the tank nerf will be non-existant in many situations.
Edit: Arghs misread you post and made a fool of myself. Well iam just gonna make a new one then:
I think you might have misread those numbers. I'll try to explain myself:
As far as i know there are 3 splash radi one for 100% splash one for 50% and one for 25%.
Now the roach is a lot smaller than the tank so a tank right next to it might get into the 50% range which would be 0.5*25 12.5, rounded to 13 -1 armor makes 12 so just the number but acually calculated off the damage for non-bio units.
Now the tank is a lot bigger so probably the roach only gets into the 25% radius which would make 0.25*35=8.75 rounded up 9 -1 armor gets you the 8 out of your test but calculated off the damage for bio units.
So in fact i think the numbers out of your test actually prove that the damage splashed depends on the units splashed as well and not only the main unit 
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The +5 second time on Reapers is atrocious. How about making it more than 50/50 for speed upgrade? Marauder's 50/50 upgrade for shells is so retarded as well.
Zealots speed upgrade cost 200/200 in tier 2 stages and is a cooldown ability. HUH? WHAT? I don't even play Protoss and that's retarded.
Make both upgrades for Reapers 100/100 and 125/125 for Marauders and we're almost even.
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On September 01 2010 06:53 universalwill wrote:
even after the patch, terran will still be at the point where, if in the hands of a truly competent player, will never lose.
MLG results:
+ Show Spoiler +
1. Protoss
2. Protoss
3. Protoss
TvP and TvZ might be in favor of terran, but its not like terran wins always no matter what.
Current sc2ranks.com stats for global diamond leage:
TvP in favor of Terran for 0.30% more wins thans loses (50.30% to 49.70%)
TvZ in favor of Terran for 0.47% more wins thans loses (50.47% to 49.53%)
Yeah, i know all those weird reasonings, where at the end some protoss/zerg guy concludes that terran can still be totaly op without the stats have to show it. But as i dont want to say that terran is not op, i dont care about these too much.
All i want to say is that terran players are far away from free wins and that small nerfs here and there should be enough. And with blizzard not touching mmm for a pretty long time now, they seem to agree with me.
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On August 31 2010 21:04 Butigroove wrote:Takes one more shot to kill infestors.
and OH GNOES tanks kill queens slower lol...
Hardly a nerf at all vs zerg. :S
That's actually a VERY crucial point. As of now it's basically impossible to counter a terran going just marines/tanks, save for broodlords that you won't get anytime soon when he pushes out.
Infestors getting 1-shotted destroys your ability to do anything; Drop a few infested terrans in the middle of his ball so he kills his own troops; Fungi here and there, etc.
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On September 01 2010 06:24 Craton wrote:
So from what I can see by testing with an archon vs a roach&tank is that splash damage is calculated solely based on the primary target and appears to have no bearing on targets taking splash. In other words, a tank shooting an armored unit in 1.1 will still do splash damage based around dealing 50 damage, not based on a base of 35 vs non-armored, even if the secondary units being hit are not armored.
In the tests the splash was dealing ~1/3 of the base damage consistently, so the a direct hit to the roach would deal 34 (35-1) and 12 to the tank, while a direct hit to the tank would do 24 (25-1) to the tank and only 8 to the roach. You would expect the reverse if the splash damage were calculated per-unit, and not based on the primary target.
Its seems like the effect of the tank nerf will be non-existant in many situations.
Splash does NOT depend on the main target. The bonus damage is calculated individually for each unit.
There is also no 1/3 splash on any attack in the game.
The splash ranges are typically 100%, 50% and 25%
The PF has 100%, 75% and 37.5%
The tank simply takes 50% in the first case and the roach takes 25% in the second case, since the roach is further away from the center of the splash, due to the larger collision size of the tank.
50% of 25 = 12.5 and 25% of 25+10 = 8.75
This matches your test results, since the health display does not show decimals.
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On September 01 2010 08:29 Grummler wrote:TvP and TvZ might be in favor of terran, but its not like terran wins always no matter what.
that's really not what i'm saying. i'm saying that terran is becoming boring to play against because all they ever need to do is mass marauders.
race balance is a non-issue (or at least immeasurable) on bnet, because as long as you mostly stick to one race, you'll be placed in games against people with a more or less equal chance of winning -- if not equal skill.
we need to get away from the terran is/isn't op stuff.
just because one build/unit/skill is accused of being op doesn't mean that the entire race is being accused of being op; they're two distinct issues.
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im really surprised blizz didnt do something to rauders.
they usually hate people massing 1 unit, or claim to.
but pure marauder is honestly becoming more common every day, they're just so damned strong.
