|
On September 01 2010 04:12 terranghost wrote:
Also I am not saying a disagree with a marauder nerf in some way shape or form. BUt in this replay the terran goes heavy marine marauder the toss goes heavy sentry/stalker/zealot.
This is t1 vt1
Toss techs to collosus which is T3 while terran techs to vikings also T3
After the viking the protoss switched to templar instead which is also T3 so the terrans pumped out T3 medivacs and T1.5 ghosts.
The T1 vs T1 remained the same throughout. There were basically the same number of T3 units on both sides for a large majority of that game.
(if you consider medivacs 2.5 fine go ahead my point still stands)
As far as a nerf for the marauder keep in mind that loss of stim pack would prevent marauders from stimming up to go kill a collosus but it would also prevent them in tvt from stimming up to kill tanks. Granted blizzard should not base the balance off of a mirror match. It is good that they are attempting to make them more fun to watch but if that comes at the price of making X vs Y not fun to watch then I would vote against it.
At the same time concussive shells is what allows marines to be useful in the ball so removal of that ability would probably not work. The best solution imo is a cooldown or even make it a castable ability (with or without energy).
a few problems with your tiers.
to get collossi you need: gate, core, robo, robobay + thermal lance upgrade
to get vikings you need: barracks, factory, starport. no upgrades
to switch from collosi to HT's you need: twilight council, templar archives + storm upgrade
to switch from vikings to ghosts you need: ghost acadmy. no upgrades
also, i don't consider medivacs or vikings tier 3 units. more tier 2.5 or even 2. the fact that they need no upgrades to be useful (as well as marauder upgrades being so cheap and being tier 1) is kind of overpowered, imo
i also find diamond lvl winrate to be a poor indicator of balance. the system attempts to force a 50% winrate among players so even if a race were to be overpowered or underpowered, differences in skill in matches would compensate for that.
|
On September 02 2010 00:46 kthnx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 04:12 terranghost wrote:
Also I am not saying a disagree with a marauder nerf in some way shape or form. BUt in this replay the terran goes heavy marine marauder the toss goes heavy sentry/stalker/zealot.
This is t1 vt1
Toss techs to collosus which is T3 while terran techs to vikings also T3
After the viking the protoss switched to templar instead which is also T3 so the terrans pumped out T3 medivacs and T1.5 ghosts.
The T1 vs T1 remained the same throughout. There were basically the same number of T3 units on both sides for a large majority of that game.
(if you consider medivacs 2.5 fine go ahead my point still stands)
As far as a nerf for the marauder keep in mind that loss of stim pack would prevent marauders from stimming up to go kill a collosus but it would also prevent them in tvt from stimming up to kill tanks. Granted blizzard should not base the balance off of a mirror match. It is good that they are attempting to make them more fun to watch but if that comes at the price of making X vs Y not fun to watch then I would vote against it.
At the same time concussive shells is what allows marines to be useful in the ball so removal of that ability would probably not work. The best solution imo is a cooldown or even make it a castable ability (with or without energy). a few problems with your tiers. to get collossi you need: gate, core, robo, robobay + thermal lance upgrade to get vikings you need: barracks, factory, starport. no upgrades to switch from collosi to HT's you need: twilight council, templar archives + storm upgrade to switch from vikings to ghosts you need: ghost acadmy. no upgrades also, i don't consider medivacs or vikings tier 3 units. more tier 2.5 or even 2. the fact that they need no upgrades to be useful (as well as marauder upgrades being so cheap and being tier 1) is kind of overpowered, imo i also find diamond lvl winrate to be a poor indicator of balance. the system attempts to force a 50% winrate among players so even if a race were to be overpowered or underpowered, differences in skill in matches would compensate for that.
Whether you consider terran air tier 3 or not does not change the fact that it is.
Terran tier 1 any thing that you can build quickly after constructing your first production building. Marauders, Marines, reapers
Tier 1.5 anything that you build out of your first production building but need an additional building to make them.
Ghosts
Tier 2 anything that you can build quickly off of your second production building.
Tanks, hellions
Tier 2.5 anything that you build out of your second production building but need an additional building to make them.
thors
tier 3 any thing that you can build quickly after constructing your third production building.
