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On April 13 2011 16:08 Defacer wrote:
Imagine if Toss whined all day about not having any viable anti-air in the late game, that phoenixes were good in the mid game but too weak and void rays were too frail and slow.
All the Zergs would whisper, "Try building some fucking carriers. They have the highest range and DPS in the game."
And then, instead of trying to find a viable build to get to carriers, the Toss whined about how expensive they are, how they take forever, et cetera et cetera.
The SOTG hosts are right. There are a plethora of unique abilities that the Zerg have that are under-used. Maybe instead of complaining about how difficult it is to actually exploit these abilities, Zerg's should rethink their approach to the game, so they can create situations where they can exploit these abilities.
I actually like this analogy. Toss anti-air is kind of bad, but we work around it by not letting the Zerg get the 50 muta ball it ideally wants by either:
1) 6-gating to kill them if they tried to go muta-ling or
2) Making them spend gas on non-muta units.
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Why don't people try to line up drops and speed together? By the time they're getting the upgrades from lair they should have 2 hatches, hopefully 3, then start burrow, around 50% start drops then start speed when burrow finishes...I think this is the time when you will get speed and drops around the same time, then no one will have any idea as you can load them up right away without giving it away.
I need to play around with some nydus builds, I like the idea on a map like xel naga using nydus in the secret hallway and then one in the middle of the map, and move your army down that corner, lure their army to that corner then run to the middle of the map to move them around then drop one somewhere else (like in their main).
Question, I build 4 nydus canals, I use all of them at the same time, will my army appear in all of them or just the one which is linked to the one my army entered?
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Does anyone ever use Nydus for flanking? Nydus to a safe spot between the protoss ball and his base, so you can engage the ball from both sides? Because hitting from both sides makes the zerg army much stronger.
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On April 13 2011 16:21 OptimusYale wrote:
Why don't people try to line up drops and speed together? By the time they're getting the upgrades from lair they should have 2 hatches, hopefully 3, then start burrow, around 50% start drops then start speed when burrow finishes...I think this is the time when you will get speed and drops around the same time, then no one will have any idea as you can load them up right away without giving it away.
I need to play around with some nydus builds, I like the idea on a map like xel naga using nydus in the secret hallway and then one in the middle of the map, and move your army down that corner, lure their army to that corner then run to the middle of the map to move them around then drop one somewhere else (like in their main).
Question, I build 4 nydus canals, I use all of them at the same time, will my army appear in all of them or just the one which is linked to the one my army entered?
You army can exit out of any nydus you have
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On April 13 2011 16:08 Defacer wrote:
Imagine if Toss whined all day about not having any viable anti-air in the late game, that phoenixes were good in the mid game but too weak and void rays were too frail and slow.
All the Zergs would whisper, "Try building some fucking carriers. They have the highest range and DPS in the game."
And then, instead of trying to find a viable build to get to carriers, the Toss whined about how expensive they are, how they take forever, et cetera et cetera.
The SOTG hosts are right. There are a plethora of unique abilities that the Zerg have that are under-used. Maybe instead of complaining about how difficult it is to actually exploit these abilities, Zerg's should rethink their approach to the game, so they can create situations where they can exploit these abilities.
Blink Stalkers own everything in the Air. Everything. And they"re not even T3 units.
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On April 13 2011 16:00 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 15:55 sniverty wrote:
[
well then it's time to ask ourselves why zerg is getting owned by protoss. Maybe zergs need a new kind of playstyle? We know protoss is susceptible to drop harass. Why can't we abandon the whole idea of massing roaches and corruptors and instead engage the enemy indirectly? Even without the colossus, it's pretty damn hard for zerg to engage a protoss army head on, thanks to force fields. Which is why things like hydra/baneling drops, contaminates, nydus networks, aggresive creep spread for map control are all better options than sitting in your base and spamming roaches till maxed. This may feel like the zerg having to massively outplay the toss to win, but what if it becomes the norm? Because when the toss sees you've wasted gas and money on drops and units to drop, they're going to take their death ball and kill your base, and you'll have nothing to stop it. You can't harass someone to death as Zerg. You need to harass but also win army vs army engagements. You can't win massive army vs army engagements, so you must force your opponent to split his army but that's hard. That's why Zerg is in the state its in - you can do all this cool tricky harass with muta/drops/nydus but at the end of the day there's nothing stopping him from a+moving into your main where all your tech is. Can you imagine a situation where a zerg player gets to a+move their army into a Terran or Protoss base? I can't, unless the game was already over.
