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United States22883 Posts
On April 13 2011 14:40 Spicy Pepper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:39 Jibba wrote:
Ok, that was probably my favorite SotG of all time. iNc totally changed my perspective on Nydus, and the BW talk at the end was amazing. <3 Haypro, Spanishwa, DRG (korean zerg) have been doing this for awhie on their streams. I saw DRG do this months ago. SOTG guys act like no zergs have explored this.
It's not actually using Nydus. Limenade uses it all the time too. It's the fact that Nydus creates a threat that has to be responded to, no matter how costly it is to set up, and it thins the opponent's attention and forces. The dropship example from BW is a great parallel. It has to be combined with everything else Zerg players already do right, to make it properly useful in defocusing the enemy.
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On April 13 2011 14:40 SolonTLG wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:27 eviltomahawk wrote:
I can see why everyone cheesed on the short-lived DMZ. It looks terrible!
....
I think it is quite ironic that a Korean Proleague had a map called DMZ, lol! Edit: DMZ = De-militarized Zone, and is the de facto border between North Korean and South Korean
DMZ stands for Demilitarized Zone. It's not ironic. It was called DMZ, because units under disruption web can't attack. All those disruption webs are the demilitarized zones.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
the amount of anger/rage in this thread after each episode makes me seriously wonder why some of you listen to this show... if we annoy you that much stop listening? This isn't some punishment you are forced to endure.
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That was an epic show, very interesting points of views. My respects to Sean, Tyler and Geoff....too bad JP was falling asleep and had to cut off the stream.
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I play zerg at a mid diamond level and I completely agree with what was said on SotG. Whining about ZvP imbalance achieves absolutely nothing, blizzard may never nerf "imba" colossi or buff corruptor damage or whatever. Who cares if protoss has it easier in this MU as long as you're doing your best to improve. Hard work and dedication ALWAYS pays off, you just need the right attitude.
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On April 13 2011 14:41 SpinmovE wrote:
That was an interesting end to the stream. Abruptly cutting off day9 & Tyler is really cool. I'll make sure I have adblock on from now on whenever I watch sotg and don't support you in any way if I can help it.
would you feel better if jp got you a happy meal?
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On April 13 2011 14:40 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:29 WniO wrote:
seriously... having 4 non zergs arguing that zerg is fine is really fucking annoying. i wonder how long the excuse will be that "Well you know, the game is, really young, so i mean you need to realize that things might be discovered, which will help zerg out." 1 year? 2 years? till HotS?
*EVEN IF* zergs units were perfectly balanced against toss/terrans units, it would still be fundamentally imbalanced due to the options t/p has against zerg. for instance,
There are 2 football teams, (american football.) Red and Blue. They both are completely even in all aspects, but team Red only has a third of the playcalls that the Blue team has. Red has to practice defending 3 times the amount of plays that blue has, and they only have a third of the plays that they can choose for offence... obviously blue will win more often than not.
Thats what starcraft 2 is like for zerg! They are team Red!
If you think that that's how fundamentally broken zerg is... Don't play zerg. but make sure that when you play VS zerg, you win EVERY SINGLE GAME, because it'd be a damn shame and embarrassment if you lost to the "red team."
God this is annoying. You're missing the point. Guys like us are amateurs. It does not matter if a race is imbalanced. What matters is the pro level. What is best for spectators of the game is a balanced game. Also, it's not practical for a pro to just switch races, if they feel they're invested too much time into a race and that they trust Blizzard will take steps to better balance the game. If pros do not speak about the imbalance, how is Blizzard to get professional feedback?
Also, I play random.
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And so ends one of my favorite SotGs so far.
I just wish I could have stayed up later into the wee hours of the morning hearing about Brood War.
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Really great show tonight guys, I was so sad when I realized it was going to end!
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Random cut off has upset me. I mean honestly that was a really enjoyable conversation and you just up and end it. I am fairly upset by that jp. I expect better of you to respect the elder gamers. In fact I am a tad critical of your actions. When the duders are talking you let us listen till they are done.
Great show anyway thou ^^
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You know, IdrA's gone from being one of my favorite players to the one I find most disappointing.
I mean, he's a great player, that is passionate about the game. But at the same time, he's a quitter.
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On April 13 2011 14:46 iNcontroL wrote:
the amount of anger/rage in this thread after each episode makes me seriously wonder why some of you listen to this show... if we annoy you that much stop listening? This isn't some punishment you are forced to endure.
Incontrol I love you. And day9, JP, and of course, Tyler. I think I laughed more in this episode than any other.
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On April 13 2011 14:40 Spicy Pepper wrote:
Haypro, Spanishwa, DRG (korean zerg) have been doing this for awhie on their streams. I saw DRG do this months ago. SOTG guys act like no zergs have explored this.
They don't act like that at all, they pointed out people who do in fact experiment with nydus.