Vikings, medivacs, ravens, banshees
Tier 3.5 anything that you build out of your third production building but need an additional building to make them.
Battlecrusiers
You can expand on this list more and say that any unit that requires a tech lab is actually 1.25/2.25/3.25 respectably
Yes you can argue that the terrans can skip their 1.5 and 2.5 units and go straight to tier 3 units and then decide to go back to them later.
zerg
Tier 1 any unit whose tech building is immediately available upon hatchery level.
Zerglings, queens, overlord
Tier 1.5 requires an additional structure but does not require a lair
Banelings, Roaches
Tier 2 any unit whose tech building is immediately available upon lair level.
Mutalisks, Infestors, Hydras, overseer, corruptor
Tier 3 Tier 3 any unit whose tech building is immediately available upon hive level.
Ultralisk
Tier 3.5 requires an additional structure after getting the hive.
Broodlord
Do the zerg have to build roaches and banelings or can they save their gas get a lair and already be on tier 2? Yes they must throw in an additional building before their hatchery/lair can upgrade. But they can tech up too. IMO if you are going for ultras you will be getting infestors anyway so you will need that building anyway.
Protoss tech is wierd as the construction of a cybercore unlocks both of your advanced production buildings.
Tier 1 Things immediately available from the gateway/warpgate.
Zealots
Tier 1.5 Requires a cybercore and a gateway/warpgate
Sentry, stalker
Tier 2 (for this I will assume that this is the first advanced structure that many toss get as they need observers thus this is where I will start tier 2 however, the tier 2 and 3 I have here can switch places if you decide not to go for the robo facility)
Any unit that can be built upon the completion of the first beginning advanced structure.
Immortal, observer
Tier 2.5 any unit that is available after the construction of another building
Collosus.
Tier 3 anything made available to you upon the completion of one of the other 2 beginning advanced structures (twilight council stargate)
Voidray, phoenix
Tier 3.5
Anything that requires an additional sturcture on top of your tier 3 building.
Templar, dark templar, carriers, mothership
Can the protoss scout without building a robo facility thus allowing them to switch my tier 3 and tier 2? Yes they can research hallucination to scout if they went straight for the templar archives/darkshrine. They can scout with hallucination or simple phoenix if they went the stargate route. Unless your opponent had a raven or overseer in his base he has no idea if the phoenix is real or not. If the toss spreads his stuff out chances it will be missed by an overlord scout or scan thus making the opponent prepare for more than he needed to or simply decide not to move out as soon.
As protoss you have no set tier 2 or 3 you can pick and choose what tech path you take. People I think just assume that since you need to scout the robotics facility must be made next. No the observer is only needed if you have to handle cloaked units.
By the way a typo in my original post I said the collosus was tier 3 I have corrected that accordingly.
If you look back into posts I have made on other threads I have agreed with people that believe the viking should have an upgrade to get its ridiculous range. "I'm getting my starport with a reactor so I can get medivacs for my infantry ball no need to scout..... O shit collosus I might actually need to get some vikings now but they drop like flies because they don't have their range upgrade"
But also by the same logic The tank would be something above tier 2 as to really make them useful you need the siege mode upgrade.
|
Why argue on the definition of 'tier'? It's a meaningless concept, just an arbitrary label. If Terran tier 3 is faster than Zerg tier 2, then the two cannot be compared.
|
On September 02 2010 04:03 fdsdfg wrote:
Why argue on the definition of 'tier'? It's a meaningless concept, just an arbitrary label. If Terran tier 3 is faster than Zerg tier 2, then the two cannot be compared.
The point is someone was using it as an argument. I am using it to negate an argument. As far as faster or slower. That's all a matter of the tech paths each player chooses to use. If a terran opens 1/1/1 and zerg for whatever reason decides to open with hatchery/lair/hive. Yes the terran player will get to the endpoint faster. If the terran goes pure mech he has little reason to get that starport wasted gas. He will be sticking to hellions tanks and thors meaning the zerg mainly tier 1 and tier units to fight that and with said composition anyway he will already have the tech to gain the hive for unit that would be great for fighting the terrans composition anyway. This being said the zerg got to tier 3 first.