This is one of the main issues zergs have. You're so deep in the imba shit that you can't even see the vulnerabilities of protoss and terran.
A good example is IdrA vs MC in Metal at Dreamhack last night. IdrA had the game won with his midgame roach/hydra/ling preassure had he just gone again with the reinforcement roaches, but he backed off, droned up his third and waited for toss to get back up to 170+ food. He overestimated the protoss army when he could've just A+moved into him and won.
Somehow it seems that zergs think they should be able to do both (harass and kill the army). Harass the shit out of the opponent and pin them back while beeing able to crush the army over and over again. That would be insanely imbalanced, since neither toss or terran could ever move out and a 200/200 army would still diminish and get rolled over, not only by the main zerg army, but to reinforcements...
And seriously, people who argue these points that BW is a completely different game than SC2 must fucking never have played BW. The strategy mentality of zerg is still very similar, the larvae mechanic works the same way BUT you have ways to rebuild sick amounts of units due to queens. That doesnt change the fact that 1 larvae is 1 larvae and that is either 1 drone or 1 unit. If you made too many drones in BW you died to early timing pushes, if you made too many units you died to later timing pushes see any resemblance?
Zerg always needed to pin back protoss and terran and prevent them from moving out so zerg could get good eco and tech/upgrades to fortify the position and then RUN AROUND THE ARMY prevent expansions and dwindle down the the terran and protoss armies.
Later on with upgrades and defilers you could engage in smaller fights, and later on with ultras you could roll over opponents if they didnt have the later tech themselves, and I understand people think there is a key difference here between the games that zerg doesnt have a hightier unit that can do that anymore due to how Ultras are too big and clunky and BLs beeing expensive as hell and hard to get - basically there is no defiler. That's true, but seriously why isnt the infestor used more? We always see the same crap, lategame hydra/roach with a touch of corrupter and later on BLs in ZvP and maybe a few infestors. Infestor are lairtech and if you survive long enough to get to big amounts of infestors, you'd have the unit you need to both stay alive and exchange blows with the protoss force. Once Protoss is on three base, lingdrops and nyduses are hardly an investment, they are very easy means to split up the protoss force and by doing so you can damage eco while holding down from a big all-in which can easily be triggered.
Another thing I've been thinking about is that if you spend most of your gas on infestors, why not just make more drones and build mobile static defense with your minerals? I don't think this is explored enough for example. Once protoss engages and starts to drop in numbers due to massive amounts of fungals you can flood with fully upgraded lings...
Something else I dont think is explored enough is stacking up larvae. Why even make units if you can scout enough. Scouting is hard indeed, but scouting the front and once you have OL speed/Overseer zerg can easily spot what's coming. On certain maps you can easily calculate how long it'd take for the army of protoss to move to a certain location and by just stacking up on larvae and tech/expand faster you could with better scouting just make the "correct" unit comp on one go with your larvae that you've saved up when he moves out. Ofc if you manage to get infestor tech, making them to gain more energy is never a bad thing... but a midgame gateway push for example can be stopped by hydra/roach/ling or just roach ling, or burrow roach. With enough scouting you could easily tech that route and get the eco up first and build the units you need to hold the push when/if it comes. Yes it's walking the line, and that's what every zerg does in BW to date. Yes, if protoss doesnt go for the kill you made wasted units, but then it's time to put preassure back on your opponent (like IdrA did at Dreamhack).
