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On April 13 2011 16:28 Gotmog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:21 Aequos wrote:On April 13 2011 16:08 Defacer wrote:
Imagine if Toss whined all day about not having any viable anti-air in the late game, that phoenixes were good in the mid game but too weak and void rays were too frail and slow.
All the Zergs would whisper, "Try building some fucking carriers. They have the highest range and DPS in the game."
And then, instead of trying to find a viable build to get to carriers, the Toss whined about how expensive they are, how they take forever, et cetera et cetera.
The SOTG hosts are right. There are a plethora of unique abilities that the Zerg have that are under-used. Maybe instead of complaining about how difficult it is to actually exploit these abilities, Zerg's should rethink their approach to the game, so they can create situations where they can exploit these abilities.
I actually like this analogy. Toss anti-air is kind of bad, but we work around it by not letting the Zerg get the 50 muta ball it ideally wants by either: 1) 6-gating to kill them if they tried to go muta-ling or 2) Making them spend gas on non-muta units. It's a wrong analogy. Not a single zerg unit is left unexplored. If there is, please make an example.
Infestors in general have still not seen much use even after the recent patch. Overseers for contaminate. Hydras in combination with just about anything that increases their mobility: drops, nyduses, creep highways. Overlords in general for drops and creep highways. Queens for offensive play. Nydus worms for both offensive and defensive purposes, instead of only sneak attack in the back of bases.
And that's only units. Then there are different unit combinations, different play styles and all sorts of funky stuff that people have yet to try properly.
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On April 13 2011 16:28 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:00 darkscream wrote:On April 13 2011 15:55 sniverty wrote:
[
well then it's time to ask ourselves why zerg is getting owned by protoss. Maybe zergs need a new kind of playstyle? We know protoss is susceptible to drop harass. Why can't we abandon the whole idea of massing roaches and corruptors and instead engage the enemy indirectly? Even without the colossus, it's pretty damn hard for zerg to engage a protoss army head on, thanks to force fields. Which is why things like hydra/baneling drops, contaminates, nydus networks, aggresive creep spread for map control are all better options than sitting in your base and spamming roaches till maxed. This may feel like the zerg having to massively outplay the toss to win, but what if it becomes the norm? Because when the toss sees you've wasted gas and money on drops and units to drop, they're going to take their death ball and kill your base, and you'll have nothing to stop it. You can't harass someone to death as Zerg. You need to harass but also win army vs army engagements. You can't win massive army vs army engagements, so you must force your opponent to split his army but that's hard. That's why Zerg is in the state its in - you can do all this cool tricky harass with muta/drops/nydus but at the end of the day there's nothing stopping him from a+moving into your main where all your tech is. Can you imagine a situation where a zerg player gets to a+move their army into a Terran or Protoss base? I can't, unless the game was already over. This is one of the main issues zergs have. You're so deep in the imba shit that you can't even see the vulnerabilities of protoss and terran. A good example is IdrA vs MC in Metal at Dreamhack last night. IdrA had the game won with his midgame roach/hydra/ling preassure had he just gone again with the reinforcement roaches, but he backed off, droned up his third and waited for toss to get back up to 170+ food. He overestimated the protoss army when he could've just A+moved into him and won.
He was NEVER in a position to just a-move and win. Go rewatch the game.
Instead of thinking if the matchup is broken, think if Z could be stronger in ZvP without breaking the matchup. IMO Z could be a lot stronger. In a 200/200 battle P should be stronger, but should they be able to kill an entire Z army and only drop 25 food? It's kinda silly, you have to admit.
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On April 13 2011 16:46 Badboyrune wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:28 Gotmog wrote:On April 13 2011 16:21 Aequos wrote:On April 13 2011 16:08 Defacer wrote:
Imagine if Toss whined all day about not having any viable anti-air in the late game, that phoenixes were good in the mid game but too weak and void rays were too frail and slow.