If zerg are in much need of their broodlord or a faster cheaper hive tech I wouldn't mind if a change was made so they could build any of their advanced buildings to unlock to hive. This would smooth things out a bit more for them. Possibly increasing the hive's buildtime if this was done. But if the hive build time remained the same I wouldn't care.
|
While comparing all those "tiers" you should consider, that starcraft is about 3 different races...
I mean, sure it takes way longer to get broodlords than banshees. But Broodlords /= Banshees.
|
Correct me if I'm wrong, but all Terran has to do in the new patch is to get +1 vehicle upgrades, which they almost always do, and they will start 2 shotting Zerglings / Hydralisks like they always have? So we are just left with a balance patch that is basically +5 to Reapers and +5 to Bunkers and....it's all balanced? PUHHHHHLEEAAZZZEE.
|
I think Blizzard are looking at this whole thing wrong, while reapers and Tanks are slightly overpowered I don't think this nerf is going to help things a great deal. The problem with Terran lies with scouting, and the ability to deny scouting. A top terran player can scout easily with Comsat, a reaper, a hellion, a floating building etc and simultaneously deny their opponents with a wall in and some marines.
In essense this means that Zerg and Protoss are blindly countering what the terran is doing and they either have to prepare for everything, setting them back considerably against a specific build, or guess what their opponent is doing. Yes, there are observers and overseers but by the time these come it's often too late and in the case of observers forces you into a particular tech path.
Nerfing tanks and reapers just reduces the potency of a couple of strategies but Terran still have 8 or 9 other allins or other strategies they can pick from. I feel if blizzard keep going down the route of nerfing strategies one by one instead of looking at the big picture, then TvX will just become a guessing game - if I guess what the Terran is doing I win, otherwise I lose.
Rather than nerfing Terran units, how about giving Protoss and Zerg the ability to scout the Terran during the first 6 minutes of the game.
|
I partly agree with you Wargizmo. But nerfing tanks makes TvP more difficult. Yes the reapers need a little nerfing. But the tank will be useless if its main purpose (killing weak units) is taken away. I think Terran should lean toward mech against toss and bio against zerg, but mech is becoming weak in both matchups.
|
On September 02 2010 04:00 terranghost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 00:46 kthnx wrote:On September 01 2010 04:12 terranghost wrote:
Also I am not saying a disagree with a marauder nerf in some way shape or form. BUt in this replay the terran goes heavy marine marauder the toss goes heavy sentry/stalker/zealot.
This is t1 vt1
Toss techs to collosus which is T3 while terran techs to vikings also T3
After the viking the protoss switched to templar instead which is also T3 so the terrans pumped out T3 medivacs and T1.5 ghosts.
The T1 vs T1 remained the same throughout. There were basically the same number of T3 units on both sides for a large majority of that game.
(if you consider medivacs 2.5 fine go ahead my point still stands)
As far as a nerf for the marauder keep in mind that loss of stim pack would prevent marauders from stimming up to go kill a collosus but it would also prevent them in tvt from stimming up to kill tanks. Granted blizzard should not base the balance off of a mirror match. It is good that they are attempting to make them more fun to watch but if that comes at the price of making X vs Y not fun to watch then I would vote against it.