This goes for pretty much anything I guess. This is what people do to hold off 4-gates, why not do something similar to midgame pushes? It could even trigger timing pushes since protoss wouldnt see much of an army, so it could be used for baiting purposes.
Likely noone will read this, and it's a waste of time, and people will just keep argue that protoss is imba and no one can do anything about it. This toxic thoughtprocess just annoys me to death, because as we could see at dreamhack it even makes you loose games that you have won (IdrA vs MC, and IdrA vs HuK at MLG).
Thanks for an awesome show SotG <3
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On April 13 2011 16:21 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:08 Defacer wrote:
Imagine if Toss whined all day about not having any viable anti-air in the late game, that phoenixes were good in the mid game but too weak and void rays were too frail and slow.
All the Zergs would whisper, "Try building some fucking carriers. They have the highest range and DPS in the game."
And then, instead of trying to find a viable build to get to carriers, the Toss whined about how expensive they are, how they take forever, et cetera et cetera.
The SOTG hosts are right. There are a plethora of unique abilities that the Zerg have that are under-used. Maybe instead of complaining about how difficult it is to actually exploit these abilities, Zerg's should rethink their approach to the game, so they can create situations where they can exploit these abilities.
I actually like this analogy. Toss anti-air is kind of bad, but we work around it by not letting the Zerg get the 50 muta ball it ideally wants by either: 1) 6-gating to kill them if they tried to go muta-ling or 2) Making them spend gas on non-muta units.
It's a wrong analogy. Not a single zerg unit is left unexplored. If there is, please make an example.
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On April 13 2011 16:28 Gotmog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:21 Aequos wrote:On April 13 2011 16:08 Defacer wrote:
Imagine if Toss whined all day about not having any viable anti-air in the late game, that phoenixes were good in the mid game but too weak and void rays were too frail and slow.
All the Zergs would whisper, "Try building some fucking carriers. They have the highest range and DPS in the game."
And then, instead of trying to find a viable build to get to carriers, the Toss whined about how expensive they are, how they take forever, et cetera et cetera.
The SOTG hosts are right. There are a plethora of unique abilities that the Zerg have that are under-used. Maybe instead of complaining about how difficult it is to actually exploit these abilities, Zerg's should rethink their approach to the game, so they can create situations where they can exploit these abilities.
I actually like this analogy. Toss anti-air is kind of bad, but we work around it by not letting the Zerg get the 50 muta ball it ideally wants by either: 1) 6-gating to kill them if they tried to go muta-ling or 2) Making them spend gas on non-muta units. It's a wrong analogy. Not a single zerg unit is left unexplored. If there is, please make an example.
Overlord dropping of hydras, lings and blings hasn't been fully explored. Dropping blings on workers seems like a low cost no brainer with potentially huge payoff, it's like a reaver drop, but it's still pretty much never done. What are people spending their 400apm on?
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On April 13 2011 15:58 elmizzt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 15:50 syllogism wrote:On April 13 2011 15:48 elmizzt wrote:On April 13 2011 15:44 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 15:32 Jibba wrote:On April 13 2011 15:29 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 15:23 sCorz wrote:
Anyone interested in their discussion about BW and how the metagame was approached vs how SC2 is being approached, should do the same. This episode made me realize people should really stop worrying about balance so much and focus finding ways around the "walls" they run into.
I think there's an unfounded hope that SC2 balance will turn out like BW balance. As far as I can tell, there's pretty much no evidence whatsoever to suggest this. They're two different games, you might as well compare it to Counterstrike. There's no evidence to suggest either way. The point they're trying to make it that you should withhold judgment until people are playing better. Right now there's just so many flaws in everyone's play. There is evidence: the evidence is zerg getting owned by protoss. The BW mentality seems to be that if we wait long enough that things will swing back to even. My point is that there's no reason to believe that this will happen in SC2 just because it happened in BW. In fact, it seems to me that it's swinging the other way. Wait let me get this clear: You just said that the evidence that SC2 balance will not turn out like BW balance is that "zerg is getting owned by protoss"? wooowwwwww You don't need much evidence at all because it's always more likely than not that the game is not balanced in its current state. In SC2 balance issues are more apparent than in BW as it's much more difficult to just outplay your opponent to the extent the issues won't matter. HAhahahah holy crap people need to learn to read before posting.