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On April 13 2011 14:46 iNcontroL wrote:
the amount of anger/rage in this thread after each episode makes me seriously wonder why some of you listen to this show... if we annoy you that much stop listening? This isn't some punishment you are forced to endure.
Pretty sure 99% of us are jizzing over the awesome BW talk we got.
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Show was too short, I'm not ready to start working yet. Stop making me be productive =(
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I completely agree with Nony about focusing on the game instead of imbalance and starting to work on the huge number of improvements that can still be made in every race's play, but I wish you'd stop talking about Zerg in this extremely superficial way of 'if only Zerg used nyduses more', 'if only they just harassed more'. The Protoss discussion are extremely interesting and detailed, but you don't seem to have the same in-depth knowledge of Zerg's options.
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United States3179 Posts
On April 13 2011 14:29 WniO wrote:
seriously... having 4 non zergs arguing that zerg is fine is really fucking annoying. i wonder how long the excuse will be that "Well you know, the game is, really young, so i mean you need to realize that things might be discovered, which will help zerg out." 1 year? 2 years? till HotS?
*EVEN IF* zergs units were perfectly balanced against toss/terrans units, it would still be fundamentally imbalanced due to the options t/p has against zerg. for instance,
There are 2 football teams, (american football.) Red and Blue. They both are completely even in all aspects, but team Red only has a third of the playcalls that the Blue team has. Red has to practice defending 3 times the amount of plays that blue has, and they only have a third of the plays that they can choose for offence... obviously blue will win more often than not.
Thats what starcraft 2 is like for zerg! They are team Red!
The units are not supposed to be perfectly balanced. It's what makes SC2 so dymanic.
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/game/race/protoss/
Protoss Characteristics
Heavy Hitters
Pound for pound, the protoss field StarCraft II’s strongest and most durable units. That power comes at a price, as their units tend to be costly.
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/game/race/zerg/
Zerg Characteristics
Strength in Numbers
Left unchecked, the zerg multiply at an alarming rate and spawn large armies quickly. Individual zerg units may not be as strong or as hardy as the other races’ forces, but that doesn’t matter when you’re facing an endless stream of them.
That's why they're telling Zerg to explore their options and use strengths and weakness to your advantage and not just give up.
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Wow, this sotg started so trash and ended so beautifully. Amazing episode, I could've listened it for 2 or 3 more hours.
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On April 13 2011 14:43 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:39 Spicy Pepper wrote:On April 13 2011 14:28 Jibba wrote:On April 13 2011 14:23 Spicy Pepper wrote:On April 13 2011 14:17 Zzoram wrote:
Are any top Zerg players actually experimenting with Nydus? By experiment I mean playing a week's worth of games using Nydus every game that goes past 12 minutes. You can't figure out the best use for Nydus without using it a ton in a ton of different scenarios. Someone might stumble upon something good. Of course they are. Just watch some streams. These guys make it sound like all Zergs are some narrow minded players, incapable of thinking up ideas like "hey you know what, maybe I should try other things". No, this concept is beyond all professional zergs, but luckily we have Day9 to suggest hey there's Nyduses. Please get this revelation out to all pro zergs. They were not aware you could use Nyduses in other places on the map besides sneaking it into their opponent's base. You don't need to be facetious. The argument you're making is the exact same that's always been made before a paradigm shift took place. From business to sports to ESPORTS. Zergs are mishandling key components to their game and they have been stubborn, just as Ps used to be and as Z were before that. None of them have said the game is balanced or imbalanced. They've said that players have a lot of room to improve their game. I'm sorry that using sarcasm has touched a nerve, but I'm no more facetious than the SOTG guys. The argument I'm making is just ONE argument. Have some pros zergs on the SOTG podcast that will advocate why zergs aren't imbalanced and what zergs should do. In none of my posts, did I personally argue that zerg is imbalanced. What the SOTG guys have done is strawman the pro zergs' arguments about how zerg is imbalanced, and basically laughed at guys like Idra and Artosis when they came on to argue their points. The simplest way to show how pro zergs are wrong to argue how zerg is imbalanced is to have ONE show with multiple pro zergs that will argue why zerg IS NOT imbalanced. The SotG guys arent' being facetious, I suspect they sincerely believe what they say. You keep asking for a pro Zerg who won't argue that Zerg is imbalanced; we get it, there probably isn't one. These players are saying "who cares?" The great ones make it happen. In BW, there is a reverence for players like Boxer, iloveoov and Savior(erm..) because they changed the game - through micro, macro, build order, mechanics...whatever. Zerg has GREAT players, given the time, they will develop the metagame as well.
If there isn't one, then I think this needs to be vocalized in some manner, so the game can be better balanced.
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Hey JP, come on man. I was really digging what wisdom consummate pros have to share, and hearing them reminisce about very different times was very entertaining and informative since I wasn't a part of it. Seriously man, that was fucking gold. I actually can't describe how robbed I feel now.
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