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Planetary fortress and terran bio are the two things that should have recieved nerfs in this patch. I don't understand how people thing either are remotely balanced. The tank nerf was a little undeserved considering they could be countered through better engagements/abusing mobility/immortals. Bio on the other hand, is insanely high dps, amazing healing and has some of the best mobility in the game. Toss needs so much gas to get on an even footing and yet can't take a reliable early expo because terran rapes gateway units so hard we can barely hold our own ramp. A couple of nerfs might actually force them to use ghosts effectively, atm they are excess to requirements for PvT and emp is not even researchable, wtf.
Why can't toss morph a nexus into a planetary citadel? Terran has more mobility with medivacs and the easiest means of taking and defending expo's (float + pf) even without a large standing army. Taking map control doesn't do shit if the terran third and fourth are virtually unkillable by ground whereas ours are incredibly vulnerable cause some genius thought it would be balanced to have mass produced flying medics that double as dropships for tier 1 units that are more cost effective and better than anything we get till tier 3.
950 diamond toss rant.
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On August 31 2010 21:04 Butigroove wrote:
The tank damage changes hardly anything versus zerg. Zerglings, banelings and Hydras still die in the same ammount of shots in 100% and 50% range, and only 1 more shot in the 25% range.
Takes one more shot to kill infestors.
and OH GNOES tanks kill queens slower lol...
Hardly a nerf at all vs zerg. :S
These are the correct numbers for zerglings:
pre 1.1:
splash dmg shots needed to kill lings
100% 50 1
50% 25 2
25% 12.5 3
post 1.1:
splash dmg shots needed to kill lings
100% 35 1
50% 17.5 3
25% 8.75 5
They guy from who you got your numbers already said, that he made a mistake. (He forgot zerg regeneration, which start immediatly after dmg taken, even with only fully hp displayed).
Sadly i found those wrong numbers already in 3 different forums, with zergs whining how nothing has changed. I mean, its simple math+game knowledge, how can there be so many ppl believing in wrong numbers?
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honestly, i would almost have welcomed a tank buff if it meant that terran players would do something other than mass marauders for a change. pvt is getting so damn boring.
this game sort of sums up my beef with the game right now:
http://www.youtube.com/user/HDstarcraft#p/u/1/o-mt8Es5JoM
i mean, seriously, 8000 minerals stocked, 3 neglected geysers, nothing but mmm, and the game lasts 40+ minutes.
marauders are stultifying.
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On August 31 2010 21:53 dump wrote:honestly, i would almost have welcomed a tank buff if it meant that terran players would do something other than mass marauders for a change. pvt is getting so damn boring. this game sort of sums up my beef with the game right now: http://www.youtube.com/user/HDstarcraft#p/u/1/o-mt8Es5JoMi mean, seriously, 8000 minerals stocked, 3 neglected geysers, nothing but mmm, and the game lasts 40+ minutes. marauders are stultifying.
The terran player in that replay was just training for patch 1.1. Why build tanks if they are gonna get nerfed? They werent great vs toss before...now they gonna suck even more. Battlec gonna get nerfed too...So i guess he just practiced with the only units left viable vs P. Oh and btw in case you didnt watch till the end...the T lost the game....
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On August 31 2010 21:53 dump wrote:honestly, i would almost have welcomed a tank buff if it meant that terran players would do something other than mass marauders for a change. pvt is getting so damn boring. this game sort of sums up my beef with the game right now: http://www.youtube.com/user/HDstarcraft#p/u/1/o-mt8Es5JoMi mean, seriously, 8000 minerals stocked, 3 neglected geysers, nothing but mmm, and the game lasts 40+ minutes. marauders are stultifying.
I would bet money that patch 1.2 will hit Marauders hard. There is no doubt that unit is a little over the top for it's accessibility and cost. Terran bio is just way too versatile and powerful at the same time. I just see 1.1 as Blizzard taking small baby steps to move slowly toward balance. We shouldn't expect perfect balance by the first patch and neither should Blizzard. It should simply be a long term goal to slowly work toward.
