|
On April 13 2011 15:04 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 15:02 KevinIX wrote:
It's because first it was just Zergs whining about Terrans. And protoss were ok. Then Zergs start whining about Protoss. And Terrans were still pissed at them for whining about Terran. So now both Protoss and Terran are pissed at Zerg. Terran have been nerfed in almost every way since GSL 1, and protoss has gotten a large number of buffs that it did not need in the first place. Not only that, but they fucked the metagame up again with the addition of a ton of new giant maps, after these patches. It's going to take a long time to stabilize again, months. And even then, I don't doubt another balance patch within 30-60 days.
Granted, those buffs were after P was nerfed every in every beta build save one, in which the only change was a reduction to archon build time.
I'm not saying P was UP because of those nerfs, but it left the race in a pretty linear place where air play other than voids wasn't an option and you desperately needed to get a robo early on so you could have an observer in time to scout your opponent's build(from which they would, of course, get colossi). It left the race incredibly vulnerable to cheese and Tyler was considered a dumbass for ever making a phoenix.
|
On April 13 2011 15:05 Spicy Pepper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:46 iNcontroL wrote:
the amount of anger/rage in this thread after each episode makes me seriously wonder why some of you listen to this show... if we annoy you that much stop listening? This isn't some punishment you are forced to endure. Why do you bother reading this thread?
I'm gonna take a wild guess and say it's because he's one of the main member of the show.
|
On April 13 2011 15:08 KevinIX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 15:05 grungust wrote:
After this show does anyone else feel like JP's role on the show could be more interactive/better in general? Incontrol's little diss that I think obviously offended JP really shouldn't have. JP's role clearly is to keep the show somewhat organized and keep the conversations flowing but time and time again, there is extremely awkward transitions between topics. JP rarely is able to take what someone else says and bounce it into another little conversation about that same topic. It's more like, "ok you're done talking, next topic." that's basically all he says all show long. I feel like the host should have more interactivity with the other members of SOTG, because as of right now it feels like JP is just throwing topics out and not really engaging in them. The reason for this seems to be his lack of love/passion for starcraft 2 like the other members. There is no doubt in my mind that he loves esports and is probably very busy but it really seems like he could care less about the actual game. It comes out in his casting as well.
To further explain my point about this, I was a listener of his previous podcast, arenacast, which was a WoW arena podcast. He was definitely much more involved and talkative in the cast because you could tell he actually loved playing and talking about WoW. It almost feels like JP only does SOTG because starcraft 2 is clearly the PC game for esports and he's basically just riding the bandwagon.It sucks because I don't really know his reasons why he comes off like this. Does he not play sc2 because he genuinely doesn't enjoy the game? Is he to busy? Who knows, but I really feel like it would be a huge improvement to SOTG for JP to get more involved in the actual game and have meaningful things to contribute to the topics, rather than being all about the production. I say this not be overly harsh but because I know he has the potential to improve because of what he did with Arenacast.
This has become a huge tangent and I'm basically fitting the criteria of the viewer that incontrol makes fun of so often but I'm going to just say I love SOTG, it's really great to have such a great cast of people on and amazing guests. I think JP does a lot of hard work and of course without him there would be no SOTG. I'm just a fan who thinks things could be better and that's why I left this rather long criticism. I don't think it's that JP doesn't Love the game as much as the others. JP just doesn't feel qualified, because he's not a pro. JP! You are qualified to talk, man. You're a random Master's league player. Give us your thoughts sometimes. Exactly. You don't need to be a pro to contribute. Not all topics require pro level analysis. Very few actually.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On April 13 2011 15:05 grungust wrote:
After this show does anyone else feel like JP's role on the show could be more interactive/better in general? Incontrol's little diss that I think obviously offended JP really shouldn't have. JP's role clearly is to keep the show somewhat organized and keep the conversations flowing but time and time again, there is extremely awkward transitions between topics. JP rarely is able to take what someone else says and bounce it into another little conversation about that same topic. It's more like, "ok you're done talking, next topic." that's basically all he says all show long. I feel like the host should have more interactivity with the other members of SOTG, because as of right now it feels like JP is just throwing topics out and not really engaging in them. The reason for this seems to be his lack of love/passion for starcraft 2 like the other members. There is no doubt in my mind that he loves esports and is probably very busy but it really seems like he could care less about the actual game. It comes out in his casting as well.
