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On April 13 2011 14:45 KevinIX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:40 SolonTLG wrote:On April 13 2011 14:27 eviltomahawk wrote:
I can see why everyone cheesed on the short-lived DMZ. It looks terrible!
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I think it is quite ironic that a Korean Proleague had a map called DMZ, lol! Edit: DMZ = De-militarized Zone, and is the de facto border between North Korean and South Korean DMZ stands for Demilitarized Zone. It's not ironic. It was called DMZ, because units under disruption web can't attack. All those disruption webs are the demilitarized zones.
Um.... I think you just made my point. No military units IRL are allowed in the actual DMZ. You don't agree this is funny to have a SC map with a similar concept?
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Tonight's State of the Game was the best one I have heard so far. The Panel's analysis of the community and common player's misconception were spot on. Haters gonna hate.
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On April 13 2011 14:46 iNcontroL wrote:
the amount of anger/rage in this thread after each episode makes me seriously wonder why some of you listen to this show... if we annoy you that much stop listening? This isn't some punishment you are forced to endure.
I think some people are a little sad that the show ended on such a fun topic. I know I wanted to hear more! Thanks for the show guys, it was great.
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On April 13 2011 14:49 MrCon wrote:
Wow, this sotg started so trash and ended so beautifully. Amazing episode, I could've listened it for 2 or 3 more hours.
Yep, but apparently it's all about JP, so when he doesn't want to sit in his chair anymore he cuts off the stream. Pretty lame since I was absolutely digging the convo.
User was warned for this post
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On April 13 2011 14:49 SolonTLG wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:45 KevinIX wrote:On April 13 2011 14:40 SolonTLG wrote:On April 13 2011 14:27 eviltomahawk wrote:
I can see why everyone cheesed on the short-lived DMZ. It looks terrible!
....
I think it is quite ironic that a Korean Proleague had a map called DMZ, lol! Edit: DMZ = De-militarized Zone, and is the de facto border between North Korean and South Korean DMZ stands for Demilitarized Zone. It's not ironic. It was called DMZ, because units under disruption web can't attack. All those disruption webs are the demilitarized zones. Um.... I think you just made my point. No military units IRL are allowed in the actual DMZ. You don't agree this is funny to have a SC map with a similar concept?
Well, it's not ironic anyway. >.>
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On April 13 2011 14:46 iNcontroL wrote:
the amount of anger/rage in this thread after each episode makes me seriously wonder why some of you listen to this show... if we annoy you that much stop listening? This isn't some punishment you are forced to endure.
its not rage... i love hearing my favorite players give opinions on other games and events, and generally its a very funny show, im just sick of the anti approach to anything related to zerg having problems. i probably shouldnt give too much thought into balance since im not a pro, so i guess im at fault there.
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On April 13 2011 14:44 WniO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:40 Kiarip wrote:On April 13 2011 14:29 WniO wrote:
seriously... having 4 non zergs arguing that zerg is fine is really fucking annoying. i wonder how long the excuse will be that "Well you know, the game is, really young, so i mean you need to realize that things might be discovered, which will help zerg out." 1 year? 2 years? till HotS?
*EVEN IF* zergs units were perfectly balanced against toss/terrans units, it would still be fundamentally imbalanced due to the options t/p has against zerg. for instance,
There are 2 football teams, (american football.) Red and Blue. They both are completely even in all aspects, but team Red only has a third of the playcalls that the Blue team has. Red has to practice defending 3 times the amount of plays that blue has, and they only have a third of the plays that they can choose for offence... obviously blue will win more often than not.
Thats what starcraft 2 is like for zerg! They are team Red!
If you think that that's how fundamentally broken zerg is... Don't play zerg. but make sure that when you play VS zerg, you win EVERY SINGLE GAME, because it'd be a damn shame and embarrassment if you lost to the "red team." i play random now, and of course i lose to zergs... im not perfect, and i never said ppl should always win vs zerg. zerg is fundamentally broken, which does not mean they can never win.
Care to elaborate on how exactly you think zerg is "fundamentally broken" because your analogy makes, for lack of a better term, no fucking sense.
The game cannot simply be explained in terms like "zerg does not have as many options". I would refrain from trying o make ridiculous claims about intrinsic imbalances in a race when you can't even seem to grasp that the number of "options" in Starcraft, for all three races, is essentially infinite.
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BW talk was awesome.
There were definitely points when BW seemed completely imbalanced. However, people who persisted and didn't give up eventually came up with solutions to seemingly unbeatable builds. There is no perfect build. Spend enough time figuring it out and you'll find a weakness to exploit.
iNcontroL made a great point about multi-pronged attacks. SC2 Zergs seem to want to mass up a death ball and a-move it to victory. Zerg isn't the race for that, and wasn't in Broodwar either. Zerg has always needed positioning to have a full surround and to do economic harass. In Broodwar Zerg would harass Protoss all day and try to lure the ball into the open where Zerg would chip away at it with a concave, then make it run all over the place so it couldn't be aggressive, and just wear down the Protoss by starving him and doing lots of harassment to prevent the economy or infrastructure needed to reinforce the death ball.