All the Zergs would whisper, "Try building some fucking carriers. They have the highest range and DPS in the game."
And then, instead of trying to find a viable build to get to carriers, the Toss whined about how expensive they are, how they take forever, et cetera et cetera.
The SOTG hosts are right. There are a plethora of unique abilities that the Zerg have that are under-used. Maybe instead of complaining about how difficult it is to actually exploit these abilities, Zerg's should rethink their approach to the game, so they can create situations where they can exploit these abilities.
I actually like this analogy. Toss anti-air is kind of bad, but we work around it by not letting the Zerg get the 50 muta ball it ideally wants by either: 1) 6-gating to kill them if they tried to go muta-ling or 2) Making them spend gas on non-muta units. It's a wrong analogy. Not a single zerg unit is left unexplored. If there is, please make an example. Infestors in general have still not seen much use even after the recent patch. Overseers for contaminate. Hydras in combination with just about anything that increases their mobility: drops, nyduses, creep highways. Overlords in general for drops and creep highways. Queens for offensive play. Nydus worms for both offensive and defensive purposes, instead of only sneak attack in the back of bases. And that's only units. Then there are different unit combinations, different play styles and all sorts of funky stuff that people have yet to try properly.
I have seen all those used, Idra used creep highways for timing atacks with hydra/spines many times. OL are used even in masters for all that...Overseers for mass contaminate were done by Zenio/Spanishiwa.
I already said nydus hasn't .
However, think if you can name this much for both T/P...i swear that Z has been explored evenly or even more them T/P...
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I'm not saying they havent been used, I'm saying they have not been used to the extent where you can even remotely consider them fully explored. There are so many things people are not trying because they're stuck in a mindset of how they think the race is supposed to be played and fail to explore anything to falls outside that category
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creep highway does seem to do a good job sometimes
as for spines, they should be used defensively more often. broodwar players would toss 3-4 at their natural to be safe against early pushes then increased the count slowly over time for the purposes of delaying or discouraging midgame pushes. SC2 zergs rarely make more than 1.
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The big question is really, is it reasonable to demand all this from Z when P just need to sit in base and a-move out? Is that balance?
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I haven't seen the NASL matches yet, am I going to get spoiled if watch this SOTG or the Preshow?
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On April 13 2011 16:45 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:42 karpo wrote:On April 13 2011 16:36 Gotmog wrote:On April 13 2011 15:25 tdt wrote:On April 13 2011 15:04 Mailing wrote:On April 13 2011 15:02 KevinIX wrote:
It's because first it was just Zergs whining about Terrans. And protoss were ok. Then Zergs start whining about Protoss. And Terrans were still pissed at them for whining about Terran. So now both Protoss and Terran are pissed at Zerg. Terran have been nerfed in almost every way since GSL 1, and protoss has gotten a large number of buffs that it did not need in the first place. Not only that, but they fucked the metagame up again with the addition of a ton of new giant maps, after these patches. It's going to take a long time to stabilize again, months. And even then, I don't doubt another balance patch within 30-60 days. I'll agree about larger maps helping toss more and it was supposed to help zerg from rax and gate pushes but with warp gate distance means little. Anyway IdrA should have won game 1 but he failed to continue his roach push after destorying most of MC's army. Can i ask something, have you ever seen a pro zerg, come back from that huge deficit? Zerg is so fragile and week that you can sometimes even die because of a good placed pylon/canon...not to mention other things, if you don't react perfectly. I've seen Nestea defend and come back from deficits many many times in the GSL. Idra would have won if it wasn't for that horrible engagement at the xel'naga tower. Zergs really need to stop with the defeatist attitude. It's ALWAYS about not having a chance or the zerg getting lucky if he wins. The fact that you think 7 brood lords and hydra beat blink stalkers and storm off a 5 base protoss shows why you don't understand the "defeatist attitude" IdrA lost the instant he couldn't break MC's 3 base during the first big attack. Any time a protoss hits a full 3 base saturation they win 90% of the time from what I have examined. My question to him is why he got hydra at all, even he says they are an absolute shit unit that should never be used..