To further explain my point about this, I was a listener of his previous podcast, arenacast, which was a WoW arena podcast. He was definitely much more involved and talkative in the cast because you could tell he actually loved playing and talking about WoW. It almost feels like JP only does SOTG because starcraft 2 is clearly the PC game for esports and he's basically just riding the bandwagon.It sucks because I don't really know his reasons why he comes off like this. Does he not play sc2 because he genuinely doesn't enjoy the game? Is he to busy? Who knows, but I really feel like it would be a huge improvement to SOTG for JP to get more involved in the actual game and have meaningful things to contribute to the topics, rather than being all about the production. I say this not be overly harsh but because I know he has the potential to improve because of what he did with Arenacast.
This has become a huge tangent and I'm basically fitting the criteria of the viewer that incontrol makes fun of so often but I'm going to just say I love SOTG, it's really great to have such a great cast of people on and amazing guests. I think JP does a lot of hard work and of course without him there would be no SOTG. I'm just a fan who thinks things could be better and that's why I left this rather long criticism.
Well that is his role as the host; generally to get the ball moving and get input from the guests, not himself.
|
Such a depressing episode o.o
|
On April 13 2011 15:10 SupItsG wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 15:05 Spicy Pepper wrote:On April 13 2011 14:46 iNcontroL wrote:
the amount of anger/rage in this thread after each episode makes me seriously wonder why some of you listen to this show... if we annoy you that much stop listening? This isn't some punishment you are forced to endure. Why do you bother reading this thread? I'm gonna take a wild guess and say it's because he's one of the main member of the show.
I'll give another guess, the pros of reading the thread outweigh the cons. Maybe this is why people listen to the SOTG, besides being annoyed with parts of it. You can actually feel more than one emotion towards something. I don't 100% hate or 100% love the show.
|
On April 13 2011 15:13 djcube wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 13 2011 15:05 grungust wrote:
After this show does anyone else feel like JP's role on the show could be more interactive/better in general? Incontrol's little diss that I think obviously offended JP really shouldn't have. JP's role clearly is to keep the show somewhat organized and keep the conversations flowing but time and time again, there is extremely awkward transitions between topics. JP rarely is able to take what someone else says and bounce it into another little conversation about that same topic. It's more like, "ok you're done talking, next topic." that's basically all he says all show long. I feel like the host should have more interactivity with the other members of SOTG, because as of right now it feels like JP is just throwing topics out and not really engaging in them. The reason for this seems to be his lack of love/passion for starcraft 2 like the other members. There is no doubt in my mind that he loves esports and is probably very busy but it really seems like he could care less about the actual game. It comes out in his casting as well.
To further explain my point about this, I was a listener of his previous podcast, arenacast, which was a WoW arena podcast. He was definitely much more involved and talkative in the cast because you could tell he actually loved playing and talking about WoW. It almost feels like JP only does SOTG because starcraft 2 is clearly the PC game for esports and he's basically just riding the bandwagon.It sucks because I don't really know his reasons why he comes off like this. Does he not play sc2 because he genuinely doesn't enjoy the game? Is he to busy? Who knows, but I really feel like it would be a huge improvement to SOTG for JP to get more involved in the actual game and have meaningful things to contribute to the topics, rather than being all about the production. I say this not be overly harsh but because I know he has the potential to improve because of what he did with Arenacast.
This has become a huge tangent and I'm basically fitting the criteria of the viewer that incontrol makes fun of so often but I'm going to just say I love SOTG, it's really great to have such a great cast of people on and amazing guests. I think JP does a lot of hard work and of course without him there would be no SOTG. I'm just a fan who thinks things could be better and that's why I left this rather long criticism. Well that is his role as the host; generally to get the ball moving and get input from the guests, not himself.