At the same time concussive shells is what allows marines to be useful in the ball so removal of that ability would probably not work. The best solution imo is a cooldown or even make it a castable ability (with or without energy). a few problems with your tiers. to get collossi you need: gate, core, robo, robobay + thermal lance upgrade to get vikings you need: barracks, factory, starport. no upgrades to switch from collosi to HT's you need: twilight council, templar archives + storm upgrade to switch from vikings to ghosts you need: ghost acadmy. no upgrades also, i don't consider medivacs or vikings tier 3 units. more tier 2.5 or even 2. the fact that they need no upgrades to be useful (as well as marauder upgrades being so cheap and being tier 1) is kind of overpowered, imo i also find diamond lvl winrate to be a poor indicator of balance. the system attempts to force a 50% winrate among players so even if a race were to be overpowered or underpowered, differences in skill in matches would compensate for that. Whether you consider terran air tier 3 or not does not change the fact that it is. Terran tier 1 any thing that you can build quickly after constructing your first production building. Marauders, Marines, reapers Tier 1.5 anything that you build out of your first production building but need an additional building to make them. Ghosts Tier 2 anything that you can build quickly off of your second production building. Tanks, hellions Tier 2.5 anything that you build out of your second production building but need an additional building to make them. thors tier 3 any thing that you can build quickly after constructing your third production building. Vikings, medivacs, ravens, banshees Tier 3.5 anything that you build out of your third production building but need an additional building to make them. Battlecrusiers You can expand on this list more and say that any unit that requires a tech lab is actually 1.25/2.25/3.25 respectably Yes you can argue that the terrans can skip their 1.5 and 2.5 units and go straight to tier 3 units and then decide to go back to them later. zerg Tier 1 any unit whose tech building is immediately available upon hatchery level. Zerglings, queens, overlord Tier 1.5 requires an additional structure but does not require a lair Banelings, Roaches Tier 2 any unit whose tech building is immediately available upon lair level. Mutalisks, Infestors, Hydras, overseer, corruptor Tier 3 Tier 3 any unit whose tech building is immediately available upon hive level. Ultralisk Tier 3.5 requires an additional structure after getting the hive. Broodlord Do the zerg have to build roaches and banelings or can they save their gas get a lair and already be on tier 2? Yes they must throw in an additional building before their hatchery/lair can upgrade. But they can tech up too. IMO if you are going for ultras you will be getting infestors anyway so you will need that building anyway. Protoss tech is wierd as the construction of a cybercore unlocks both of your advanced production buildings. Tier 1 Things immediately available from the gateway/warpgate. Zealots Tier 1.5 Requires a cybercore and a gateway/warpgate Sentry, stalker Tier 2 (for this I will assume that this is the first advanced structure that many toss get as they need observers thus this is where I will start tier 2 however, the tier 2 and 3 I have here can switch places if you decide not to go for the robo facility) Any unit that can be built upon the completion of the first beginning advanced structure. Immortal, observer Tier 2.5 any unit that is available after the construction of another building Collosus. Tier 3 anything made available to you upon the completion of one of the other 2 beginning advanced structures (twilight council stargate) Voidray, phoenix Tier 3.5 Anything that requires an additional sturcture on top of your tier 3 building. Templar, dark templar, carriers, mothership Can the protoss scout without building a robo facility thus allowing them to switch my tier 3 and tier 2? Yes they can research hallucination to scout if they went straight for the templar archives/darkshrine. They can scout with hallucination or simple phoenix if they went the stargate route. Unless your opponent had a raven or overseer in his base he has no idea if the phoenix is real or not. If the toss spreads his stuff out chances it will be missed by an overlord scout or scan thus making the opponent prepare for more than he needed to or simply decide not to move out as soon. As protoss you have no set tier 2 or 3 you can pick and choose what tech path you take. People I think just assume that since you need to scout the robotics facility must be made next. No the observer is only needed if you have to handle cloaked units. By the way a typo in my original post I said the collosus was tier 3 I have corrected that accordingly. If you look back into posts I have made on other threads I have agreed with people that believe the viking should have an upgrade to get its ridiculous range. "I'm getting my starport with a reactor so I can get medivacs for my infantry ball no need to scout..... O shit collosus I might actually need to get some vikings now but they drop like flies because they don't have their range upgrade" But also by the same logic The tank would be something above tier 2 as to really make them useful you need the siege mode upgrade.
I see what you're saying there but the fact remains: Even if Vikings are tier 3 units they are easy as hell to get. Easier than any other race so you'r point only highlights the Terran imbalances even more! Tier 1 units can be used the entire game and god forbid you have to tech to tier three because your opponent is getting ahead it takes you all of 1 minute to build the structure and counter-act anything being done against you. Not to mention you can take another few seconds to add a reactor, in terms of vikings, and viola you'r air defense is up + the 10 turrets in you'r base... Now what does the other race do but either go threw with a failed attack or tech switch again until you do the same and beat him to it. That means you can be the best harassing race, reactionary race (which should be Zergs role) and mobile race.
Say what you will but even you must admit there is something wrong with this system. Yes I play Zerg and no I hardly ever QQ but I do butt in every once and a while to to state some facts.
|
On September 02 2010 10:21 ckw wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 04:00 terranghost wrote:On September 02 2010 00:46 kthnx wrote:On September 01 2010 04:12 terranghost wrote:
Also I am not saying a disagree with a marauder nerf in some way shape or form. BUt in this replay the terran goes heavy marine marauder the toss goes heavy sentry/stalker/zealot.
