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Did not listen to this week's podcast but been following this thread, and judging from the posts of fellow TL'ers I see what the talk was about. I have to agree with others that it's hillarious.
On April 13 2011 14:16 Goibon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:07 Spicy Pepper wrote:Have some pro zergs on to talk about how you get there. I'm at the point where i don't want to hear from any pro zergs anymore. It feels like the vocal ones have given up, and i think they're wrong to do so. It's depressing, like, "oh no, here's the emo zerg let's hear him cry about how he can't do anything". Reminds me of a few months ago when Geoff and Tyler (this discussion making them hypocrites likely) were saying how the only thing they could do was go Colossi and thus Protoss were weak (paraphrasing of course). It was the most pathetic shit i ever heard. Now Protoss is winning and they're telling Zerg to explore their options. Now to be fair Geoff did admit at the time that perhaps there are new things they could do (ie: build units not from a robo) but he sounded pretty emo and defeated. Not at a Zerg level like they are today, where it feels they (or at least Idra) have given up completely. But it was close. I like how things go in cycles. Pretty hilarious.
Yeah. It'll be fun if the patches/expansions come out and somehow the tide turns, it'll be hilarious to hear them saying "use 12 warp prisms and harrass all over the map, they are cheaper than Nydus" or "mass carriers to fight off infestors". Oh, wait.
Are any top Zerg players actually experimenting with Nydus? By experiment I mean playing a week's worth of games using Nydus every game that goes past 12 minutes. You can't figure out the best use for Nydus without using it a ton in a ton of different scenarios. Someone might stumble upon something good.
I've seen a few Nydus attempts in the previous GSL. I don't remember seeing any of them worked out - both for infiltrating and for fast transport. I believe it's SanZenith v. oGsTheWind, and Fruitdealer v AnyproPrime. I mean, if you're toss and your main and/or natural is being nydus'ed, then you probably shouldn't be in code S. XD
But the point is, I see the Zergs trying. They do indeed try to be creative - nydus, drops, bainling bombs, stealth all-ins, you name it. If anything I see almost all Zerg units being used by Z players, trying to make something happen. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for the Protoss players. It's almost always the same unit composition, with devastating pheonix/void ray harrass opening mixed in here and there. It's not like Protoss players show some innovative game play every game. Anyone can see which side is/has to be working harder in the ZvP match-up at the high level.
So it makes it even more comical that protoss players demand zerg players be more creative when I don't see anything creative from the protoss play. (and still wins)
Look at interviews that Artosis has done with Korean pros. The non-zergs are saying that zerg is imbalanced.
This is sort of true. They have teammates of all races, and they do understand the state of match up. Some even have the courtesy of acknowledging their own races' strength.
Also I read PlayXP and TL.net, and the atmosphere is hugely different. On PlayXP, Z whines have drastically reduced.. why? Because they gained T/P allies. (I'm one of them) Lol. Even T/P players pity the Z players there and the concensus seems to be that Z needs some help. On TL.net, it seems Protoss, Protoss, Protoss, from top to the bottom.
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On April 13 2011 14:52 Zzoram wrote:
Zerg's drop mechanism is cheaper and more readily available than Terran drops because losing an Overlord doesn't hurt as much as losing a Medivac. Overlords are cheaper, build faster, and you'll likely have tons of extras doing nothing anyways. Also, Terrans generally only build Turrets along their mineral line, so specifically doing Baneling drops to target clumps of Supply Depots is entirely possible.
Overlords don't heal at 13.5 hp/s though. Medivacs would be built even if they didn't act as drop ships.
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Sean announced that Nick used to call him El Gato...
I can only assume it's because cats have [9] lives ^^
I'm quite glad that everyone on SotG shot down the idea that entertainment value is even remotely comparable to playing to win, in reference to+ Show Spoiler + MC's cheese that helped win him the final game at Dreamhack against White-Ra.
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On April 13 2011 14:27 fire_brand wrote:
This was a great SotG. I love how they talked about the state of the game and not about balance, but about figuring out solutions. And how to force the game down certain paths. I especially like the whole thing about not stopping the deathball, but stopping it from coming. I've also been a huge supporter of the idea that the game hasn't really been explored enough, that players haven't explored options with certain units and tactics.
I really support the anti-imbalance mindset. I think when people start falling back on balance it stunts the game's growth. A new game like sc2 really needs people to spawn new strats and push the constraints of the game instead of blaming it all on imbalance. Try new things, find solutions, push the limits of the matchup. If something doesn't work after you've tried it 30 games in a row, do something different. Find those edges of the game they're talking about.
Anyways great cast. Thanks guys.
What annoys me the most of about IdrA's attitude is that he expects the game to be balanced in a way were the races become homogenous. That the zerg should be able to sit back, turtle up and build a zerg deathball that matches up to the toss deathball.