I beg to differ, like i said on his last podcast he was also the host but it felt like he fit a lot better with the cast in general. He seemed more interested/involved with conversations. It also had pro level players on it as well. (lol@pro WoW players, i know)
|
Loved the show as always. In these past few months I've been attempting to get C- on iCCup, so it was fun to here the BW talk. 
|
I wonder what Nestea has been up to. He hasn't won anything in a while, I hope he's working on new strategies and builds.
I am really excited about Mondragon vs Cruncher in the TSL3. This is because Mondragon is relatively new to SC2 and may not have been part of the hive mind group think that has afflicted most Zerg players. Hopefully his Broodwar history and fresh entry to SC2 will allow him to play Zerg like he did in Broodwar.
I think the problem with Zerg was the original Roach. It was a tank and it was just too good at 1 food and with 2 armor. Zergs who started playing then got used to the idea of a Zerg death ball with mostly Roaches in it. Once the Roach got nerfed to 2 food and lost 1 armor, it wasn't as tanky anymore and couldn't really make up the core of a death ball. However, Zergs have continued to play the death ball game ever since due to the initial period when it worked. Zergs know their 200/200 army isn't as good, but they keep going for 200/200 clashes. If they know they aren't that good, why not sac drop after drop on multiple bases at once and keep remaxing? Why keep your army sitting in the middle waiting for a death ball clash against a superior foe? The fact that Zerg can remax so quickly with larvae inject means they should be constantly trading units to wear down their opponent. Relentless drop harass multi-pronged attacks is a good way to do that. Force the Protoss to run his death ball back and forth or split it up. Move in with your main army to engage a split death ball or take out bases furthest from the death ball.
Heck, why not drop 2 infestors into a base and toss out 8 infested terrans on the mineral line then retreat? It costs you only energy and the infested terrans have insane DPS. It is a nice little way to harass cheaply.
|
On April 13 2011 15:05 grungust wrote:
After this show does anyone else feel like JP's role on the show could be more interactive/better in general? Incontrol's little diss that I think obviously offended JP really shouldn't have. JP's role clearly is to keep the show somewhat organized and keep the conversations flowing but time and time again, there is extremely awkward transitions between topics. JP rarely is able to take what someone else says and bounce it into another little conversation about that same topic. It's more like, "ok you're done talking, next topic." that's basically all he says all show long. I feel like the host should have more interactivity with the other members of SOTG, because as of right now it feels like JP is just throwing topics out and not really engaging in them. The reason for this seems to be his lack of love/passion for starcraft 2 like the other members. There is no doubt in my mind that he loves esports and is probably very busy but it really seems like he could care less about the actual game. It comes out in his casting as well.
To further explain my point about this, I was a listener of his previous podcast, arenacast, which was a WoW arena podcast. He was definitely much more involved and talkative in the cast because you could tell he actually loved playing and talking about WoW. It almost feels like JP only does SOTG because starcraft 2 is clearly the PC game for esports and he's basically just riding the bandwagon.It sucks because I don't really know his reasons why he comes off like this. Does he not play sc2 because he genuinely doesn't enjoy the game? Is he to busy? Who knows, but I really feel like it would be a huge improvement to SOTG for JP to get more involved in the actual game and have meaningful things to contribute to the topics, rather than being all about the production. I say this not be overly harsh but because I know he has the potential to improve because of what he did with Arenacast.
This has become a huge tangent and I'm basically fitting the criteria of the viewer that incontrol makes fun of so often but I'm going to just say I love SOTG, it's really great to have such a great cast of people on and amazing guests. I think JP does a lot of hard work and of course without him there would be no SOTG. I'm just a fan who thinks things could be better and that's why I left this rather long criticism.
i gotta agree with ya. i feel like he is wasted space and that Inc or Day9 does a better job of creating engaging conversation. JP is not a great caster and he is not such a hot host. However, SotG is a great idea conceived by him, thus, I can't really say much ^^
|
On April 13 2011 15:19 Zzoram wrote:
I wonder what Nestea has been up to. He hasn't won anything in a while, I hope he's working on new strategies and builds.