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On August 31 2010 22:08 SixSigma wrote:
I would bet money that patch 1.2 will hit Marauders hard. There is no doubt that unit is a little over the top for it's accessibility and cost. Terran bio is just way too versatile and powerful at the same time. I just see 1.1 as Blizzard taking small baby steps to move slowly toward balance. We shouldn't expect perfect balance by the first patch and neither should Blizzard. It should simply be a long term goal to slowly work toward.
Ignoring a problem with a unit isn't progression though. The Marauder has been insane for the entire beta phase, and as far as we are into the release it's still insane.
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On August 31 2010 22:06 sadyque wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 21:53 dump wrote:honestly, i would almost have welcomed a tank buff if it meant that terran players would do something other than mass marauders for a change. pvt is getting so damn boring. this game sort of sums up my beef with the game right now: http://www.youtube.com/user/HDstarcraft#p/u/1/o-mt8Es5JoMi mean, seriously, 8000 minerals stocked, 3 neglected geysers, nothing but mmm, and the game lasts 40+ minutes. marauders are stultifying. The terran player in that replay was just training for patch 1.1. Why build tanks if they are gonna get nerfed? They werent great vs toss before...now they gonna suck even more. Battlec gonna get nerfed too...So i guess he just practiced with the only units left viable vs P. Oh and btw in case you didnt watch till the end...the T lost the game....
yeah i know, i just didn't want to spoil it.
either way the fact that you can survive on mmm alone for 40 minutes is just sad.
i can't say whether or not there are no other viable strategies against toss, but if there aren't, well, that's still the same problem for a different reason, right?
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 31 2010 22:08 SixSigma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 21:53 dump wrote:honestly, i would almost have welcomed a tank buff if it meant that terran players would do something other than mass marauders for a change. pvt is getting so damn boring. this game sort of sums up my beef with the game right now: http://www.youtube.com/user/HDstarcraft#p/u/1/o-mt8Es5JoMi mean, seriously, 8000 minerals stocked, 3 neglected geysers, nothing but mmm, and the game lasts 40+ minutes. marauders are stultifying.
I would bet money that patch 1.2 will hit Marauders hard. There is no doubt that unit is a little over the top for it's accessibility and cost. Terran bio is just way too versatile and powerful at the same time. I just see 1.1 as Blizzard taking small baby steps to move slowly toward balance. We shouldn't expect perfect balance by the first patch and neither should Blizzard. It should simply be a long term goal to slowly work toward.
I hope they do nerf marauders next patch. First tanks and battlecruisers then marauders.
1.3 will definately nerf marines cuz you know for tier 1 they can shoot ground AND air all for 50 minerals AAAND they can be build from reactored rax.. Also 1.3 will bring the long awaited bancheese nerf by lowering their dmg to 2x5 so they can be on par with stalkers.
1.4 Is the patch that will finnaly nerf hellions imba splash. Everyone knows zerg cant hard counter hellions with roaches and are forced to fast tech to mutas so they can finnaly powerdrone. This hellions change ofc will mean nothing w/o the mule nerf wich brings too many mins/sec so reactored hellions/marines can be spamed way to fast. So the mule will now be available every 30 seconds and will cost 75 energy (just like queen's spawn larva)
Im a terran player and i REALLY do hope those changes above get implemented in the next patches.
Lets see after patch 1.4 WTF are you gonna whine about when you still get pwned by terrans.