If he wants a protoss deathball, he should just switch to toss. If he wants to mass expand, harass constantly, control the map and deny an opponent's growth, he should play zerg.
It just seems like he's resisting the innate strengths of the race.
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On April 13 2011 14:49 Spicy Pepper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:43 slyboogie wrote:On April 13 2011 14:39 Spicy Pepper wrote:On April 13 2011 14:28 Jibba wrote:On April 13 2011 14:23 Spicy Pepper wrote:On April 13 2011 14:17 Zzoram wrote:
Are any top Zerg players actually experimenting with Nydus? By experiment I mean playing a week's worth of games using Nydus every game that goes past 12 minutes. You can't figure out the best use for Nydus without using it a ton in a ton of different scenarios. Someone might stumble upon something good. Of course they are. Just watch some streams. These guys make it sound like all Zergs are some narrow minded players, incapable of thinking up ideas like "hey you know what, maybe I should try other things". No, this concept is beyond all professional zergs, but luckily we have Day9 to suggest hey there's Nyduses. Please get this revelation out to all pro zergs. They were not aware you could use Nyduses in other places on the map besides sneaking it into their opponent's base. You don't need to be facetious. The argument you're making is the exact same that's always been made before a paradigm shift took place. From business to sports to ESPORTS. Zergs are mishandling key components to their game and they have been stubborn, just as Ps used to be and as Z were before that. None of them have said the game is balanced or imbalanced. They've said that players have a lot of room to improve their game. I'm sorry that using sarcasm has touched a nerve, but I'm no more facetious than the SOTG guys. The argument I'm making is just ONE argument. Have some pros zergs on the SOTG podcast that will advocate why zergs aren't imbalanced and what zergs should do. In none of my posts, did I personally argue that zerg is imbalanced. What the SOTG guys have done is strawman the pro zergs' arguments about how zerg is imbalanced, and basically laughed at guys like Idra and Artosis when they came on to argue their points. The simplest way to show how pro zergs are wrong to argue how zerg is imbalanced is to have ONE show with multiple pro zergs that will argue why zerg IS NOT imbalanced. The SotG guys arent' being facetious, I suspect they sincerely believe what they say. You keep asking for a pro Zerg who won't argue that Zerg is imbalanced; we get it, there probably isn't one. These players are saying "who cares?" The great ones make it happen. In BW, there is a reverence for players like Boxer, iloveoov and Savior(erm..) because they changed the game - through micro, macro, build order, mechanics...whatever. Zerg has GREAT players, given the time, they will develop the metagame as well. If there isn't one, then I think this needs to be vocalized in some manner, so the game can be better balanced.
The whole message of that SotG is that players have to stop praying to Blizzard. Patches should not be like manna from heaven, there's not need for it! The game belongs to the players. It is up to Morrow and Sen and Idra and Nestea to continue developing. I don't care that they vocalize their frustrations, that's fine. What matters it that they have never switched races, they have never quit the game. They are still struggling and improving. Great players will overcome the weaknesses of their game, and yes, their race.
SC2 is not tic-tac-toe, where going second guarantee's a non-win outcome. It isn't Chess, where black has a fundamental disadvantage. It's too dynamic for that. There is to much emergent gameplay that hasn't...emerged. Do I get the frustration? Sure! I think imba all the time. But I'm not a pro; they'll find a way to improve, hopefully without a Blizzard intervention.
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On April 13 2011 14:57 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:52 Zzoram wrote:
Zerg's drop mechanism is cheaper and more readily available than Terran drops because losing an Overlord doesn't hurt as much as losing a Medivac. Overlords are cheaper, build faster, and you'll likely have tons of extras doing nothing anyways. Also, Terrans generally only build Turrets along their mineral line, so specifically doing Baneling drops to target clumps of Supply Depots is entirely possible. Overlords don't heal at 13.5 hp/s though. Medivacs would be built even if they didn't act as drop ships.
And medivacs would still be built even if they didn't act as medics.
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On April 13 2011 14:51 WniO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:46 iNcontroL wrote:
the amount of anger/rage in this thread after each episode makes me seriously wonder why some of you listen to this show... if we annoy you that much stop listening? This isn't some punishment you are forced to endure. its not rage... i love hearing my favorite players give opinions on other games and events, and generally its a very funny show, im just sick of the anti approach to anything related to zerg having problems. i probably shouldnt give too much thought into balance since im not a pro, so i guess im at fault there.
you have to expect people to get tired of the zerg complaining and make counter-arguments. there's been so much whine about it since beta, and while it was definitely justified back then, and probably is justified now to a lesser degree, it is getting old.
