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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On April 13 2011 14:44 WniO wrote: i play random now, and of course i lose to zergs... im not perfect, and i never said ppl should always win vs zerg. zerg is fundamentally broken, which does not mean they can never win. you're stating it like it's a fact | ||
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Icx
Belgium853 Posts
This whole imbalance discussion has just gone to far imo, a bunch of people tried to explain the reasoning behind what they said, but it's still going on. In the end this thread has just reached an alltime low imo, to a point where it is starting to effect the show and it seems to be getting on a lot of people their nerves (the constant whining about every single thing they can find). I didn't think I would ever say this, but I feel like at this point it would be just better off closing this thread for new reply's, and making it so that only JP for example can update it when a new show comes. Just my 2 cents on this whole thing that has been going on for so long now. And to close it off, you guys are doing a great job, and there are tons of people who absolutely love the show, and altough some people don't always agree with your points, atleast they can try to understand the other side of the argument. But well to bad that it's always the negative minority that is the loudest. | ||
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
On April 13 2011 14:59 KevinIX wrote: And medivacs would still be built even if they didn't act as medics. just as much as warp prisms and ovie drop/speed is.... | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On April 13 2011 15:29 Nakas wrote: I think there's an unfounded hope that SC2 balance will turn out like BW balance. As far as I can tell, there's pretty much no evidence whatsoever to suggest this. They're two different games, you might as well compare it to Counterstrike. There's no evidence to suggest either way. The point they're trying to make it that you should withhold judgment until people are playing better. Right now there's just so many flaws in everyone's play. | ||
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Adventitia
1 Post
On April 13 2011 14:54 Funkatron wrote: Try to pay attention. Nobody is saying zerg is fine. They're saying that nobody knows yet. I'm not going to try to quote you all of the matches where zergs stomped similar level toss because I assume you have seen these already (NASL today?). Look at the bold part. This is your problem. I have played bliz games since fucking warcraft 1. When starcraft came out, the WHOLE AWESOME PART was that there were NOT two identical teams going against each other. THIS WAS REVOLUTIONARY in strategy games. The races have different strengths and weaknesses. Comparing it to a sport like football is totally ignorant. In THIS game (not red v blue football), the strategy comes in to forcing the opponent into the situations where your race is stronger. If you honestly think that zerg sucks, then try a different race that suits your RTS mentality or try something besides maxing a roach army with corruptors. If that doesn't agree with you, you can go play other RTS games where the teams are basically identical with different skins, like warcraft 1 and 2. /drunkenpost Edit: This SotG was awesome when you got into the deep discussion, btw. You keep reminding me why I love this game Do you really think it would be good for the game if everyone quit zerg until the "geniuses" figured out the matchup? | ||
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
On April 13 2011 15:00 sniverty wrote: And they would be built even if they didn't heal. I think we can all agree with the point that comparing overlords to dropships in a 1 to 1 sense doesn't make sense. They happen to share one ability, overlords can do things that a dropship can't and vice versa. True. medivacs do have their disadvantages and advantages, same as ovies. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10848 Posts
On April 13 2011 14:59 KevinIX wrote: And medivacs would still be built even if they didn't act as medics. Yeah... Probably as often as Warp-Prisms.... oh.. wait.. | ||
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bone577
Australia65 Posts
On April 13 2011 15:23 sCorz wrote: Anytime I've tried to make a thread in SC2 general about requesting Tyler, Day[9] and iNcontrol to do a special I've been deleted. So instead I am PMing each one of them, and I think everyone else should do the same! Anyone interested in their discussion about BW and how the metagame was approached vs how SC2 is being approached, should do the same. This episode made me realize people should really stop worrying about balance so much and focus finding ways around the "walls" they run into. Anyone who wants to join me and PM them about this, here are links to their profiles: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/profile.php?user=iNcontroL http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/profile.php?user=Day[9] http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/profile.php?user=Liquid`Tyler If a thread you start keeps getting deleted, why do you insist on making them? Perhaps it would be more prudent to not make them. Flooding them with PM's hardly seems like a reasonable reaction either. Of course, make sure that if you do send them a PM, to tell them that if they don't make the special episode, someone else will. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Aequos
Canada606 Posts
On April 13 2011 15:33 Velr wrote: Yeah... Probably as often as Warp-Prisms.... oh.. wait.. Bio is far better than gateway in small numbers. 4 marauders destroy buildings faster than anything toss has, and 8 marines kill probes far faster than even storm drops. I'd be willing to bet bio Terran would still build them. | ||
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elmizzt
United States3309 Posts