The post directly addressed what you wrote, even if you for whatever reason fail to see the connection
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On April 13 2011 16:28 Gotmog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:21 Aequos wrote:On April 13 2011 16:08 Defacer wrote:
Imagine if Toss whined all day about not having any viable anti-air in the late game, that phoenixes were good in the mid game but too weak and void rays were too frail and slow.
All the Zergs would whisper, "Try building some fucking carriers. They have the highest range and DPS in the game."
And then, instead of trying to find a viable build to get to carriers, the Toss whined about how expensive they are, how they take forever, et cetera et cetera.
The SOTG hosts are right. There are a plethora of unique abilities that the Zerg have that are under-used. Maybe instead of complaining about how difficult it is to actually exploit these abilities, Zerg's should rethink their approach to the game, so they can create situations where they can exploit these abilities.
I actually like this analogy. Toss anti-air is kind of bad, but we work around it by not letting the Zerg get the 50 muta ball it ideally wants by either: 1) 6-gating to kill them if they tried to go muta-ling or 2) Making them spend gas on non-muta units. It's a wrong analogy. Not a single zerg unit is left unexplored. If there is, please make an example.
It's not whether or not a unit is unexplored but instead if it has been explored enough. As stated in the latest SotG, Infestors and Nydus Worms are under-explored despite their huge potential.
Creative Nydus Worm usage has huge potential to abuse Protoss immobility despite the cost. Mass Infestor usage is a solution to the huge gas intake that a Zerg can potentially get from taking so many bases so quickly. Plus, Fungal Growth is quite devastating against Terran bio and Protoss Gateway units.
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On April 13 2011 15:25 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 15:04 Mailing wrote:On April 13 2011 15:02 KevinIX wrote:
It's because first it was just Zergs whining about Terrans. And protoss were ok. Then Zergs start whining about Protoss. And Terrans were still pissed at them for whining about Terran. So now both Protoss and Terran are pissed at Zerg. Terran have been nerfed in almost every way since GSL 1, and protoss has gotten a large number of buffs that it did not need in the first place. Not only that, but they fucked the metagame up again with the addition of a ton of new giant maps, after these patches. It's going to take a long time to stabilize again, months. And even then, I don't doubt another balance patch within 30-60 days. I'll agree about larger maps helping toss more and it was supposed to help zerg from rax and gate pushes but with warp gate distance means little. Anyway IdrA should have won game 1 but he failed to continue his roach push after destorying most of MC's army.
Can i ask something, have you ever seen a pro zerg, come back from that huge deficit?
Zerg is so fragile and week that you can sometimes even die because of a good placed pylon/canon...not to mention other things, if you don't react perfectly.