I am really excited about Mondragon vs Cruncher in the TSL3. This is because Mondragon is relatively new to SC2 and may not have been part of the hive mind group think that has afflicted most Zerg players. Hopefully his Broodwar history and fresh entry to SC2 will allow him to play Zerg like he did in Broodwar.
I think the problem with Zerg was the original Roach. It was a tank and it was just too good at 1 food and with 2 armor. Zergs who started playing then got used to the idea of a Zerg death ball with mostly Roaches in it. Once the Roach got nerfed to 2 food and lost 1 armor, it wasn't as tanky anymore and couldn't really make up the core of a death ball. However, Zergs have continued to play the death ball game ever since due to the initial period when it worked. Zergs know their 200/200 army isn't as good, but they keep going for 200/200 clashes. If they know they aren't that good, why not sac drop after drop on multiple bases at once and keep remaxing? Why keep your army sitting in the middle waiting for a death ball clash against a superior foe? The fact that Zerg can remax so quickly with larvae inject means they should be constantly trading units to wear down their opponent. Relentless drop harass multi-pronged attacks is a good way to do that.
wrong thread?
|
Anyone else interested in their discussion about BW and how the metagame was approached vs how SC2 is being approached?
|
On April 13 2011 14:59 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:27 fire_brand wrote:
This was a great SotG. I love how they talked about the state of the game and not about balance, but about figuring out solutions. And how to force the game down certain paths. I especially like the whole thing about not stopping the deathball, but stopping it from coming. I've also been a huge supporter of the idea that the game hasn't really been explored enough, that players haven't explored options with certain units and tactics.
I really support the anti-imbalance mindset. I think when people start falling back on balance it stunts the game's growth. A new game like sc2 really needs people to spawn new strats and push the constraints of the game instead of blaming it all on imbalance. Try new things, find solutions, push the limits of the matchup. If something doesn't work after you've tried it 30 games in a row, do something different. Find those edges of the game they're talking about.
Anyways great cast. Thanks guys. What annoys me the most of about IdrA's attitude is that he expects the game to be balanced in a way were the races become homogenous. That the zerg should be able to sit back, turtle up and build a zerg deathball that matches up to the toss deathball. If he wants a protoss deathball, he should just switch to toss. If he wants to mass expand, harass constantly, control the map and deny an opponent's growth, he should play zerg. It just seems like he's resisting the innate strengths of the race.
Zerg have a couple innate strengths, one of them being the larva mechanic makes drone production insane (macro) the other is the movement speed of most units is really fast, hydras are considered snails but have the same movement speed of most units (2.25).
Zerg building up to a "death ball" is pretty intuitive actually.. the race that gains the most from passive play (in macro advantages) is generally going to be passive... While I think that attacking while you macro to lower your opponents supply while keeping your advantage is a great way to play their is so much front end damage for both T and P that any mid-game army while macroing is going to be relatively weaker.
Slings are effectively negated in the mid game (tank/colossi). Granted they are useful in scouting and harassment but are not useful in much else and muta play vs P is ill advised because of the 6 gate push that will destroy you if you tech for mutas.
While I bitch about all of these things, I still think there is a lot of room for growth (at least a little bit) and theory crafting is only going to get so far.
|
It certainly is easy to keep saying that we ought to give it more time as someone who isn't a zerg player or a player who doesn't play professionally. How long should we wait? A year? 2 years? 4? You still haven't addressed this.
I haven't listened to this episode yet, but at least Tyler and possibly Incontrol as well seem to be saying they know what zergs could be doing but are not, that is to say utilizing strategies and not just making fewer mistakes. Have they been telling their teammates to try these strategies? Have all the other protosses, say MC, been likewise been helping teammates with the matchup? The answer is obviously yes, and it's not working. My impression is that there aren't actually many high level players, of any race, in Korea who think the matchup is fine. I dare say they understand, as a whole, the mathcup better than Tyler and Incontrol. Also I recall Tyler and Incontrol complaining about certain balance changes by Blizzard, so obviously they aren't above talking balance.
|
On April 13 2011 15:04 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 15:02 KevinIX wrote:
It's because first it was just Zergs whining about Terrans. And protoss were ok. Then Zergs start whining about Protoss. And Terrans were still pissed at them for whining about Terran. So now both Protoss and Terran are pissed at Zerg. Terran have been nerfed in almost every way since GSL 1, and protoss has gotten a large number of buffs that it did not need in the first place. Not only that, but they fucked the metagame up again with the addition of a ton of new giant maps, after these patches. It's going to take a long time to stabilize again, months. And even then, I don't doubt another balance patch within 30-60 days.