Yeah, IdrA's intentions were right. When a protoss gets to 6 gases, they have the income to support mass colossus/void ray production. But, is a head to head early battle the only way to deny a third? Why do zergs insist on engaging the protoss army head-on when it's abundantly clear that toss has the upper hand with force fields and colossi, even with a smaller army?
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On April 13 2011 16:53 Kylig wrote:
The big question is really, is it reasonable to demand all this from Z when P just need to sit in base and a-move out? Is that balance?
You could ask the same about Broodwar.
Protoss required the lowest APM to play well, and once they massed up a ball it was hard to stop. The key was to defend the early aggression and prevent them from massing up the ball too quickly or at all by denying the 3rd base with pressure and harassment. Not direct army engagement. Also, BW Protoss also had deadly early and mid timing attacks, the Zealot/Archon +1 attack was a strong midgame push that Zerg would delay/defend with tons of sunken colonies.
Spinecrawlers probably need a slight build time reduction, but they should be used more than they are.
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[QUOTE]On April 13 2011 16:46 Biggun69 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +On April 13 2011 16:39 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:28 Gotmog wrote:On April 13 2011 16:21 Aequos wrote:On April 13 2011 16:08 Defacer wrote:
Imagine if Toss whined all day about not having any viable anti-air in the late game, that phoenixes were good in the mid game but too weak and void rays were too frail and slow.
All the Zergs would whisper, "Try building some fucking carriers. They have the highest range and DPS in the game."
And then, instead of trying to find a viable build to get to carriers, the Toss whined about how expensive they are, how they take forever, et cetera et cetera.
The SOTG hosts are right. There are a plethora of unique abilities that the Zerg have that are under-used. Maybe instead of complaining about how difficult it is to actually exploit these abilities, Zerg's should rethink their approach to the game, so they can create situations where they can exploit these abilities.
I actually like this analogy. Toss anti-air is kind of bad, but we work around it by not letting the Zerg get the 50 muta ball it ideally wants by either: 1) 6-gating to kill them if they tried to go muta-ling or 2) Making them spend gas on non-muta units. It's a wrong analogy. Not a single zerg unit is left unexplored. If there is, please make an example.
[quote]Yet there are plenty of unit combinations still to be explored.
Oh really? Why don't you enlighten us?[/QUOTE]
Umm do you really think every Zerg unit combination has been explored?
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It doesn't matter how much harras / cute nydras or drops you do, once a Protoss is maxed there is no way a maxed zerg army can beat a maxed Protoss army.
I believe this is a fundamental balance issue. Zerg needs to rely on their ability to resupply but if a protoss is on 3 - 5 bases with 15 gateways then they can resupply almost just as fast.
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[QUOTE]On April 13 2011 16:56 jmbthirteen wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 13 2011 16:46 Biggun69 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +On April 13 2011 16:39 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:28 Gotmog wrote:On April 13 2011 16:21 Aequos wrote:On April 13 2011 16:08 Defacer wrote:
Imagine if Toss whined all day about not having any viable anti-air in the late game, that phoenixes were good in the mid game but too weak and void rays were too frail and slow.
All the Zergs would whisper, "Try building some fucking carriers. They have the highest range and DPS in the game."
And then, instead of trying to find a viable build to get to carriers, the Toss whined about how expensive they are, how they take forever, et cetera et cetera.
The SOTG hosts are right. There are a plethora of unique abilities that the Zerg have that are under-used. Maybe instead of complaining about how difficult it is to actually exploit these abilities, Zerg's should rethink their approach to the game, so they can create situations where they can exploit these abilities.
I actually like this analogy. Toss anti-air is kind of bad, but we work around it by not letting the Zerg get the 50 muta ball it ideally wants by either: 1) 6-gating to kill them if they tried to go muta-ling or 2) Making them spend gas on non-muta units. It's a wrong analogy. Not a single zerg unit is left unexplored. If there is, please make an example.