Look at the way Terran plays with MM drops. Zerg can pay the 300/300 for overlord speed and drops, and could do 4 hydra drops or 4 baneling drops as aggressively as Terrans drop. Zerg keeps saying that Hydralisks are too useless because they're too slow to make use of their DPS. Why not treat them like MM drops then, where their DPS is used to quickly snipe workers or key tech structures and it's the Overlord that handles mobility? Going Hydralisk doesn't have to mean make 50 of them, making 4 and dropping them annoyingly can do serious economic damage and force all kinds of static defense. Hydralisk DPS is higher than Mutalisks and they're cheaper so you can afford to have a stronger main army while doing these annoying pokes. Baneling drops are very underutilized. Take 1 or 2 Overlords into mineral lines and drop Banelings, you'll likely kill all the workers or at least force them to run away. This works even on bases with a Planetary Fortress. If he has a Turret, only put 2 Banelings in each Overlord and use 2-3 so you can drop Banelings faster and no Overlord will die before unloading 2 Banelings. Heck why not roll over a clump of burrowed Supply Depots in a Terran base and blow them all up? The supply block on the Terran and the cost of rebuilding depots and SCV time wasted on it would be more than worth the ~4 Banelings that could do that much damage. They don't even need many extra overlords, they'll have tons of overlords around anyways.
Zerg never seems to do drop harass. Maybe occasionally with Mutas on mineral lines or Zerglings trying to deny an expansion, but drop is a completely viable and cost effective way to play. Zerg's drop mechanism is cheaper and more readily available than Terran drops because losing an Overlord doesn't hurt as much as losing a Medivac. Overlords are cheaper, build faster, and you'll likely have tons of extras doing nothing anyways. Also, Terrans generally only build Turrets along their mineral line, so specifically doing Baneling drops to target clumps of Supply Depots is entirely possible.
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Im pretty sure JP was talking to the guys in chat before he cut of the stream or something. Stop trashing him so much, everyone on the cast probably agreed it was time to stop the show.
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On April 13 2011 14:50 KevinIX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:49 SolonTLG wrote:On April 13 2011 14:45 KevinIX wrote:On April 13 2011 14:40 SolonTLG wrote:On April 13 2011 14:27 eviltomahawk wrote:
I can see why everyone cheesed on the short-lived DMZ. It looks terrible!
....
I think it is quite ironic that a Korean Proleague had a map called DMZ, lol! Edit: DMZ = De-militarized Zone, and is the de facto border between North Korean and South Korean DMZ stands for Demilitarized Zone. It's not ironic. It was called DMZ, because units under disruption web can't attack. All those disruption webs are the demilitarized zones. Um.... I think you just made my point. No military units IRL are allowed in the actual DMZ. You don't agree this is funny to have a SC map with a similar concept? Well, it's not ironic anyway. >.>
The ironic part is that the DMZ in korea is a big part of their history. While I don't think it was worth mentioning in the first place, you have to be pretty slow to not see the irony that he was pointing out.
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On April 13 2011 14:45 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:40 Spicy Pepper wrote:On April 13 2011 14:39 Jibba wrote:
Ok, that was probably my favorite SotG of all time. iNc totally changed my perspective on Nydus, and the BW talk at the end was amazing. <3 Haypro, Spanishwa, DRG (korean zerg) have been doing this for awhie on their streams. I saw DRG do this months ago. SOTG guys act like no zergs have explored this. It's not actually using Nydus. Limenade uses it all the time too. It's the fact that Nydus creates a threat that has to be responded to, no matter how costly it is to set up, and it thins the opponent's attention and forces. The dropship example from BW is a great parallel. It has to be combined with everything else Zerg players already do right, to make it properly useful in defocusing the enemy.
I love your point about a player having to combine multiple tools available to make the necessary impact on the game. It gives me a lot of hope knowing that someday in the future we'll get to see a player with the ability to do what you spoke about. People often talk about nydus/hydra/ultras being bad in an isolated sense, about unit Y sucking horribly against some unit composition, but it's really up to the player to weave these together to make it work well.
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Best sotg ever.. The broodwar analogies were fantastic, and they were completely on the money. I've been wondering for a while why more zergs don't do more multiprong attacks in the late game when it was pretty much the only way to win as zerg in brood war especially against protoss in the late stages of the game.
I mean a race where you can load up a ton of units with your supply structures(overlords) is absolutely designed for multiprong attacks as it relates to dropping one area and attacking another.
On that note, I felt that incontrol was one of the better late game players in brood war due to his ability to do multiprong attacks, which really showed off in his zvp.