This is t1 vt1
Toss techs to collosus which is T3 while terran techs to vikings also T3
After the viking the protoss switched to templar instead which is also T3 so the terrans pumped out T3 medivacs and T1.5 ghosts.
The T1 vs T1 remained the same throughout. There were basically the same number of T3 units on both sides for a large majority of that game.
(if you consider medivacs 2.5 fine go ahead my point still stands)
As far as a nerf for the marauder keep in mind that loss of stim pack would prevent marauders from stimming up to go kill a collosus but it would also prevent them in tvt from stimming up to kill tanks. Granted blizzard should not base the balance off of a mirror match. It is good that they are attempting to make them more fun to watch but if that comes at the price of making X vs Y not fun to watch then I would vote against it.
At the same time concussive shells is what allows marines to be useful in the ball so removal of that ability would probably not work. The best solution imo is a cooldown or even make it a castable ability (with or without energy). a few problems with your tiers. to get collossi you need: gate, core, robo, robobay + thermal lance upgrade to get vikings you need: barracks, factory, starport. no upgrades to switch from collosi to HT's you need: twilight council, templar archives + storm upgrade to switch from vikings to ghosts you need: ghost acadmy. no upgrades also, i don't consider medivacs or vikings tier 3 units. more tier 2.5 or even 2. the fact that they need no upgrades to be useful (as well as marauder upgrades being so cheap and being tier 1) is kind of overpowered, imo i also find diamond lvl winrate to be a poor indicator of balance. the system attempts to force a 50% winrate among players so even if a race were to be overpowered or underpowered, differences in skill in matches would compensate for that. Whether you consider terran air tier 3 or not does not change the fact that it is. Terran tier 1 any thing that you can build quickly after constructing your first production building. Marauders, Marines, reapers Tier 1.5 anything that you build out of your first production building but need an additional building to make them. Ghosts Tier 2 anything that you can build quickly off of your second production building. Tanks, hellions Tier 2.5 anything that you build out of your second production building but need an additional building to make them. thors tier 3 any thing that you can build quickly after constructing your third production building. Vikings, medivacs, ravens, banshees Tier 3.5 anything that you build out of your third production building but need an additional building to make them. Battlecrusiers You can expand on this list more and say that any unit that requires a tech lab is actually 1.25/2.25/3.25 respectably Yes you can argue that the terrans can skip their 1.5 and 2.5 units and go straight to tier 3 units and then decide to go back to them later. zerg Tier 1 any unit whose tech building is immediately available upon hatchery level. Zerglings, queens, overlord Tier 1.5 requires an additional structure but does not require a lair Banelings, Roaches Tier 2 any unit whose tech building is immediately available upon lair level. Mutalisks, Infestors, Hydras, overseer, corruptor Tier 3 Tier 3 any unit whose tech building is immediately available upon hive level. Ultralisk Tier 3.5 requires an additional structure after getting the hive. Broodlord Do the zerg have to build roaches and banelings or can they save their gas get a lair and already be on tier 2? Yes they must throw in an additional building before their hatchery/lair can upgrade. But they can tech up too. IMO if you are going for ultras you will be getting infestors anyway so you will need that building anyway. Protoss tech is wierd as the construction of a cybercore unlocks both of your advanced production buildings. Tier 1 Things immediately available from the gateway/warpgate. Zealots Tier 1.5 Requires a cybercore and a gateway/warpgate Sentry, stalker Tier 2 (for this I will assume that this is the first advanced structure that many toss get as they need observers thus this is where I will start tier 2 however, the tier 2 and 3 I have here can switch places if you decide not to go for the robo facility) Any unit that can be built upon the completion of the first beginning advanced structure. Immortal, observer Tier 2.5 any unit that is available after the construction of another building Collosus. Tier 3 anything made available to you upon the completion of one of the other 2 beginning advanced structures (twilight council stargate) Voidray, phoenix Tier 3.5 Anything that requires an additional sturcture on top of your tier 3 building. Templar, dark templar, carriers, mothership Can the protoss scout without building a robo facility thus allowing them to switch my tier 3 and tier 2? Yes they can research hallucination to scout if they went straight for the templar archives/darkshrine. They can scout with hallucination or simple phoenix if they went the stargate route. Unless