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On August 31 2010 22:21 sadyque wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 31 2010 22:08 SixSigma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 21:53 dump wrote:honestly, i would almost have welcomed a tank buff if it meant that terran players would do something other than mass marauders for a change. pvt is getting so damn boring. this game sort of sums up my beef with the game right now: http://www.youtube.com/user/HDstarcraft#p/u/1/o-mt8Es5JoMi mean, seriously, 8000 minerals stocked, 3 neglected geysers, nothing but mmm, and the game lasts 40+ minutes. marauders are stultifying. I would bet money that patch 1.2 will hit Marauders hard. There is no doubt that unit is a little over the top for it's accessibility and cost. Terran bio is just way too versatile and powerful at the same time. I just see 1.1 as Blizzard taking small baby steps to move slowly toward balance. We shouldn't expect perfect balance by the first patch and neither should Blizzard. It should simply be a long term goal to slowly work toward. I hope they do nerf marauders next patch. First tanks and battlecruisers then marauders. 1.3 will definately nerf marines cuz you know for tier 1 they can shoot ground AND air all for 50 minerals AAAND they can be build from reactored rax.. Also 1.3 will bring the long awaited bancheese nerf by lowering their dmg to 2x5 so they can be on par with stalkers. 1.4 Is the patch that will finnaly nerf hellions imba splash. Everyone knows zerg cant hard counter hellions with roaches and are forced to fast tech to mutas so they can finnaly powerdrone. This hellions change ofc will mean nothing w/o the mule nerf wich brings too many mins/sec so reactored hellions/marines can be spamed way to fast. So the mule will now be available every 30 seconds and will cost 75 energy (just like queen's spawn larva) Im a terran player and i REALLY do hope those changes above get implemented in the next patches. Lets see after patch 1.4 WTF are you gonna whine about when you still get pwned by terrans.
Nothing... If the Terran beats me it will be because he is better and not just relying on a crutch. Right now that is not the case.
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as for the tank nerf, i would have been more interested in seeing hp reduced rather than damage. reducing damage is the easy way out.
in brood war, there was an interesting tank vs. tank metagame where if you micro'd your tank correctly and had it just outside their vision range but within their attack range, you could kill the enemy tank with like 5 hp after 3 shots.
reducing hp would also make battles more decisive and entertaining to watch, since then it becomes a matter of micro to focus down the tanks or conversely to protect the tanks more carefully.
furthermore, tank friendly fire is often exploited by skilled opponents, so making induced friendly fire less effective just makes the vs. tank game that much less interesting.
that's the kind of precision balance that sc2 lacks, i think.
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On August 31 2010 22:30 sadyque wrote:You sure? Cuz i think most terrans after those patches would scv rush every game with 1-2 rines. See...you forgot scvs... I bet you gonna want those nerfed too... Edit: It seems someone is already worried about the power of the scv comming patch 1.4!! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=148778
Must be rough down there at Silver for ya, huh?
User was warned for this post
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On August 31 2010 23:22 Grimjim wrote:Must be rough down there at Silver for ya, huh?
Ye silver....Sadyque.946.. Now show me yours...
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Mauraders are just insanely strong. Their +armored should be 5, not 10
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Time to throw my hat in!
4v4 286 Bronzer here
I've waded through a LOT of these posts. It seems there's more comments about how bio needs nerfs still rather than the changes actually being made to terran. There's def a lot of hate on terran, as there should be. Zerg and Protoss are underpowered against Terran early game. If people hated marauders now, they are going to kill themselves to play terran next patch because they're going to see MORE marauders. What's the incentive to even come close to a critical mass/saturating tanks. The gas would better be spent on ghosts or ravens, to increase survivability/effectiveness. The money spent on tanks could be spent on more marauders or armor/weapon upgrades for them. I hate to compare them, but just for a second lets look at some things in BW and SC2 that have changed.
For one, imagine the protoss had the corsair instead of the phoenix, or at least disruption web? Disruption web is ultimately now with the Raven in a slightly different form but similar effect. What if the Overlord was still a detector? What if hydras weren't T2 and Roaches were?
Blizzard has changed protoss and zerg significantly in SC2, while terran has by and large remained rather similar. Instead of the crappy wraith, we have the awesome banshee, instead of the weird and buggy valkyrie, we have the long range and very cheap dual purpose Viking.
Terran are only overpowered because they have so many openings, something blizzard has completely ignored for protoss and zerg. Fast Lurkers? DT rush? I'm sure some protoss and zerg players wouldn't mind having some things in their arsenal. But what do you expect in a game that features Terran as the premiere race. When hots comes out i'm sure Zerg will receive some absurd unit that everyone will cry about.
The sad thing is that they have to nerf terran because they probably won't bother switching anything with protoss and zerg (significantly) until the expansion. If anything should be done, marauder range should maybe be decreased and concussive shell should be removed or stim should from marauders. Preferably I'd give up concussive shells over stim.