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On April 13 2011 16:28 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:00 darkscream wrote:On April 13 2011 15:55 sniverty wrote:
[
well then it's time to ask ourselves why zerg is getting owned by protoss. Maybe zergs need a new kind of playstyle? We know protoss is susceptible to drop harass. Why can't we abandon the whole idea of massing roaches and corruptors and instead engage the enemy indirectly? Even without the colossus, it's pretty damn hard for zerg to engage a protoss army head on, thanks to force fields. Which is why things like hydra/baneling drops, contaminates, nydus networks, aggresive creep spread for map control are all better options than sitting in your base and spamming roaches till maxed. This may feel like the zerg having to massively outplay the toss to win, but what if it becomes the norm? Because when the toss sees you've wasted gas and money on drops and units to drop, they're going to take their death ball and kill your base, and you'll have nothing to stop it. You can't harass someone to death as Zerg. You need to harass but also win army vs army engagements. You can't win massive army vs army engagements, so you must force your opponent to split his army but that's hard. That's why Zerg is in the state its in - you can do all this cool tricky harass with muta/drops/nydus but at the end of the day there's nothing stopping him from a+moving into your main where all your tech is. Can you imagine a situation where a zerg player gets to a+move their army into a Terran or Protoss base? I can't, unless the game was already over. This is one of the main issues zergs have. You're so deep in the imba shit that you can't even see the vulnerabilities of protoss and terran. A good example is IdrA vs MC in Metal at Dreamhack last night. IdrA had the game won with his midgame roach/hydra/ling preassure had he just gone again with the reinforcement roaches, but he backed off, droned up his third and waited for toss to get back up to 170+ food. He overestimated the protoss army when he could've just A+moved into him and won. Somehow it seems that zergs think they should be able to do both (harass and kill the army). Harass the shit out of the opponent and pin them back while beeing able to crush the army over and over again. That would be insanely imbalanced, since neither toss or terran could ever move out and a 200/200 army would still diminish and get rolled over, not only by the main zerg army, but to reinforcements... And seriously, people who argue these points that BW is a completely different game than SC2 must fucking never have played BW. The strategy mentality of zerg is still very similar, the larvae mechanic works the same way BUT you have ways to rebuild sick amounts of units due to queens. That doesnt change the fact that 1 larvae is 1 larvae and that is either 1 drone or 1 unit. If you made too many drones in BW you died to early timing pushes, if you made too many units you died to later timing pushes see any resemblance? Zerg always needed to pin back protoss and terran and prevent them from moving out so zerg could get good eco and tech/upgrades to fortify the position and then RUN AROUND THE ARMY prevent expansions and dwindle down the the terran and protoss armies. Later on with upgrades and defilers you could engage in smaller fights, and later on with ultras you could roll over opponents if they didnt have the later tech themselves, and I understand people think there is a key difference here between the games that zerg doesnt have a hightier unit that can do that anymore due to how Ultras are too big and clunky and BLs beeing expensive as hell and hard to get - basically there is no defiler. That's true, but seriously why isnt the infestor used more? We always see the same crap, lategame hydra/roach with a touch of corrupter and later on BLs in ZvP and maybe a few infestors. Infestor are lairtech and if you survive long enough to get to big amounts of infestors, you'd have the unit you need to both stay alive and exchange blows with the protoss force. Once Protoss is on three base, lingdrops and nyduses are hardly an investment, they are very easy means to split up the protoss force and by doing so you can damage eco while holding down from a big all-in which can easily be triggered. Another thing I've been thinking about is that if you spend most of your gas on infestors, why not just make more drones and build mobile static defense with your minerals? I don't think this is explored enough for example. Once protoss engages and starts to drop in numbers due to massive amounts of fungals you can flood with fully upgraded lings... Something else I dont think is explored enough is stacking up larvae. Why even make units if you can scout enough. Scouting is hard indeed, but scouting the front and once you have OL speed/Overseer zerg can easily spot what's coming. On certain maps you can easily calculate how long it'd take for the army of protoss to move to a certain location and by just stacking up on larvae and tech/expand faster you could with better scouting just make the "correct" unit comp on one go with your larvae that you've saved up when he moves out. Ofc if you manage to get infestor tech, making them to gain more energy is never a bad thing... but a midgame gateway push for example can be stopped by hydra/roach/ling or just roach ling, or burrow roach. With enough scouting you could easily tech that route and get the eco up first and build the units you need to hold the push when/if it comes. Yes it's walking the line, and that's what every zerg does in BW to date. Yes, if protoss doesnt go for the kill you made wasted units, but then it's time to put preassure back on your opponent (like IdrA did at Dreamhack). This goes for pretty much anything I guess. This is what people do to hold off 4-gates, why not do something similar to midgame pushes? It could even trigger timing pushes since protoss wouldnt see much of an army, so it could be used for baiting purposes. Likely noone will read this, and it's a waste of time, and people will just keep argue that protoss is imba and no one can do anything about it. This toxic thoughtprocess just annoys me to death, because as we could see at dreamhack it even makes you loose games that you have won (IdrA vs MC, and IdrA vs HuK at MLG). Thanks for an awesome show SotG <3
Good post. Most zergs feel like they'd get rolled over by the main protoss army if they tried to be too cute with harass, but we don't know that for sure. Static defenses, using nydus to inflict damage and retreat to your base when you see the toss at your doorstep, creep spread to deny expansions and have map control are all viable options. No zerg has even come close to exploiting the race's abilities properly, even professional players aren't great when it comes to creep or with contaminate harass. I remember Day9 saying sometime ago that zerg would be ridiculously good when players had enough game experience to be good at things like creep, overlord placement and scouting, let alone utilizing harass options.