your opponent had a raven or overseer in his base he has no idea if the phoenix is real or not. If the toss spreads his stuff out chances it will be missed by an overlord scout or scan thus making the opponent prepare for more than he needed to or simply decide not to move out as soon. As protoss you have no set tier 2 or 3 you can pick and choose what tech path you take. People I think just assume that since you need to scout the robotics facility must be made next. No the observer is only needed if you have to handle cloaked units. By the way a typo in my original post I said the collosus was tier 3 I have corrected that accordingly. If you look back into posts I have made on other threads I have agreed with people that believe the viking should have an upgrade to get its ridiculous range. "I'm getting my starport with a reactor so I can get medivacs for my infantry ball no need to scout..... O shit collosus I might actually need to get some vikings now but they drop like flies because they don't have their range upgrade" But also by the same logic The tank would be something above tier 2 as to really make them useful you need the siege mode upgrade. I see what you're saying there but the fact remains: Even if Vikings are tier 3 units they are easy as hell to get. Easier than any other race so you'r point only highlights the Terran imbalances even more! Tier 1 units can be used the entire game and god forbid you have to tech to tier three because your opponent is getting ahead it takes you all of 1 minute to build the structure and counter-act anything being done against you. Not to mention you can take another few seconds to add a reactor, in terms of vikings, and viola you'r air defense is up + the 10 turrets in you'r base... Now what does the other race do but either go threw with a failed attack or tech switch again until you do the same and beat him to it. That means you can be the best harassing race, reactionary race (which should be Zergs role) and mobile race. Say what you will but even you must admit there is something wrong with this system. Yes I play Zerg and no I hardly ever QQ but I do butt in every once and a while to to state some facts.
Saying you are zerg player really helps my argument as the reason I posted this to begin with is a toss player was arguing something. The zerg tiers are thrown in for comparison sake.
Terran can tech the fastest.
Zerg can completely change their composition the fastest (permitted they have the tech for it)
And toss once they have a cyber can pick any advanced unit they want to rush for and obtain it reasoably fast.
Also saying that terran can stay on T1 for a long time is great and all but in the same said game that this was quoted from the toss player is also staying on T1 units (stalkers and zealots) yet no one here has made a post saying that that is wrong in anyway and they shouldn't. Both sides teched and had higher tier units in their army mixture and thats that. That is the point I am trying to make.
Is it possibly 2 easy for terran to mass a T3 army? Probably. Against zerg you need to be really agressive with your infantry balls (ie abusing medivacs to the max) if you want to hope to stand up to the zerg. Either that or have a very nice support unit (and be able to use it well) such as the ghost, tank, or thor. If you are not in one of these two situations then your only choice is going mech.
Is something imba? mabye. But as we have already seen with the magic box for mutas strategies are being developed to deal with the terran. I don't think it matters what the public thinks it would be pretty stupid of blizzard to make a humongous change only to have a micro trick discovered a week later that would have absolutely dominating the previous strategy and with the new nerf it works even better. I think the slow pace that blizzard is balancing the game is just fine. Whenever they implement this and then immediately the next day they implement another patch they have no idea what is causing the change they need to gather data on what one set of changes does before implementing a seperate set of changes.
Back to the OP I have no problems with any change listed. We saw this same problem with SC1 when it came out if you disagree with me look up the brood war patch log online if you are not familiar with it. The game will be perfected by the time HOS comes out or shortly after then everyone will put aside all of this petty bickering.
|
On September 02 2010 08:40 TheHuHu wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but all Terran has to do in the new patch is to get +1 vehicle upgrades, which they almost always do, and they will start 2 shotting Zerglings / Hydralisks like they always have? So we are just left with a balance patch that is basically +5 to Reapers and +5 to Bunkers and....it's all balanced? PUHHHHHLEEAAZZZEE.
Ignoring the fact that researching +1 attack takes money, and there will be a specific timing window because of this, Blizzard never said that after this patch "it's all balanced". They're aiming for "better" not "perfect".