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I like how mostly everyone here is fairly positive about the changes. Everyone on the blizzard page are whining and complaining (which was exactly what they were doing before the patch was announced). I guess you can't please everyone.
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You can add me to the whiners list.
I think they applied a band-aid to a clearly broken limb hoping that will fix it. It won't.
I switched away from Zerg because the changes address nothing that is wrong with the race.
If they ever get around to making meaningful changes, I might switch back. Until then, I'm playing Terran, which with my history in video games is good news! The class/race/whatever I'm playing in a game always either sucks from the beginning or gets nerfed into the ground shortly after I choose it, so Terran nerfs inc!
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On September 01 2010 08:21 TheHuHu wrote:
The +5 second time on Reapers is atrocious. How about making it more than 50/50 for speed upgrade? Marauder's 50/50 upgrade for shells is so retarded as well.
Zealots speed upgrade cost 200/200 in tier 2 stages and is a cooldown ability. HUH? WHAT? I don't even play Protoss and that's retarded.
Make both upgrades for Reapers 100/100 and 125/125 for Marauders and we're almost even.
The point of 50/50 upgrades is to create a time delay before the unit has its increased power, not to give a real cost vs reward decision. It also effects the way you use such units. Do I reveal my reaper/tank/banshee before I get my nitro/seige/cloak or do I keep it hidden (creating a time delay) before my new tech is useful? It's a time sink not a money sink.
Edit:Changed sentence a bit
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On September 01 2010 13:21 DeCoup wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 08:21 TheHuHu wrote:
The +5 second time on Reapers is atrocious. How about making it more than 50/50 for speed upgrade? Marauder's 50/50 upgrade for shells is so retarded as well.
Zealots speed upgrade cost 200/200 in tier 2 stages and is a cooldown ability. HUH? WHAT? I don't even play Protoss and that's retarded.
Make both upgrades for Reapers 100/100 and 125/125 for Marauders and we're almost even. The point of 50/50 upgrades is to create a time delay before the unit has its increased power, not to give a real cost vs reward decision. It also effects the way you use such units. Do I reveal my reaper/tank/banshee before I get my nitro/seige/cloak or do I keep it hidden (creating a time delay) before my new tech is useful? It's a time sink not a money sink. Edit:Changed sentence a bit
unless i'm missing something, time = money, no?
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On September 01 2010 10:42 Subversion wrote:
im really surprised blizz didnt do something to rauders.
they usually hate people massing 1 unit, or claim to.
but pure marauder is honestly becoming more common every day, they're just so damned strong.
There are a million and one counters to pure marauders. Void rays, stalker/zealots, speedlings, hydra...
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Blizzard is taking the wrong approach to "fixing" the problems. It is quite clear that the tiny size of the ladder maps is responsible for many current problems, but admitting that would be a huge blow to "their dreams", so they instead choose the stupid, obvious and totally wrong way to do adjust the game.
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On September 01 2010 16:44 Rabiator wrote:
Blizzard is taking the wrong approach to "fixing" the problems. It is quite clear that the tiny size of the ladder maps is responsible for many current problems, but admitting that would be a huge blow to "their dreams", so they instead choose the stupid, obvious and totally wrong way to do adjust the game.
I hate how so many peolpe think they know the one RIGHT way to fix the game. 'I own the game, I play the game, I KNOW HOW TO FIX THE GAME!!!!!'
There are many factors to balancing a complex game like Starcraft 2, and this is a step in the right direction in balancing the game. This will redress a lot of problems, and no doubt playing styles will adapt and change around how these balanced fixes go.
Most of you forget, this is how Blizzard fine-tuned Starcraft Brood War into such a balance game now.
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On September 01 2010 13:51 Nightfall.589 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 10:42 Subversion wrote:
im really surprised blizz didnt do something to rauders.
they usually hate people massing 1 unit, or claim to.
but pure marauder is honestly becoming more common every day, they're just so damned strong. There are a million and one counters to pure marauders. Void rays, stalker/zealots, speedlings, hydra...
None of that ain't really able to fight a pure Marauder army, juste because Marauders are so damn cheap u will be overun with this kind of units.
Z/P need T2+ or even T3 to fight Marauders, who is kinda sad. I always though Marauders should be " supports slow / high hp " unit to support Marines, not Big beffy Super Marines.
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On August 31 2010 21:19 Scarecrow wrote:
Why can't toss morph a nexus into a planetary citadel? Terran has more mobility with medivacs and the easiest means of taking and defending expo's (float + pf) even without a large standing army. Taking map control doesn't do shit if the terran third and fourth are virtually unkillable by ground whereas ours are incredibly vulnerable cause some genius thought it would be balanced to have mass produced flying medics that double as dropships for tier 1 units that are more cost effective and better than anything we get till tier 3.