[quote]Yet there are plenty of unit combinations still to be explored.
Oh really? Why don't you enlighten us?[/QUOTE]
Umm do you really think every Zerg unit combination has been explored?
[/QUOTE]
What else could there possibly be? Ultralisk drops?
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United States22883 Posts
On April 13 2011 16:36 Gotmog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 15:25 tdt wrote:On April 13 2011 15:04 Mailing wrote:On April 13 2011 15:02 KevinIX wrote:
It's because first it was just Zergs whining about Terrans. And protoss were ok. Then Zergs start whining about Protoss. And Terrans were still pissed at them for whining about Terran. So now both Protoss and Terran are pissed at Zerg. Terran have been nerfed in almost every way since GSL 1, and protoss has gotten a large number of buffs that it did not need in the first place. Not only that, but they fucked the metagame up again with the addition of a ton of new giant maps, after these patches. It's going to take a long time to stabilize again, months. And even then, I don't doubt another balance patch within 30-60 days. I'll agree about larger maps helping toss more and it was supposed to help zerg from rax and gate pushes but with warp gate distance means little. Anyway IdrA should have won game 1 but he failed to continue his roach push after destorying most of MC's army. Can i ask something, have you ever seen a pro zerg, come back from that huge deficit? Zerg is so fragile and week that you can sometimes even die because of a good placed pylon/canon...not to mention other things, if you don't react perfectly.
Nestea vs Makaprime, G2 GSL2. Nestea lost his nat, got bunkered in and was hugely behind. Came back to roll Maka.
On April 13 2011 16:47 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:28 Kyuki wrote:On April 13 2011 16:00 darkscream wrote:On April 13 2011 15:55 sniverty wrote:
[
well then it's time to ask ourselves why zerg is getting owned by protoss. Maybe zergs need a new kind of playstyle? We know protoss is susceptible to drop harass. Why can't we abandon the whole idea of massing roaches and corruptors and instead engage the enemy indirectly? Even without the colossus, it's pretty damn hard for zerg to engage a protoss army head on, thanks to force fields. Which is why things like hydra/baneling drops, contaminates, nydus networks, aggresive creep spread for map control are all better options than sitting in your base and spamming roaches till maxed. This may feel like the zerg having to massively outplay the toss to win, but what if it becomes the norm? Because when the toss sees you've wasted gas and money on drops and units to drop, they're going to take their death ball and kill your base, and you'll have nothing to stop it. You can't harass someone to death as Zerg. You need to harass but also win army vs army engagements. You can't win massive army vs army engagements, so you must force your opponent to split his army but that's hard. That's why Zerg is in the state its in - you can do all this cool tricky harass with muta/drops/nydus but at the end of the day there's nothing stopping him from a+moving into your main where all your tech is. Can you imagine a situation where a zerg player gets to a+move their army into a Terran or Protoss base? I can't, unless the game was already over. This is one of the main issues zergs have. You're so deep in the imba shit that you can't even see the vulnerabilities of protoss and terran. A good example is IdrA vs MC in Metal at Dreamhack last night. IdrA had the game won with his midgame roach/hydra/ling preassure had he just gone again with the reinforcement roaches, but he backed off, droned up his third and waited for toss to get back up to 170+ food. He overestimated the protoss army when he could've just A+moved into him and won. He was NEVER in a position to just a-move and win. Go rewatch the game.
He had an advantageous position at the end.
Broodlord/Hydra/Infestor army should roll through Stalker/Collosus but he made his BLs completely vulnerable, lost them and then the Hydras got melted by Collosi while undefended. The same thing would've happened to MC if he had led with his Collosi.
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On April 13 2011 16:57 Biggun69 wrote:
It doesn't matter how much harras / cute nydras or drops you do, once a Protoss is maxed there is no way a maxed zerg army can beat a maxed Protoss army.