Protoss have gotten more nerfs than buffs.
Nerfs
Zealots build time got nerfed,
Void ray speed taken out.
VR damage reduced
HT KA taken out.
Buffs
Phoenix build time reduced
Observer build time/cost reduced
Hallucination cost reduced.
I'll agree about larger maps helping toss more and it was supposed to help zerg from rax and gate pushes but with warp gate distance means little.
Anyway IdrA should have won game 1 but he failed to continue his roach push after destorying most of MC's army.
|
|
|
On April 13 2011 15:20 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 15:05 grungust wrote:
After this show does anyone else feel like JP's role on the show could be more interactive/better in general? Incontrol's little diss that I think obviously offended JP really shouldn't have. JP's role clearly is to keep the show somewhat organized and keep the conversations flowing but time and time again, there is extremely awkward transitions between topics. JP rarely is able to take what someone else says and bounce it into another little conversation about that same topic. It's more like, "ok you're done talking, next topic." that's basically all he says all show long. I feel like the host should have more interactivity with the other members of SOTG, because as of right now it feels like JP is just throwing topics out and not really engaging in them. The reason for this seems to be his lack of love/passion for starcraft 2 like the other members. There is no doubt in my mind that he loves esports and is probably very busy but it really seems like he could care less about the actual game. It comes out in his casting as well.
To further explain my point about this, I was a listener of his previous podcast, arenacast, which was a WoW arena podcast. He was definitely much more involved and talkative in the cast because you could tell he actually loved playing and talking about WoW. It almost feels like JP only does SOTG because starcraft 2 is clearly the PC game for esports and he's basically just riding the bandwagon.It sucks because I don't really know his reasons why he comes off like this. Does he not play sc2 because he genuinely doesn't enjoy the game? Is he to busy? Who knows, but I really feel like it would be a huge improvement to SOTG for JP to get more involved in the actual game and have meaningful things to contribute to the topics, rather than being all about the production. I say this not be overly harsh but because I know he has the potential to improve because of what he did with Arenacast.
This has become a huge tangent and I'm basically fitting the criteria of the viewer that incontrol makes fun of so often but I'm going to just say I love SOTG, it's really great to have such a great cast of people on and amazing guests. I think JP does a lot of hard work and of course without him there would be no SOTG. I'm just a fan who thinks things could be better and that's why I left this rather long criticism. i gotta agree with ya. i feel like he is wasted space and that Inc or Day9 does a better job of creating engaging conversation. JP is not a great caster and he is not such a hot host. However, SotG is a great idea conceived by him, thus, I can't really say much ^^
JP might not be a top level progamer or anything but I wouldn't call him wasted space.. He brings organization and has the most hilarious awkward transitions and I really like the dynamic that exists between him and Incontrol. I do see what some of you guys are saying though I would like him to be more engaged in conversations as he does sort of sit them out and just ask another member to comment on a topic as if he is not qualified enough
|
Is the mp3 already up anywhere? I need it so badly because of a long travel today.. 
|
EDIT: Someone else posted the same thing except, made a lot more sense....
|
On April 13 2011 15:23 sCorz wrote:
Anyone interested in their discussion about BW and how the metagame was approached vs how SC2 is being approached, should do the same. This episode made me realize people should really stop worrying about balance so much and focus finding ways around the "walls" they run into.
I think there's an unfounded hope that SC2 balance will turn out like BW balance. As far as I can tell, there's pretty much no evidence whatsoever to suggest this. They're two different games, you might as well compare it to Counterstrike.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