950 diamond toss rant.
I'd love to see someone smart (not me) work out which race has the best units overall.
I mean let's look at the gold expansions, who can rape those the best? Z T or P?
Z, definitely not, P - ok you can chrono the probes on there or T - save up your energy and just mule the shit out of the gold expansion.
Then we have mobility, sure the Zerg has the overlords as a dropship, if you pay for the upgrade and they still don't move too quick, plus if the overlord dies - you lose supply. Then you've got Protoss, we have the warp prism, a very cool unit: a little slow, if it gets shot down mid warp in, oh oh.
Then of course Zerg have the nydus, which 99% of players with a clue will find.
What's left? Oh the Terran drop ship, quite fast, heals the damn units to boot - requires a low tech level.
What about a seige unit, do I need to go in to it or should I just mention seige tanks off the bat?
Ok what about scouting, I saw a recent giant thread right here on TL, I believe it was one of the few 'terran OP' threads which wasn't locked - because the author is a progamer, long story short - if I recall he complained about Terran scouting which is also very powerful, you've got the commsat, high speed vikings, high speed hellions and so on.
It seems to me that overall the differences between BW and SC2 are huge and some of the fundamental 'clever stuff' from BW is missing in this game. I realise it's not meant to be an entire rock paper scissors scenario here but when one race can use it's T1 / 1.5 units and beat most players except the high skilled ones, something seems off here.
I think in the very least there needs to be a medivac speed decrease and healing rate decrease, furthermore I'd definitely decrease the marauder attack strength against buildings and increase the cost at least 10% at a bare minimum.
A nexus doesn't stand a chance against a drop, yet as the person I quoted stated, Terran get planetary defence fortress's to completely screw anything dropped in, oh and if it was cloaked like a DT? just do a scan - bam.
I'm probably biased as a P player but when was the last VOD or top replay you saw where the T got their command centre dropped in 5 seconds? Zerg, sure - they lose hatches against nasty drops all the time, P - definitely but T? rare.
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On August 31 2010 22:06 sadyque wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 21:53 dump wrote:honestly, i would almost have welcomed a tank buff if it meant that terran players would do something other than mass marauders for a change. pvt is getting so damn boring. this game sort of sums up my beef with the game right now: http://www.youtube.com/user/HDstarcraft#p/u/1/o-mt8Es5JoMi mean, seriously, 8000 minerals stocked, 3 neglected geysers, nothing but mmm, and the game lasts 40+ minutes. marauders are stultifying. The terran player in that replay was just training for patch 1.1. Why build tanks if they are gonna get nerfed? They werent great vs toss before...now they gonna suck even more. Battlec gonna get nerfed too...So i guess he just practiced with the only units left viable vs P. Oh and btw in case you didnt watch till the end...the T lost the game....
Yet if you watch the replay, the amount of 'work' the P had to do, in order to win was insane. The unit composition and constant, constant fighting off of cheap nasty drops in his base is ridiculous.
The P player was going flat out with all kinds of high end tech yet the T just sat back and massed primarily 3 low teir units.
It's ridiculous - I don't care about the imbalance as much I do boredom here, fix terrans later tier units so that they are viable if need be - but for goodness sakes, T1 / T1.5 should not be that strong.
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On September 01 2010 13:51 Nightfall.589 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 10:42 Subversion wrote:
im really surprised blizz didnt do something to rauders.
they usually hate people massing 1 unit, or claim to.
but pure marauder is honestly becoming more common every day, they're just so damned strong. There are a million and one counters to pure marauders. Void rays, stalker/zealots, speedlings, hydra...
Stalker / Zealots? I can't tell if you're joking - are you?
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On September 01 2010 19:37 abrasion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 13:51 Nightfall.589 wrote:On September 01 2010 10:42 Subversion wrote:
im really surprised blizz didnt do something to rauders.
they usually hate people massing 1 unit, or claim to.
but pure marauder is honestly becoming more common every day, they're just so damned strong. There are a million and one counters to pure marauders. Void rays, stalker/zealots, speedlings, hydra... Stalker / Zealots? I can't tell if you're joking - are you?
Marauders also beat Hydra cost-to-cost, even without stim. So the only real counter is marines and lings, and obviously anything in the air. So I guess that balances out the fact that they're incredibly cheap, sturdy, low tech, well-rounded, healable, negate scouts, and they can drop buildings and armored units in the blink of an eye.
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On September 01 2010 13:47 dump wrote:
unless i'm missing something, time = money, no?
Most certainly a non-argument.
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EPT