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On April 13 2011 14:29 WniO wrote:
seriously... having 4 non zergs arguing that zerg is fine is really fucking annoying. i wonder how long the excuse will be that "Well you know, the game is, really young, so i mean you need to realize that things might be discovered, which will help zerg out." 1 year? 2 years? till HotS?
*EVEN IF* zergs units were perfectly balanced against toss/terrans units, it would still be fundamentally imbalanced due to the options t/p has against zerg. for instance,
There are 2 football teams, (american football.) Red and Blue. They both are completely even in all aspects, but team Red only has a third of the playcalls that the Blue team has. Red has to practice defending 3 times the amount of plays that blue has, and they only have a third of the plays that they can choose for offence... obviously blue will win more often than not.
Thats what starcraft 2 is like for zerg! They are team Red!
Try to pay attention. Nobody is saying zerg is fine. They're saying that nobody knows yet.
I'm not going to try to quote you all of the matches where zergs stomped similar level toss because I assume you have seen these already (NASL today?).
Look at the bold part. This is your problem. I have played bliz games since fucking warcraft 1. When starcraft came out, the WHOLE AWESOME PART was that there were NOT two identical teams going against each other. THIS WAS REVOLUTIONARY in strategy games. The races have different strengths and weaknesses. Comparing it to a sport like football is totally ignorant.
In THIS game (not red v blue football), the strategy comes in to forcing the opponent into the situations where your race is stronger. If you honestly think that zerg sucks, then try a different race that suits your RTS mentality or try something besides maxing a roach army with corruptors. If that doesn't agree with you, you can go play other RTS games where the teams are basically identical with different skins, like warcraft 1 and 2.
/drunkenpost
Edit: This SotG was awesome when you got into the deep discussion, btw. You keep reminding me why I love this game
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Before posting about balance, anyone should go in the broodwar strategy section read one or two threads to understand how refined the game is. So they can understand that sc2 is in his prehistoric state.
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If anything they should talk about topics like this MORE OFTEN with different guest races each week.
That would be what "state of the game" means. Right now, the show is more "This week, in Starcraft.." news show.
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On April 13 2011 14:46 iNcontroL wrote:
the amount of anger/rage in this thread after each episode makes me seriously wonder why some of you listen to this show... if we annoy you that much stop listening? This isn't some punishment you are forced to endure.
I'd just like to join in the ones balancing out the hate and say that this was some of the more interesting starcraft related things I've listened to for a long while. I really liked the way all of you guys approached peoples mentality about balance and blaming everything but themselves for losing. I think this point needs to be brought up more and hammered in and I think you guys did an excellent job explaining with bw references.
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United States22883 Posts
If anything, the balance discussion should be even more moot after today's Dreamhack. Morrow looked completely capable of taking out MC and IdrA held the advantage throughout g1 until he donated his Broodlords. Those were good games that were decided by player errors.
Also, iNcontroL, I asked this before but I'll ask again. Do you think the level of play would be higher if unlimited unit selection wasn't in the game? Would unit spread and attack angles be improved if max selection was like 20 units instead?
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Wow, tonight's episode was wonderful. I have never felt more enthusiastic about the state of SCII. Everything discussed was spot on - and there was a great bit of humor from the whole Artosis/4 Pillars interaction earlier in the cast - though I do feel a bit sorry that he did not win against Sheth. He's a great player, and I have to admit I watched NASL so that I could see his game. I hope he keeps playing in tournaments in the future.
Later in the cast - everything from the discussion of current Zerg mentality to reminiscing BW was absolutely spot on. I couldn't help but laugh at all the silly little things that happened during tonight's SotG, and it definitely cheered up my day.
JP and crew, your podcast definitely brings a little light to my week. Thank you for all that you do.
Nice job with NASL iNcontroL!
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On April 13 2011 14:54 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:50 KevinIX wrote:On April 13 2011 14:49 SolonTLG wrote:On April 13 2011 14:45 KevinIX wrote:On April 13 2011 14:40 SolonTLG wrote:On April 13 2011 14:27 eviltomahawk wrote:
I can see why everyone cheesed on the short-lived DMZ. It looks terrible!
....
I think it is quite ironic that a Korean Proleague had a map called DMZ, lol! Edit: DMZ = De-militarized Zone, and is the de facto border between North Korean and South Korean DMZ stands for Demilitarized Zone. It's not ironic. It was called DMZ, because units under disruption web can't attack. All those disruption webs are the demilitarized zones. Um.... I think you just made my point. No military units IRL are allowed in the actual DMZ. You don't agree this is funny to have a SC map with a similar concept? Well, it's not ironic anyway. >.> The ironic part is that the DMZ in korea is a big part of their history. While I don't think it was worth mentioning in the first place, you have to be pretty slow to not see the irony that he was pointing out.
How is that ironic? They named the map DMZ as a reference to the real DMZ.
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How long does it take for vod to show..missed first 10 min
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EPT