I believe this is a fundamental balance issue. Zerg needs to rely on their ability to resupply but if a protoss is on 3 - 5 bases with 15 gateways then they can resupply almost just as fast.
Well the harass is there to ensure that the protoss does not get to this "unbeatable" army. I don't get it. You guys act as though the harass would've failed miserably and the protoss player can macro up like he would against a passive zerg. The whole point of drops/nydus is to slow down his economy and take advantage of his immobile army.
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[QUOTE]On April 13 2011 16:56 jmbthirteen wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 13 2011 16:46 Biggun69 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +On April 13 2011 16:39 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:28 Gotmog wrote:On April 13 2011 16:21 Aequos wrote:On April 13 2011 16:08 Defacer wrote:
Imagine if Toss whined all day about not having any viable anti-air in the late game, that phoenixes were good in the mid game but too weak and void rays were too frail and slow.
All the Zergs would whisper, "Try building some fucking carriers. They have the highest range and DPS in the game."
And then, instead of trying to find a viable build to get to carriers, the Toss whined about how expensive they are, how they take forever, et cetera et cetera.
The SOTG hosts are right. There are a plethora of unique abilities that the Zerg have that are under-used. Maybe instead of complaining about how difficult it is to actually exploit these abilities, Zerg's should rethink their approach to the game, so they can create situations where they can exploit these abilities.
I actually like this analogy. Toss anti-air is kind of bad, but we work around it by not letting the Zerg get the 50 muta ball it ideally wants by either: 1) 6-gating to kill them if they tried to go muta-ling or 2) Making them spend gas on non-muta units. It's a wrong analogy. Not a single zerg unit is left unexplored. If there is, please make an example.
[quote]Yet there are plenty of unit combinations still to be explored.
Oh really? Why don't you enlighten us?[/QUOTE]
Umm do you really think every Zerg unit combination has been explored?
[/QUOTE]
Zerg was what? 9 fighting units? I don't think there's a whole lot of argument here.... We have tried every possible combination. Right now we don't have answers to certain Protoss armies.
That doesn't mean we can't win ZvP... It just means that eventually there's no way to kill the Protoss army in a heads up fight.
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On April 13 2011 16:57 Biggun69 wrote:
It doesn't matter how much harras / cute nydras or drops you do, once a Protoss is maxed there is no way a maxed zerg army can beat a maxed Protoss army.
I believe this is a fundamental balance issue. Zerg needs to rely on their ability to resupply but if a protoss is on 3 - 5 bases with 15 gateways then they can resupply almost just as fast.
It's not a balance issue that a 200 Protoss army can beat a 200 Zerg army because the Zerg army can be remade faster. Don't let Protoss get to 200. Even if they do, don't let them get to your base. Engage far out with fungals to delay and weaken the army before you do a final engagement. Harass the bases all the time to keep down the probe count. If you do exchange armies, make sure you did harassment of probes simultaneously and engaged far enough out to buy time for the remax. Spinecrawlers also help buy tons of time.
Right after an army exchange is the best time for Overseers to go contaminate robos.
Small groups of fully upgraded zerglings can harass Protoss bases to death. They are pretty good against even Zealots once upgraded and can kill probes and even cannons quite quickly. Just keep spamming them out to force Protoss to keep spending money on defense.
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On April 13 2011 16:53 Kylig wrote:
The big question is really, is it reasonable to demand all this from Z when P just need to sit in base and a-move out? Is that balance?
And yet, when the Protoss deathball does eventually get "solved," whether it is through a metagame revolution or even a balance patch, how will Protoss respond?
Heck, in BW it would be extremely difficult for any race to directly engage a meching Terran. Whereas the Terran could use a lower amount of APM (edit: this wording was probably REALLY bad) to just siege up his tanks and lay down a few mines, it takes a ton of APM from Zerg players to lay down Dark Swarm and engage the Terran death-ball with reasonable losses. Even Protoss players needed a ton of APM to lay down storms, Zealot bombs, and Arbiter stasis to take out entrenched Terran positions.