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On April 13 2011 14:57 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:52 Zzoram wrote:
Zerg's drop mechanism is cheaper and more readily available than Terran drops because losing an Overlord doesn't hurt as much as losing a Medivac. Overlords are cheaper, build faster, and you'll likely have tons of extras doing nothing anyways. Also, Terrans generally only build Turrets along their mineral line, so specifically doing Baneling drops to target clumps of Supply Depots is entirely possible. Overlords don't heal at 13.5 hp/s though. Medivacs would be built even if they didn't act as drop ships.
And they would be built even if they didn't heal. I think we can all agree with the point that comparing overlords to dropships in a 1 to 1 sense doesn't make sense. They happen to share one ability, overlords can do things that a dropship can't and vice versa.
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On April 13 2011 14:56 Jibba wrote:
If anything, the balance discussion should be even more moot after today's Dreamhack. Morrow looked completely capable of taking out MC and IdrA held the advantage throughout g1 until he donated his Broodlords. Those were good games that were decided by player errors.
Also, iNcontroL, I asked this before but I'll ask again. Do you think the level of play would be higher if unlimited unit selection wasn't in the game? Would unit spread and attack angles be improved if max selection was like 20 units instead?
I've no doubt. I've seen more Infestor's A + moved into Siege tanks than i want to remember. I really feel, especially after this episode, that SC2 players are worse at the game than Brood War players. DayJ preaches this a lot too - use more control groups.
I wanna know what all all that APM is for when people have one control group with all their shit in it.
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On April 13 2011 14:56 Jibba wrote:
If anything, the balance discussion should be even more moot after today's Dreamhack. Morrow looked completely capable of taking out MC and IdrA held the advantage throughout g1 until he donated his Broodlords. Those were good games that were decided by player errors.
Also, iNcontroL, I asked this before but I'll ask again. Do you think the level of play would be higher if unlimited unit selection wasn't in the game? Would unit spread and attack angles be improved if max selection was like 20 units instead?
I certainly think so. In Broodwar players seemed to actually position their units so much better. In SC2, even the best players in the world seem to just 1-a to their doom far too often. If they were forced to split up their units to multiple control groups, we wouldn't see so many Protoss players run Stalkers in ahead of Zealots due to 1-a for example.
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On April 13 2011 14:50 KevinIX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:49 SolonTLG wrote:On April 13 2011 14:45 KevinIX wrote:On April 13 2011 14:40 SolonTLG wrote:On April 13 2011 14:27 eviltomahawk wrote:
I can see why everyone cheesed on the short-lived DMZ. It looks terrible!
....
I think it is quite ironic that a Korean Proleague had a map called DMZ, lol! Edit: DMZ = De-militarized Zone, and is the de facto border between North Korean and South Korean DMZ stands for Demilitarized Zone. It's not ironic. It was called DMZ, because units under disruption web can't attack. All those disruption webs are the demilitarized zones. Um.... I think you just made my point. No military units IRL are allowed in the actual DMZ. You don't agree this is funny to have a SC map with a similar concept? Well, it's not ironic anyway. >.>
Kevin, I love you man, but I'm still gonna disagree 
The reason the DMZ map name is ironic is exactly because no one is going to die playing starcraft. Real people risk their lives every year along the real DMZ. The United States has about 27,500 troops along the DMZ, an entire armored division, lots of air support, and the US Navy is never far off. In Korea, every male has to do military service and lots of them are sent to bases along the DMZ.
A synonym for "irony" is "satire", and I think naming a map DMZ in the Korean context can be considered satire, imo. Although many of us take SC quite seriously, it is only a game. (Blasphemy I know!)
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Love this show and all the people on it.
Such a massive asset for the sc community.
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On April 13 2011 14:46 iNcontroL wrote:
the amount of anger/rage in this thread after each episode makes me seriously wonder why some of you listen to this show... if we annoy you that much stop listening? This isn't some punishment you are forced to endure.
Haters gonna hate.
The vast majority of us really enjoy watching the State of the Game casts You guys did an awesome job tonight, and you, sir, should be proud of how NASL Day 1 turned out! Awesome production so far
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It's because first it was just Zergs whining about Terrans. And protoss were ok. Then Zergs start whining about Protoss. And Terrans were still pissed at them for whining about Terran. So now both Protoss and Terran are pissed at Zerg.
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Just did the Day 9 Daily. I'm a crappy player, so I turtled up with spines and mass queens, and won with ultras. I had more money than I knew what to do with.
But yeah, a squad of Overseers with full energy -- pretty good. You can goop up almost everything.
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On April 13 2011 14:43 Chicane wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:39 Jibba wrote:
Ok, that was probably my favorite SotG of all time. iNc totally changed my perspective on Nydus, and the BW talk at the end was amazing. <3 No he didn't... he just stated the obvious, yet many zergs still don't want to try it. Being able to teleport armies around the map is... actually amazing.