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Great show this evening, even if everyone was sad. Artosis's presence was hilarious as always (imba imba world), and I really appreciated the Brood War insight. I believe that it is important that people fight the good fight against those who are too quick to blame imbalance (even if real imbalance exists). We lose all the interesting bits of the game when we do that, as you were all alluding to. We don't want that!
Beating those really good, seemingly unbeatable strategies or compositions is one of the things that makes the game so compelling! If we just nerf them down whenever we see them, the game will never get the chance to develop past them. And figuring out how to beat them isn't something that can happen over night! Or, to extend Tyler's earlier metaphor from this thread, some doors are just really hard to open... but that doesn't mean there isn't food (or prize money) behind them!
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On April 13 2011 16:28 Gotmog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:21 Aequos wrote:On April 13 2011 16:08 Defacer wrote:
Imagine if Toss whined all day about not having any viable anti-air in the late game, that phoenixes were good in the mid game but too weak and void rays were too frail and slow.
All the Zergs would whisper, "Try building some fucking carriers. They have the highest range and DPS in the game."
And then, instead of trying to find a viable build to get to carriers, the Toss whined about how expensive they are, how they take forever, et cetera et cetera.
The SOTG hosts are right. There are a plethora of unique abilities that the Zerg have that are under-used. Maybe instead of complaining about how difficult it is to actually exploit these abilities, Zerg's should rethink their approach to the game, so they can create situations where they can exploit these abilities.
I actually like this analogy. Toss anti-air is kind of bad, but we work around it by not letting the Zerg get the 50 muta ball it ideally wants by either: 1) 6-gating to kill them if they tried to go muta-ling or 2) Making them spend gas on non-muta units. It's a wrong analogy. Not a single zerg unit is left unexplored. If there is, please make an example.
Yet there are plenty of unit combinations still to be explored.
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On April 13 2011 16:36 Gotmog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 15:25 tdt wrote:On April 13 2011 15:04 Mailing wrote:On April 13 2011 15:02 KevinIX wrote:
It's because first it was just Zergs whining about Terrans. And protoss were ok. Then Zergs start whining about Protoss. And Terrans were still pissed at them for whining about Terran. So now both Protoss and Terran are pissed at Zerg. Terran have been nerfed in almost every way since GSL 1, and protoss has gotten a large number of buffs that it did not need in the first place. Not only that, but they fucked the metagame up again with the addition of a ton of new giant maps, after these patches. It's going to take a long time to stabilize again, months. And even then, I don't doubt another balance patch within 30-60 days. I'll agree about larger maps helping toss more and it was supposed to help zerg from rax and gate pushes but with warp gate distance means little. Anyway IdrA should have won game 1 but he failed to continue his roach push after destorying most of MC's army. Can i ask something, have you ever seen a pro zerg, come back from that huge deficit? Zerg is so fragile and week that you can sometimes even die because of a good placed pylon/canon...not to mention other things, if you don't react perfectly.
I've seen Nestea defend and come back from deficits many many times in the GSL.
Idra would have won if it wasn't for that horrible engagement at the xel'naga tower. Zergs really need to stop with the defeatist attitude. It's ALWAYS about not having a chance or the zerg getting lucky if he wins.