On April 13 2011 14:59 KevinIX wrote: And medivacs would still be built even if they didn't act as medics. And overlords would still be built even if they didn't act as dropships. See how retarded that made me sound? | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On April 13 2011 15:31 ixi.genocide wrote: just as much as warp prisms and ovie drop/speed is.... I see Terran players make medivacs for dropping purposes way more than I see zerg's get drops and protoss players make warp prisms. Plus both those units are terribly under utilized right now. Terrans realize how strong drops are so they do it often. Zergs are starting to do this too. NASL spoiler + Show Spoiler + Look at the Sheth vs Artosis game. Sheth used drops beautifully. Dropping roaches in Artosis's base and expansions and then the rain of banelings all over his army. It was beautiful and its something we don't see enough of. And when we do see it, IT WORKS! No strategy will be a 100% win rate in every case. There are so many variables in this game that haven't even been explored yet. Saying a game is fundamentally broken when it hasn't even been a year since the launch of the game is ridiculous. Maybe Zerg's fundamental thinking is broken. It's just so annoying to see Zergs complaining all the time. Thats why everyone else just says go try something new. Your just so damn annoying to help. These guys come up with different ideas and they get shot down right away before any experimentation. It is not Tyler and iNcontroL's job to tell you the magic Zerg strategy. They are protoss players. Get to work. You may have to work harder, but tough shit. Then when you figure it out Terran's and Protoss's will have to figure it out. | ||
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Grantiere
United States129 Posts
On April 13 2011 14:29 WniO wrote: seriously... having 4 non zergs arguing that zerg is fine is really fucking annoying. i wonder how long the excuse will be that "Well you know, the game is, really young, so i mean you need to realize that things might be discovered, which will help zerg out." 1 year? 2 years? till HotS? *EVEN IF* zergs units were perfectly balanced against toss/terrans units, it would still be fundamentally imbalanced due to the options t/p has against zerg. for instance, There are 2 football teams, (american football.) Red and Blue. They both are completely even in all aspects, but team Red only has a third of the playcalls that the Blue team has. Red has to practice defending 3 times the amount of plays that blue has, and they only have a third of the plays that they can choose for offence... obviously blue will win more often than not. Thats what starcraft 2 is like for zerg! They are team Red! That's a terrible analogy. Once upon a time, football was 3 yards and a cloud of dust. A game manly men played, where everything was even and the manliest men won. Then one day some less manly man got tired of losing and decided to mix it up. Thus was born the single wing offense. Followed by the double wing. And the wishbone. And the run-and-shoot. And the west coast offense. And the shotgun and pistol formations. And the A-11. Defenses countered with the 3-4 formation, nickel and dime packages, the 46, the zone blitz, the Tampa 2. When faced with a limited set of perceived options, people innovated. It took time. The single and double wings were prevalent for 40 years or so. Starcraft 2 has a finite set of options. This is true. What zergs are arguing is that the permutations of the what / when / where / why / how have been fully explored, and are lacking. What Tyler with his doors analogy and he, Day9, and Incontrol with their BW experience are arguing is that they aren't all explored to nearly the level of refinement necessary to make a conclusive case, and that it's unhealthy as a pro to approach the game as otherwise. It's easy to understand progamers being impatient. It's their livelihood. They don't necessarily have 2, 3, or 5 years for SC2 to be as refined as nostalgia recalls BW being. It sucks to be a fullback in the current state of the NFL, with pass-heavy offenses relatively ahead of power-run offenses in solving today's defenses. As fans and observers, we have the luxury of taking a longer view. We don't all have to choose to take it, mind you. I'm annoyed if my team is limited by the imagination of the offensive coordinator (damn you, Jimmy Raye) and loses because of inferior player compositions. Still, that doesn't mean that the game is fundamentally flawed. It just means we're seeing this from a snapshot at a point in time in the evolution of a constantly changing game. | ||
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Nakas
United States148 Posts
On April 13 2011 15:32 Jibba wrote: There's no evidence to suggest either way. The point they're trying to make it that you should withhold judgment until people are playing better. Right now there's just so many flaws in everyone's play. There is evidence: the evidence is zerg getting owned by protoss. The BW mentality seems to be that if we wait long enough that things will swing back to even. My point is that there's no reason to believe that this will happen in SC2 just because it happened in BW. In fact, it seems to me that it's swinging the other way. | ||
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Spicy Pepper
United States632 Posts