On September 02 2010 10:09 Wargizmo wrote:
I think Blizzard are looking at this whole thing wrong, while reapers and Tanks are slightly overpowered I don't think this nerf is going to help things a great deal. The problem with Terran lies with scouting, and the ability to deny scouting. A top terran player can scout easily with Comsat, a reaper, a hellion, a floating building etc and simultaneously deny their opponents with a wall in and some marines.
That's not really the problem. It's part of the problem, but not the whole.
What you're describing was the case in SC1 as well. The difference is that, because of how the metagame developed, how "standard play" stabilized, the Terrans were only left with one or two viable strategies. In TvP, the Terran is going 'Mech. Oh, there's room for style and such. But the Protoss is well aware of exactly what the viable units are for that matchup, and thus he knows what he needs to do to defend it. In short, the Protoss doesn't need to scout.
In TvZ in SC1, there are more options. But all of these options are ground-based options and will be solved with pretty much the same units: Zerglings, Mutalisks, and Hydralisks. One ground option might involve Lurkers to a substantial degree, and another might call for Ultralisks as support. The Zerg player does need to scout to prepare for these possibilities, but the scouting can happen later, after Overlord speed and/or Mutalisks are out.
In SC2, this is not the case. Certainly not for the Zerg. You cannot guess what the Terran is doing; you have to know, because the Zerg have many different responses to the many different Terran openings. The units you would use for a Banshee opening are not the units you would use to stop a Mech opening. And those units wouldn't stop Bio play. Zerg units are much more specialized in SC2; you need to have the right unit mixture early on in the game or you can get run over easily.
|
i wonder how the zealot nerf will affect cannon rushes
|
i have a pretty good idea considering the zealot nerf. what about just nerfing the GATEWAY time, but keeping the WARPGATE time the same as it is now. that way it would weaken the 2 gate, but later in the game it wont have an impact on your actualy army size.
and zealots are obviously never a problem past early game with rushes, so i think they dont deserve the warpgate nerf.
|
On September 02 2010 21:20 Lucius2 wrote:
i have a pretty good idea considering the zealot nerf. what about just nerfing the GATEWAY time, but keeping the WARPGATE time the same as it is now. that way it would weaken the 2 gate, but later in the game it wont have an impact on your actualy army size.
and zealots are obviously never a problem past early game with rushes, so i think they dont deserve the warpgate nerf.
Early game rushes like 4gating perhaps?
As a Terran, I'd be fine with some sort of Marauder nerf to compensate, and maybe in the end we'd see less One Base Heroes in Diamond.
|
On September 02 2010 21:20 Lucius2 wrote:
i have a pretty good idea considering the zealot nerf. what about just nerfing the GATEWAY time, but keeping the WARPGATE time the same as it is now. that way it would weaken the 2 gate, but later in the game it wont have an impact on your actualy army size.
and zealots are obviously never a problem past early game with rushes, so i think they dont deserve the warpgate nerf.
They said one of the reasons for the zealot nerf was that zealots with warp gates were too efficient at draining excess minerals. I don't think the 5 second delay late game will affect much anyway, the main problem is proxy gates/2 gate rushes I think.
Maybe they could have increased gateway build time instead? I don't know what other consequences that would have though.
|
On September 02 2010 08:40 TheHuHu wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but all Terran has to do in the new patch is to get +1 vehicle upgrades, which they almost always do, and they will start 2 shotting Zerglings / Hydralisks like they always have? So we are just left with a balance patch that is basically +5 to Reapers and +5 to Bunkers and....it's all balanced? PUHHHHHLEEAAZZZEE.
learn to get carapace upgrades (WHICH ZERG ALMOST ALWAYS DO ANYWAY) and you wont get two shot.
PUHHHHHLEEAAZZZEE stop the QQing
|
I've been thinking about what exactly is wrong - without listening to all the whiners - but it's very hard to say. Generally i'd put it down to:
- Terran tech tree is very short. Almost everything comes out early. Starport feels so fast and seems to hardly set you back.
- Terran (but also toss/zerg) units are less 'specialist' than in BW. They counter/stand up to more units, but less hard. Which means they're quite effective vs no matter what. Marines do ok vs large, tanks do ok vs small.