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On April 13 2011 16:28 Gotmog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:21 Aequos wrote:On April 13 2011 16:08 Defacer wrote:
Imagine if Toss whined all day about not having any viable anti-air in the late game, that phoenixes were good in the mid game but too weak and void rays were too frail and slow.
All the Zergs would whisper, "Try building some fucking carriers. They have the highest range and DPS in the game."
And then, instead of trying to find a viable build to get to carriers, the Toss whined about how expensive they are, how they take forever, et cetera et cetera.
The SOTG hosts are right. There are a plethora of unique abilities that the Zerg have that are under-used. Maybe instead of complaining about how difficult it is to actually exploit these abilities, Zerg's should rethink their approach to the game, so they can create situations where they can exploit these abilities.
I actually like this analogy. Toss anti-air is kind of bad, but we work around it by not letting the Zerg get the 50 muta ball it ideally wants by either: 1) 6-gating to kill them if they tried to go muta-ling or 2) Making them spend gas on non-muta units. It's a wrong analogy. Not a single zerg unit is left unexplored. If there is, please make an example.
Notice my examples weren't of unexplored units solving the issue, but rather unexplored timings dealing with it.
We can't kill 50 mutas flying around in a giant ball without a massive pheonix commitment that will only defeat 50 mutas flying around, and nothing else. So we fight it by ensuring that Zerg can't make 50 mutas at a point they threaten us.
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On April 13 2011 16:32 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:28 Gotmog wrote:On April 13 2011 16:21 Aequos wrote:On April 13 2011 16:08 Defacer wrote:
Imagine if Toss whined all day about not having any viable anti-air in the late game, that phoenixes were good in the mid game but too weak and void rays were too frail and slow.
All the Zergs would whisper, "Try building some fucking carriers. They have the highest range and DPS in the game."
And then, instead of trying to find a viable build to get to carriers, the Toss whined about how expensive they are, how they take forever, et cetera et cetera.
The SOTG hosts are right. There are a plethora of unique abilities that the Zerg have that are under-used. Maybe instead of complaining about how difficult it is to actually exploit these abilities, Zerg's should rethink their approach to the game, so they can create situations where they can exploit these abilities.
I actually like this analogy. Toss anti-air is kind of bad, but we work around it by not letting the Zerg get the 50 muta ball it ideally wants by either: 1) 6-gating to kill them if they tried to go muta-ling or 2) Making them spend gas on non-muta units. It's a wrong analogy. Not a single zerg unit is left unexplored. If there is, please make an example. Overlord dropping of hydras, lings and blings hasn't been fully explored. Dropping blings on workers seems like a low cost no brainer with potentially huge payoff, it's like a reaver drop, but it's still pretty much never done. What are people spending their 400apm on?
Hydras haven't been explored ? They have been dropped on clifs like LT, idra has won games with them (they are all in, and must hit before 1st colossus i think), they have been used as harass late game.
Lings/blings drops haven't been used enough ? Really !? even i use them in my games, they are good. And they are used a lot. Blings are used on mineral lines on regular basis. However, they literaly can't harm protoss units when they come to defend.
Nydus hasn't been done so much, but is it rly the only possible answer to P/T A moves (or tank/bunker possitioning) ? That in itself would be pathetic.
I myself have dropped playing zerg, it has became like playing with a handicap, and right now i am enjoying much more stable games. I leave it to pros to keep fixing the race, it's damn to hard to play for low-masters and less. (all i can reliably say).