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 13 2011 15:19 Zzoram wrote: I wonder what Nestea has been up to. He hasn't won anything in a while, I hope he's working on new strategies and builds. I am really excited about Mondragon vs Cruncher in the TSL3. This is because Mondragon is relatively new to SC2 and may not have been part of the hive mind group think that has afflicted most Zerg players. Hopefully his Broodwar history and fresh entry to SC2 will allow him to play Zerg like he did in Broodwar. I think the problem with Zerg was the original Roach. It was a tank and it was just too good at 1 food and with 2 armor. Zergs who started playing then got used to the idea of a Zerg death ball with mostly Roaches in it. Once the Roach got nerfed to 2 food and lost 1 armor, it wasn't as tanky anymore and couldn't really make up the core of a death ball. However, Zergs have continued to play the death ball game ever since due to the initial period when it worked. Zergs know their 200/200 army isn't as good, but they keep going for 200/200 clashes. If they know they aren't that good, why not sac drop after drop on multiple bases at once and keep remaxing? Why keep your army sitting in the middle waiting for a death ball clash against a superior foe? The fact that Zerg can remax so quickly with larvae inject means they should be constantly trading units to wear down their opponent. Relentless drop harass multi-pronged attacks is a good way to do that. Force the Protoss to run his death ball back and forth or split it up. Move in with your main army to engage a split death ball or take out bases furthest from the death ball. Heck, why not drop 2 infestors into a base and toss out 8 infested terrans on the mineral line then retreat? It costs you only energy and the infested terrans have insane DPS. It is a nice little way to harass cheaply. All this and more. Zergs are doing fine. Korean zergs. Just look up Losira or Nestea's w/l vs very good protoss' , they dominate, or Losira all killing GTSL, and running through code A, or July virtually all killing in world GSL. Foreigner Zergs are just underrepresented and that gets most attention because we are in foreigner community. But I don't buy imba but rather like you say thinking they can 200 vs 200 with toss or terran when they're not supposed to be able to according to blizzard. If they play more like their Korean compatriots they'd do a lot better. | ||
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
On April 13 2011 15:19 Zzoram wrote: I think the problem with Zerg was the original Roach. It was a tank and it was just too good at 1 food and with 2 armor. Zergs who started playing then got used to the idea of a Zerg death ball with mostly Roaches in it. Once the Roach got nerfed to 2 food and lost 1 armor, it wasn't as tanky anymore and couldn't really make up the core of a death ball. However, Zergs have continued to play the death ball game ever since due to the initial period when it worked. Zergs know their 200/200 army isn't as good, but they keep going for 200/200 clashes. If they know they aren't that good, why not sac drop after drop on multiple bases at once and keep remaxing? Why keep your army sitting in the middle waiting for a death ball clash against a superior foe? The fact that Zerg can remax so quickly with larvae inject means they should be constantly trading units to wear down their opponent. Relentless drop harass multi-pronged attacks is a good way to do that. Force the Protoss to run his death ball back and forth or split it up. Move in with your main army to engage a split death ball or take out bases furthest from the death ball. Heck, why not drop 2 infestors into a base and toss out 8 infested terrans on the mineral line then retreat? It costs you only energy and the infested terrans have insane DPS. It is a nice little way to harass cheaply. Infester play should be seen more often, I think with burrow being more common in ZvP we could see more infester harass and that would be awesome. As far as the Roach goes. I disagree completely, the unit sees hardly any play in zvt and it is one of the only viable options in ZvP. Since the 6gate pressure was evolved muta play is dangerous, hydras are destroyed by colossi, Zerglings are destroyed by ff and colossi and zealots, banelings are negated largely by ff, would like to see more infester play, and corrupters are already prett integral when fighting colossi. The roach is pretty good against gateway and not immediately dead to colossi. The corrupter can hit the colossi so they aren't completely useless (they are useless against stalker/sentry/zealot though). The innovation is going to come from infesters and burrow and drops and nydus. Nydus are extremely loud and their cost is pretty big for how loud they are; The infester and burrow play shouldbe explored more and the drops are kind of downplayed because of the stalker/marine (great air defense that is always massed). I wouldn't say that drop play is bad at all, and should be explored but what else would you have zergs do........ | ||
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sCorz
United States7 Posts
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kaileah
171 Posts
With that said, I think that IdrA is still stuck in Brood War and that he's unsuitable for zerg in starcraft 2 with his current mentality. In Brood War, he played with a turtle macro terran mindset and that got him a lot of success. However, now that he's switching over to zerg in starcraft 2, it seems like he's stuck somewhere in the mindset of a Brood War terran and a Brood War zerg. He wants all the strategical elements of the brood war turtle macro terran while wanting the mechanical elements of the Brood War zerg. To this point of his starcraft 2 career, the general consensus is that IdrA lacks creativity, is highly predictable, and relies on his superior mechanics to win him games. A lot of the pitfalls he falls into seems to be because he has NOT fully transferred over to the mindset of a zerg. Much of the imbalance talks he has seems to result with him saying 'zerg needs this unit' which would help his playstyle rather than him trying to change his playstyle radically. Granted that zerg is different in starcraft 2 than in brood war, but his playstyle seems much more terran to me than it does a zerg. His zerg seems fundamentally different than that of Sen (who i consider to be the best foreign zerg at the moment), Nestea, or even Mondragon. My 2 cents don't really matter after all, i know, but just think that the current IdrA should just switch to terran where his current mindset and playstyle would gain him more success and would basically rival Jinro as one of the best macro terrans in the world. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
e: stop focusing on Idra; every zerg in every continent is having the same issues | ||
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