I swear these boards reminds me of the WoW class boards, I don't know whether it's due to the high influx of wow converts or what. I feel as though since the norm of that game was to complain about other races, it's become a highly amplified norm here. But I digress.
People also forget that terrran, as the game progresses, need to build a ton of more production buildings and spend more money upgrading an array of units. We can't warp in 12 units in 5 seconds as soon as a fight is over to defend our mains/expansion. Nor can we spawn 30 units from our THREE+ production buildings.
Protoss and Zerg are still new designs compared to BW and people are honestly still feeling them out. Terran has the same versatility it always had, but now it just has a marauder, to make it worse for the other races.
And as for the cry for banshee nerfs, I don't know what to tell you, terrans have always had walls to protect their entrances to prevent against scouting, and general protection vs a rush. It's just that the wraith sucked so much there was no point in rushing it, if overlord was still a detector, you wouldn't be making the noise you are. If you nerf banshee damage that will be both the seige tank and the banshee that have become less than impressive units, it's also 3 supply.... That's all a thread for another time. In fact I think there already was a long one over in the strategy forums.
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On August 31 2010 21:17 st3roids wrote:huk vs cauthoneven som1 who plays sc2 for a day can understand whats wrong with this replay. t1 terran units vs t2-t3 toss units and terran won relativlely easy. the comparison would been zerglings + roaches only vs collossi archons , stalkers + storm and zerg winning or stalkers zealots vs thors , tanks marauders and winning. Guess what only terran units can do this and they still will after patch .
Medivacs are t2.5....Ghosts are t2
wtf are you smoking? HURRR IMA IGNORE HALF HIS ARMY COMPOSITION.
Mauraders are just insanely strong. Their +armored should be 5, not 10
Lol! If Marauders were to be nerfed, you'd want to make them more of a specialist unit, not more a generalist. This change would be awful lol, it would either do nothing or make marauders/bio not used at all.
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On September 01 2010 02:13 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 21:17 st3roids wrote:huk vs cauthoneven som1 who plays sc2 for a day can understand whats wrong with this replay. t1 terran units vs t2-t3 toss units and terran won relativlely easy. the comparison would been zerglings + roaches only vs collossi archons , stalkers + storm and zerg winning or stalkers zealots vs thors , tanks marauders and winning. Guess what only terran units can do this and they still will after patch . Medivacs are t2.5....Ghosts are t2 wtf are you smoking? HURRR IMA IGNORE HALF HIS ARMY COMPOSITION. Lol! If Marauders were to be nerfed, you'd want to make them more of a specialist unit, not more a generalist. This change would be awful lol, it would either do nothing or make marauders/bio not used at all.
medivacs cant atk and ghosts for emp against toss immortals is a nobrainer. the fact his he massed a bunch of tier 1 units as his main bulk army and took out a army that consisted mainly of tier 2 and tier 3 units of toss. and whats even more stupid is that he 1A moved most if not all of the time with a few drops here and there that any one can do.
marauders need a nerf. doesnt matter what it is but they need one. i still suggest removing stim from marauders. they still do insane dmg to armored units and buildings without stim. but once they do stim up they just destroy anything and everything with armor
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Medivacs are t2.5....Ghosts are t2
wtf are you smoking? HURRR IMA IGNORE HALF HIS ARMY COMPOSITION.
2,5 ? more like 1,5 , having 4-5 medvacs is half the army right .
Its ok i understand every 50 apm , 1a , found his dream race
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On September 01 2010 02:13 Half wrote:Lol! If Marauders were to be nerfed, you'd want to make them more of a specialist unit, not more a generalist. This change would be awful lol, it would either do nothing or make marauders/bio not used at all.
True. An interesting marauder nerf would be to change their dmg from 10+10 to 8+12. This way they would still own anything armored but it would force the terran to play more reactonary. Like adding hellions against a zealot heavy army or get overun. Also increasing hellion numbers would make the protoss get more stalkers, so the terran wants to get more marauders again...
This way it would be much more dynmaic, instead of "mass marauders and just enough marines to get rid of air and medivacs to heal" every time.
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EPT
