EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 705
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NoXious90
United Kingdom160 Posts
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WVTKX.jpg) Found this on reddit. | ||
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Mailing
United States3087 Posts
They are starting to prefer unit composition and macro above timing attacks and cheese, partially due to the ever expanding map sizes, and it is actually working out well for them. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
2 or 3 months ago, terrans were dominating zerg with the 2 rax build. Very often zergs were dying right here. Idra and Ret commented on teamliquid that it was unbeatable (=imba). Now, the 2 rax opening is the standard TvZ opening, and no one dies from it anymore. And nothing was patched. (the 2 rax wasn't 2 rax before depot). | ||
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Swarmed
59 Posts
On April 07 2011 07:05 Mailing wrote: The only metagame shift I have seen while watching SC2 for the last 9~ months is that T and P are starting to get better at taking more than 2 bases.. They are starting to prefer unit composition and macro above timing attacks and cheese, partially due to the ever expanding map sizes, and it is actually working out well for them. I'd argue this is a result of the early game tweaks like depot before rax etc. Haven't kept up with all the Toss changes but since many toss seemed to complain they were all nerfs I'm going to assume that might have affected their ability to cheese a little too well? | ||
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Mailing
United States3087 Posts
On April 07 2011 07:07 MrCon wrote: My only post about balance will be this small example. 2 or 3 months ago, terrans were dominating zerg with the 2 rax build. Very often zergs were dying right here. Idra and Ret commented on teamliquid that it was unbeatable (=imba). Now, the 2 rax opening is the standard TvZ opening, and no one dies from it anymore. And nothing was patched. (the 2 rax wasn't 2 rax before depot). Maps were changed, most of the ones like steppes and close position LT were edited. Also, it still works. Terrans just stopped pulling 10 SCV for their attack. Zerg were beating that build because they would build spine crawlers out of fear every game. If you watch idra, july, ret, nestea, etc.. they no longer build that defensive spine, so they very well will probably lose to a 5-6 marine + 10 scv attack if someone tries it on a close ground map. | ||
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Swarmed
59 Posts
On April 07 2011 07:07 MrCon wrote: My only post about balance will be this small example. 2 or 3 months ago, terrans were dominating zerg with the 2 rax build. Very often zergs were dying right here. Idra and Ret commented on teamliquid that it was unbeatable (=imba). Now, the 2 rax opening is the standard TvZ opening, and no one dies from it anymore. And nothing was patched. (the 2 rax wasn't 2 rax before depot). Have you been missing the endless bunker build time tweaks? It's been a running joke every patch lately. Or does that not affect 2 rax? | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On April 07 2011 07:07 MrCon wrote: My only post about balance will be this small example. 2 or 3 months ago, terrans were dominating zerg with the 2 rax build. Very often zergs were dying right here. Idra and Ret commented on teamliquid that it was unbeatable (=imba). Now, the 2 rax opening is the standard TvZ opening, and no one dies from it anymore. And nothing was patched. (the 2 rax wasn't 2 rax before depot). This ^^ Moreover, Idra ended up beating MVP's 2 rax all-in on Steppes of War. | ||
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Swarmed
59 Posts
Ofc it's a lot easier to stop now, duh. | ||
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Sleight
2471 Posts
On April 07 2011 07:05 Mailing wrote: The only metagame shift I have seen while watching SC2 for the last 9~ months is that T and P are starting to get better at taking more than 2 bases.. They are starting to prefer unit composition and macro above timing attacks and cheese, partially due to the ever expanding map sizes, and it is actually working out well for them. Did you play BW? I feel like probably not because that is basically what we saw over the first YEARS of SC. It took forever for people to figure out proper ways to play "aggressive macro" by FEing faster and faster and cutting more and more corners. So far we've condensed years of BW evolution into 9-10 months and gameplay is still changing. I think that there is plenty of room left for all races to improve upon current gameplay. Drewbie pioneered a style a while back where he literally never built anything but Marines and Marauders vs P. No one professional had ever not teched like that. It got him to 2nd place in the first tournament he ever tried but he dropped it cause SeleCT's build was obviously better at that time. 5rax Reaper? That came out of nowhere. VR Colossi? That was a new trick to put them together. Double forge openings? I mean P and T have been working hard to innovate because of how structured their early games can be without any real disruption. Z has a more fluid early game and makes rigid BOs not-useful, so a lot of the gameplay is harder to refine. Like, i dunno, Brood War. Zerg has a completely different paradigm than the other two races and yet people expect innovation and ease of play like 2 races that more logically follow established RTS patterns. Zerg has some work to do in terms of grinding out new ideas and figuring out how to make them viable but that doesn't make them underpowered. I was a 150 apm Zerg in BW. I never could make it past D. My buddy was a 60 apm Protoss. He made it to C one season when he really refined his build. *Shrug* Each race has it's own challenges. Just means the game demands dedication. | ||