Did you just say that this person's perspective wasn't changed by InControl's points? How would you know that?
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On April 13 2011 15:02 KevinIX wrote:
It's because first it was just Zergs whining about Terrans. And protoss were ok. Then Zergs start whining about Protoss. And Terrans were still pissed at them for whining about Terran. So now both Protoss and Terran are pissed at Zerg.
Terran have been nerfed in almost every way since GSL 1, and protoss has gotten a large number of buffs that it did not need in the first place.
Not only that, but they fucked the metagame up again with the addition of a ton of new giant maps, after these patches.
It's going to take a long time to stabilize again, months. And even then, I don't doubt another balance patch within 30-60 days.
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After this show does anyone else feel like JP's role on the show could be more interactive/better in general? Incontrol's little diss that I think obviously offended JP really shouldn't have. JP's role clearly is to keep the show somewhat organized and keep the conversations flowing but time and time again, there is extremely awkward transitions between topics. JP rarely is able to take what someone else says and bounce it into another little conversation about that same topic. It's more like, "ok you're done talking, next topic." that's basically all he says all show long. I feel like the host should have more interactivity with the other members of SOTG, because as of right now it feels like JP is just throwing topics out and not really engaging in them. The reason for this seems to be his lack of love/passion for starcraft 2 like the other members. There is no doubt in my mind that he loves esports and is probably very busy but it really seems like he could care less about the actual game. It comes out in his casting as well.
To further explain my point about this, I was a listener of his previous podcast, arenacast, which was a WoW arena podcast. He was definitely much more involved and talkative in the cast because you could tell he actually loved playing and talking about WoW. It almost feels like JP only does SOTG because starcraft 2 is clearly the PC game for esports and he's basically just riding the bandwagon.It sucks because I don't really know his reasons why he comes off like this. Does he not play sc2 because he genuinely doesn't enjoy the game? Is he to busy? Who knows, but I really feel like it would be a huge improvement to SOTG for JP to get more involved in the actual game and have meaningful things to contribute to the topics, rather than being all about the production. I say this not be overly harsh but because I know he has the potential to improve because of what he did with Arenacast.
This has become a huge tangent and I'm basically fitting the criteria of the viewer that incontrol makes fun of so often but I'm going to just say I love SOTG, it's really great to have such a great cast of people on and amazing guests. I think JP does a lot of hard work and of course without him there would be no SOTG. I'm just a fan who thinks things could be better and that's why I left this rather long criticism.
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On April 13 2011 14:46 iNcontroL wrote:
the amount of anger/rage in this thread after each episode makes me seriously wonder why some of you listen to this show... if we annoy you that much stop listening? This isn't some punishment you are forced to endure.
Why do you bother reading this thread?
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On April 13 2011 15:05 grungust wrote:
After this show does anyone else feel like JP's role on the show could be more interactive/better in general? Incontrol's little diss that I think obviously offended JP really shouldn't have. JP's role clearly is to keep the show somewhat organized and keep the conversations flowing but time and time again, there is extremely awkward transitions between topics. JP rarely is able to take what someone else says and bounce it into another little conversation about that same topic. It's more like, "ok you're done talking, next topic." that's basically all he says all show long. I feel like the host should have more interactivity with the other members of SOTG, because as of right now it feels like JP is just throwing topics out and not really engaging in them. The reason for this seems to be his lack of love/passion for starcraft 2 like the other members. There is no doubt in my mind that he loves esports and is probably very busy but it really seems like he could care less about the actual game. It comes out in his casting as well.
To further explain my point about this, I was a listener of his previous podcast, arenacast, which was a WoW arena podcast. He was definitely much more involved and talkative in the cast because you could tell he actually loved playing and talking about WoW. It almost feels like JP only does SOTG because starcraft 2 is clearly the PC game for esports and he's basically just riding the bandwagon.It sucks because I don't really know his reasons why he comes off like this. Does he not play sc2 because he genuinely doesn't enjoy the game? Is he to busy? Who knows, but I really feel like it would be a huge improvement to SOTG for JP to get more involved in the actual game and have meaningful things to contribute to the topics, rather than being all about the production. I say this not be overly harsh but because I know he has the potential to improve because of what he did with Arenacast.
This has become a huge tangent and I'm basically fitting the criteria of the viewer that incontrol makes fun of so often but I'm going to just say I love SOTG, it's really great to have such a great cast of people on and amazing guests. I think JP does a lot of hard work and of course without him there would be no SOTG. I'm just a fan who thinks things could be better and that's why I left this rather long criticism.
I don't think it's that JP doesn't Love the game as much as the others. JP just doesn't feel qualified, because he's not a pro. JP! You are qualified to talk, man. You're a random Master's league player. Give us your thoughts sometimes.
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EPT