IMO, when Zerg solves the current Protoss metagame, it will be the Protoss who will be the ones QQing all over the place. Yet, that's how the game works. Certain builds and methods of play become overpowered in the metagame yet eventually get solved over time.
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On April 13 2011 17:03 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:53 Kylig wrote:
The big question is really, is it reasonable to demand all this from Z when P just need to sit in base and a-move out? Is that balance? And yet, when the Protoss deathball does eventually get "solved," whether it is through a metagame revolution or even a balance patch, how will Protoss respond? Heck, in BW it would be extremely difficult for any race to directly engage a meching Terran. Whereas the Terran could use a lower amount of APM to just siege up his tanks and lay down a few mines, it takes a ton of APM from Zerg players to lay down Dark Swarm and engage the Terran death-ball with reasonable losses. Even Protoss players needed a ton of APM to lay down storms, Zealot bombs, and Arbiter stasis to take out entrenched Terran positions. IMO, when Zerg solves the current Protoss metagame, it will be the Protoss who will be the ones QQing all over the place. Yet, that's how the game works. Certain builds and methods of play become overpowered in the metagame yet eventually get solved over time.
Did you even play BW?
Terran was the most APM intensive, mechanically demanding race of the three. Hands down, bar none.
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Yeah I would cry when I offraced as terran in BW, and tried to go SK, 300 zerg APM ->100 Terran APM no bueno. Playing mech style (versus zerg, its different vs toss)was much less apm intense, which is probably what he was hinting at.
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On April 13 2011 16:47 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:28 Kyuki wrote:On April 13 2011 16:00 darkscream wrote:On April 13 2011 15:55 sniverty wrote:
[
well then it's time to ask ourselves why zerg is getting owned by protoss. Maybe zergs need a new kind of playstyle? We know protoss is susceptible to drop harass. Why can't we abandon the whole idea of massing roaches and corruptors and instead engage the enemy indirectly? Even without the colossus, it's pretty damn hard for zerg to engage a protoss army head on, thanks to force fields. Which is why things like hydra/baneling drops, contaminates, nydus networks, aggresive creep spread for map control are all better options than sitting in your base and spamming roaches till maxed. This may feel like the zerg having to massively outplay the toss to win, but what if it becomes the norm? Because when the toss sees you've wasted gas and money on drops and units to drop, they're going to take their death ball and kill your base, and you'll have nothing to stop it. You can't harass someone to death as Zerg. You need to harass but also win army vs army engagements. You can't win massive army vs army engagements, so you must force your opponent to split his army but that's hard. That's why Zerg is in the state its in - you can do all this cool tricky harass with muta/drops/nydus but at the end of the day there's nothing stopping him from a+moving into your main where all your tech is. Can you imagine a situation where a zerg player gets to a+move their army into a Terran or Protoss base? I can't, unless the game was already over. This is one of the main issues zergs have. You're so deep in the imba shit that you can't even see the vulnerabilities of protoss and terran. A good example is IdrA vs MC in Metal at Dreamhack last night. IdrA had the game won with his midgame roach/hydra/ling preassure had he just gone again with the reinforcement roaches, but he backed off, droned up his third and waited for toss to get back up to 170+ food. He overestimated the protoss army when he could've just A+moved into him and won. He was NEVER in a position to just a-move and win. Go rewatch the game. Instead of thinking if the matchup is broken, think if Z could be stronger in ZvP without breaking the matchup. IMO Z could be a lot stronger. In a 200/200 battle P should be stronger, but should they be able to kill an entire Z army and only drop 25 food? It's kinda silly, you have to admit.
To a-move and win IdrA would of had to march 20 / 25 Hydras off creep into MCs natural. Do you know how big a commitment that is? When you take Hydras off creep you are saying if this shit doesn't work, they aren't coming back.
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