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imareaver3
United States906 Posts
On April 07 2011 07:07 MrCon wrote: My only post about balance will be this small example. 2 or 3 months ago, terrans were dominating zerg with the 2 rax build. Very often zergs were dying right here. Idra and Ret commented on teamliquid that it was unbeatable (=imba). Now, the 2 rax opening is the standard TvZ opening, and no one dies from it anymore. And nothing was patched. (the 2 rax wasn't 2 rax before depot). Bunkers build 5 seconds slower, and you can't bunker-wall the ramps on tournament maps anymore. Also, maps are way larger now; 2-rax and marine/SCV all-ins are still overpowered on Steppes of War, but of course that map's been removed for balance reasons. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On April 07 2011 07:05 Mailing wrote: The only metagame shift I have seen while watching SC2 for the last 9~ months is that T and P are starting to get better at taking more than 2 bases.. They are starting to prefer unit composition and macro above timing attacks and cheese, partially due to the ever expanding map sizes, and it is actually working out well for them. Mech TvZ was stopped by Mutaling. The siege tank patch didn't come out until the end of September. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
For Zerg, in SC2? The evolution of Zerg play in SC2 has mostly been "how do I not die to X, Y and Z?". The other races have seen much more variety in their play (IMO), and that's because their design allows for more different stuff. It is not a balance thing, but I think Z is less likely than the other races to overcome problems in a matchup. | ||
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SCbiff
110 Posts
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Nakas
United States148 Posts
On April 07 2011 07:07 MrCon wrote: My only post about balance will be this small example. 2 or 3 months ago, terrans were dominating zerg with the 2 rax build. Very often zergs were dying right here. Idra and Ret commented on teamliquid that it was unbeatable (=imba). Now, the 2 rax opening is the standard TvZ opening, and no one dies from it anymore. And nothing was patched. (the 2 rax wasn't 2 rax before depot). Do you have a link to this post? I was under the impression that Idra and Ret sat down and figured out the 14-hatch defense to 2-rax (which many people mistakenly considered to be greedy). I do remember Idra saying that it was not possible to reach an even midgame vs. 5-rax reaper, but that subsequently received a nerf that has been more or less universally regarded as justified. | ||
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imareaver3
United States906 Posts
On April 07 2011 07:16 Jibba wrote: Mech TvZ was stopped by Mutaling. The siege tank patch didn't come out until the end of September. There was a nerf in beta patch 15, released in May. Pretty significant one, too.  Siege Tank | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On April 07 2011 07:21 Nakas wrote: Do you have a link to this post? I was under the impression that Idra and Ret sat down and figured out the 14-hatch defense to 2-rax (which many people mistakenly considered to be greedy). I do remember Idra saying that it was not possible to reach an even midgame vs. 5-rax reaper, but that subsequently received a nerf that has been more or less universally regarded as justified. The Ret post I remember was in the GSL live report thread of the day he got eliminated. Don't have the link, but it should be easily findable. | ||
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dapierow
Serbia1316 Posts
On April 07 2011 07:13 Talin wrote: This ^^ Moreover, Idra ended up beating MVP's 2 rax all-in on Steppes of War. and yet a game lost to TLO's two rax at MLG, and Morrowd dropped a game in tsl to jinro because the 2 rax set him so far behind so whats that about "NO ONE dies from it anymore" | ||
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GeorgeForeman
United States1746 Posts
Look at the use of marauders today vs. in 2010, especially vs. zerg. Protoss air openings have come in and out of style and now they're back in again. Infestors were seeing heavier use even before the fungal change. Protoss started out going colossi every damn game vs. terran, then HTs became the norm. It would've stayed that way if the last patch hadn't come out. Drop ship play is far less prevalent than it was at release, especially in TvZ. Now, terrans tend to bunker up and go for heavy marine/tank builds. And if you think players have figured out how to play the large GSL maps past the mid-game, you're fooling yourself. The game is evolving. It'll keep evolving as the two expansions come out. For people to sit back and complain about balance when there are still lots of unexplored paths in the game is lazy. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On April 07 2011 07:22 imareaver3 wrote: It wasn't significant, because the number of shots to kill was still the same, except with hydras. And the Mech domination continued in phase 2, after patch 15 was released.There was a nerf in beta patch 15, released in May. Pretty significant one, too. Siege TankEDIT: I'm misremembering, I think it was the second siege tank patch that changed the number of hits to kill a hydra, but that's irrelevant. That first patch didn't change it at all. | ||
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