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On April 13 2011 16:42 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:36 Gotmog wrote:On April 13 2011 15:25 tdt wrote:On April 13 2011 15:04 Mailing wrote:On April 13 2011 15:02 KevinIX wrote:
It's because first it was just Zergs whining about Terrans. And protoss were ok. Then Zergs start whining about Protoss. And Terrans were still pissed at them for whining about Terran. So now both Protoss and Terran are pissed at Zerg. Terran have been nerfed in almost every way since GSL 1, and protoss has gotten a large number of buffs that it did not need in the first place. Not only that, but they fucked the metagame up again with the addition of a ton of new giant maps, after these patches. It's going to take a long time to stabilize again, months. And even then, I don't doubt another balance patch within 30-60 days. I'll agree about larger maps helping toss more and it was supposed to help zerg from rax and gate pushes but with warp gate distance means little. Anyway IdrA should have won game 1 but he failed to continue his roach push after destorying most of MC's army. Can i ask something, have you ever seen a pro zerg, come back from that huge deficit? Zerg is so fragile and week that you can sometimes even die because of a good placed pylon/canon...not to mention other things, if you don't react perfectly. I've seen Nestea defend and come back from deficits many many times in the GSL. Idra would have won if it wasn't for that horrible engagement at the xel'naga tower. Zergs really need to stop with the defeatist attitude. It's ALWAYS about not having a chance or the zerg getting lucky if he wins.
The fact that you think 7 brood lords and hydra beat blink stalkers and storm off a 5 base protoss shows why you don't understand the "defeatist attitude"
IdrA lost the instant he couldn't break MC's 3 base during the first big attack. Any time a protoss hits a full 3 base saturation they win 90% of the time from what I have examined.
My question to him is why he got hydra at all, even he says they are an absolute shit unit that should never be used..
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On April 13 2011 16:42 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:36 Gotmog wrote:On April 13 2011 15:25 tdt wrote:On April 13 2011 15:04 Mailing wrote:On April 13 2011 15:02 KevinIX wrote:
It's because first it was just Zergs whining about Terrans. And protoss were ok. Then Zergs start whining about Protoss. And Terrans were still pissed at them for whining about Terran. So now both Protoss and Terran are pissed at Zerg. Terran have been nerfed in almost every way since GSL 1, and protoss has gotten a large number of buffs that it did not need in the first place. Not only that, but they fucked the metagame up again with the addition of a ton of new giant maps, after these patches. It's going to take a long time to stabilize again, months. And even then, I don't doubt another balance patch within 30-60 days. I'll agree about larger maps helping toss more and it was supposed to help zerg from rax and gate pushes but with warp gate distance means little. Anyway IdrA should have won game 1 but he failed to continue his roach push after destorying most of MC's army. Can i ask something, have you ever seen a pro zerg, come back from that huge deficit? Zerg is so fragile and week that you can sometimes even die because of a good placed pylon/canon...not to mention other things, if you don't react perfectly. I've seen Nestea defend and come back from deficits many many times in the GSL. Idra would have won if it wasn't for that horrible engagement at the xel'naga tower. Zergs really need to stop with the defeatist attitude. It's ALWAYS about not having a chance or the zerg getting lucky if he wins.
Honestly, this defeatist attitude comes from players like Idra. He's also one of the zergs responsible for promoting this idea that zerg needs sit back and mass roaches/corruptors but we've seen aggressive play from July and look how well that can work.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 13 2011 16:39 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:28 Gotmog wrote:On April 13 2011 16:21 Aequos wrote:On April 13 2011 16:08 Defacer wrote:
Imagine if Toss whined all day about not having any viable anti-air in the late game, that phoenixes were good in the mid game but too weak and void rays were too frail and slow.
All the Zergs would whisper, "Try building some fucking carriers. They have the highest range and DPS in the game."
And then, instead of trying to find a viable build to get to carriers, the Toss whined about how expensive they are, how they take forever, et cetera et cetera.
The SOTG hosts are right. There are a plethora of unique abilities that the Zerg have that are under-used. Maybe instead of complaining about how difficult it is to actually exploit these abilities, Zerg's should rethink their approach to the game, so they can create situations where they can exploit these abilities.
I actually like this analogy. Toss anti-air is kind of bad, but we work around it by not letting the Zerg get the 50 muta ball it ideally wants by either: 1) 6-gating to kill them if they tried to go muta-ling or 2) Making them spend gas on non-muta units. It's a wrong analogy. Not a single zerg unit is left unexplored. If there is, please make an example.
[quote]Yet there are plenty of unit combinations still to be explored.
Oh really? Why don't you enlighten us?
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EPT