I was very pleased with Blizzard removing some of the hard stuff (games don't turn around quite so easily anymore). No more game-deciding reaver drops, storm drops, gas steals (2gas<3), turbo newbies, super mines. But that also means we see a lot more ball vs ball, something which Terran is very good at. Solutions? Maybe make terran units good vs only a couple units. Not like marauders, which are good vs all gateway units, hydra, roach, baneling, all barrack units...
|
On September 02 2010 23:13 italiangymnast wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 08:40 TheHuHu wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but all Terran has to do in the new patch is to get +1 vehicle upgrades, which they almost always do, and they will start 2 shotting Zerglings / Hydralisks like they always have? So we are just left with a balance patch that is basically +5 to Reapers and +5 to Bunkers and....it's all balanced? PUHHHHHLEEAAZZZEE. learn to get carapace upgrades (WHICH ZERG ALMOST ALWAYS DO ANYWAY) and you wont get two shot. PUHHHHHLEEAAZZZEE stop the QQing
You do realize if upgrades increases stay the same the siege tank gets 5 per upgrade and the hydras and zerglings get 1 per upgrade right So the terran gets 1 on weapons zergling carapace will never help but will save hydras (ignoring splash) but if the the terran sees the zerg has 1 on carapace then 2 on weapons will negate that as well as any future upgrades on carapace. While you should still upgrade it as it helps the hydras against other units and your ultras later on.
|
All this nonsense about tech "tiers" showing up here needs to stop.
If you straight tech (not saying this is smart, but it's certainly not too hard for Terran since we see 1/1/1 so often) it takes about the same amount of time (just a few seconds longer) for Terran to finish a Fusion Core as it does for Zerg to finish a Spire, IF he skips Metabolic Boost and Roaches entirely and gets his lair with the first 100 gas.
So that puts BCs squarely matched with Zerg's "tier 2", and Thors are roughly "tier 1.6".
Tech "tiers" have absolutely no meaning in the game. The phase or time of the game when you can safely get a unit out and functioning in a useful manner is what matters.
Anyway, regarding the patch: It's stupid, and it shows that Blizzard is determined not to change the things most seriously wrong with the game, the maps.
The tank nerf is completely unneeded. Even though it will have very little effect on TvZ because Zerg's light units happen to either be unusably cost-ineffective (hydras) or at 35 HP or less, it still wouldn't be needed if Blizzard just gave their projectiles a 0.1 second travel time so they overkilled, or possibly lowered the rate of fire instead, and made the maps more open. Tanks are still going to be stupidly strong simply because of their rate of fire and ability to automatically spread damage.
Zerg still has no siege units except Brood Lords which can't be defended from Vikings and thus Zerg can't break chokes.
Auto-repair and really repair in general is still broken as all hell unless they decided not to mention an AI change for some reason. So are Planetary Fortresses--super-easy expansions that defend themselves from 80 food armies for very little cost are not ever going to be a part of an interesting, dynamic RTS.
Marauders still have no real weaknesses on the ground but ridiculous strength. The majority of Terran games now come down to masses of Marauders attack-moving around the map or just dropping all over the place. In MLG we saw 40 minute TvTs of very little besides Marauders versus Marauders because anyone who went tanks just had Marauders stim and A-move them.
Reapers have not been changed in a way that will actually affect the game.
Zealots have been altered in a way that would not be a problem if the map travel distances were longer.
|
On September 01 2010 13:21 DeCoup wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 08:21 TheHuHu wrote:
The +5 second time on Reapers is atrocious. How about making it more than 50/50 for speed upgrade? Marauder's 50/50 upgrade for shells is so retarded as well.
Zealots speed upgrade cost 200/200 in tier 2 stages and is a cooldown ability. HUH? WHAT? I don't even play Protoss and that's retarded.
Make both upgrades for Reapers 100/100 and 125/125 for Marauders and we're almost even. The point of 50/50 upgrades is to create a time delay before the unit has its increased power, not to give a real cost vs reward decision. It also effects the way you use such units. Do I reveal my reaper/tank/banshee before I get my nitro/seige/cloak or do I keep it hidden (creating a time delay) before my new tech is useful? It's a time sink not a money sink. Edit:Changed sentence a bit
So how do you explain Blizzard's nerf to ove speed?
I can't remember exact quote, but I think it was along the lines of " we don't want to give players freebies tech anymore, they must now make an active decision if/when to get them".
I am starting to believe that Browder's sons are T players.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
