On May 26 2006 09:26 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Np, Gokai
Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:19 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:17 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Eh, testie will just tell you everyone whines too much and say the game is balanced - he's been asked before ;o
And I agree.
Trying to be macho and tough doesn't cancel out the facts. People seem to go too much on
truthiness with this issue and not enough on truth.
Oh yes, very macho, me no fear zerg - ugha bugah, hit zerg with heavvvvvvvvy club, zealot rush keke.
I just don't see the imbalance that you see, that's all. I see a problem with maps mostly.. If there is an imbalance I don't think it's big enough to pay any attention to, just need less imbalanced maps.
There's a lot less protoss players in korea than there are terrans or zergs (zerg = traditionally korean race I believe, terrans because of boxer) so there's a slightly smaller talent pool, then we have the fact that PvZ takes a lot longer to learn as unlike PvT, it's a matchup where you need experience (ie in PvT you have the complete picture because of your observers, in PvZ you need to be able to read the game a lot more).
This also makes it more stressful, harder to learn and easier to fuck up I guess, I don't think it makes it imbalanced tho. There could be changes made, I suppose, that didn't fuck up the balance but nothing major.
Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:23 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:19 gokai wrote:On May 26 2006 09:12 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:09 gokai wrote:
Yeah, your probably right. Statistics is good way to look at the "big picture". But statistics is such a limited view on Starcraft, as a game and a sport. I'm curious, gravity, to know your skill level and years of experience. No one can a form a complete opinion on starcraft if they don't play it seriously.
I don't play much any more (I find the game too intenese/stressful these days
) and was never very good. But my lack of skill doesn't magically make Protoss win starleagues or have an even chance against Z. You don't need to be good at SC to see the facts.
Draco and Mondragon aren't very good compared to Ra and Saviour either, but that doesn't seem to stop you wanting their anecdotal opinion.
Can Ra and Savior speak english? As a serious gamer, I want anecdotal opinion to improve my own skill. I'm sorry but if you don't play seriously, your opinion is limited to adcademic analysis.
Errr, so what? I mean, I can understand if you want the details of good player's opinions to help your game, but their opinion on the fact of whether the game is balanced or not is irrelevant in the face of the evidence. "Academic analysis" is the only way to actually *know*, rather than just "having a feeling", the latter hardly being a good basis to decide policy (of map choice or patching or whatever) on.
I wouldn't suggest you ask me the details of playing PvZ well but when it comes to the question of whether it's balanced at pro level, the fact that I've look at the numbers at all makes me more qualified to say than someone who is going solely on gut feeling, no matter how well they play.
I guess the numbers I provided you with in the OSL Live report thread weren't good enough for you? Maybe I should repost it here:
This is directed mostly at Gravity and partly at SP)diQ
Garimto 3-0 Skelton winning OGN Freechal starleague. - Dunno maps (2-0 PvZ, 1-0 PvP). I think the first map was Avant Garde, 3rd - pvp game, was neo blaze.
Garimto > Yellow 2-1 on his way to OGN SKY 2001 1st place - Vertigo L , Silent Vortex W, Incubus W
Short summary of the games: Game 1 was an attempted hardcore zealot rush which failed (5 vs 1), and he died to the counter mass lings. Game 2 I can't remember, game 3 I can't remember (or well, I'm not sure if I'm remembering him vs Zerglee or him vs Yellow).
Reach > Yellow 3-2 on his way to OGN SKY 2002 1st place (Gaema Gowon, vertigo, neo bifrost (I think it was Neo at least), neo forbidden zone (I think it was neo), gaema gowon - not sure about the order except gaema gowon was used twice)
Short summary: Game 1 reach goes 1 gate -> sair -> mass range goons and wins, on forbidden zone he won a fairly typical island game I think, on bifrost he attempted to cannon cliff I think, but it failed so he died 10 minutes later, vertigo game was a really close game which ended in sair/dt vs plague/lings, but I can't remember their openings, but fairly standard as I recall. Game 5 was reach opening 1 gate -> sair -> expo with templar and zealots, Yellow going attempting to lurker cliff him and then contain, reach defended everything with perfect storms, moved out with zealot/templar + a few goons and crushed yellow's army in the center.
Nal_rA > JJu 3-1 on his way to OGN Hangame 1st place - Paradoxxx II W, neo guillotine W, Nostalgia L, namja W - Didn't see these games.
Kingdom > Junwi (used to have a 70% win ratio ZvP) 3-0 on his way to mm, it aws Mycube 2003 that he won right? - Guillotine, Sin Gaema Gowon, Paradoxxx
Summary - Well, Gaema gowon game was 2 gate-> contain at ramp with zealots -> get zealot speed -> win. Didn't watch the rest.
Grrr > H.O.T 3-2 (I'm not sure what the matchups were, but Grrr randomed terran in the last game to win, I think the rest might have been PvZ, but again, not sure) winning OGN Hanaro starleague.
Didn't watch (or I might have.. but I can't remember them well enough, also not sure if it's the right grrr vs hot games).
He later beat TheBoy 3-2 (0-2 TvZ ZvZ 3-0 PvZ) to win the first King of Kings.
Didn't watch.
Reach 3-2 Chojja (then 1-3 IPXZerg in the final) in the losers final of MBC Uzoo starleague.
I think the maps were Requiem, Luna, Rush Hour and uhhhhhhhhh, can't remember the last map.
Only watched parts of this, but the game on rush hour was a 1 hour long epic struggle which ended with both players mostly broke (distance mining) and reach managing to maelstrom about 30 devourers and then storming all for the win). The game on Requiem was a zealot rush game I believe.
Back in MBC Spris starleague, Eros~Rage beat Julyzerg 2-1 (also beat Chojja 1-0, rA knocked him into losers bracket then knocked him out completely).
Didn't watch these.
MBC Stout starleague nal_ra won, but I'm not sure if he played any zerg in a BO3 ;<
Now I'm not gonna count only starleague games/games where the player went on to win a starleague.
BO3+s Ps have lost:
Nal_rA vs JJu 1-2 OGN SinHan 2006 1 - Game 1 = attempted 1+ zealot rush but got counter attacked and lost to lurkers, game 2 = proxy gate win, game 3 = fast expo into 2 stargate corsair + dt drop, kinda close game but lost.
Reach vs July 1-3 OGN Gillette 2003 finals - Nostalgia W, Mercury L, Namja iyagi L and requiem L , only watched the game on nostalgia where reach did a 1 gate -> scout -> dt -> expo -> macro thing and won, caught glimpses of the game on namja where he went sair reaver and lost to mass muta+queens and devourers I think.
Reach vs IPXZerg 1-3 MBC Uzoo 2005 finals - only watched parts of the game on Luna, longish and (I think) closeish game, but horrible lag made it hard to watch. Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0
Reach vs Mumyung 1-2 (in MBC I think) - Ride of Valkyrie W, Dark Sauron II L, R-point L - these games were all zealot/templar/dragoon vs hydra/lurker/ling, except in the r-point game where reach went with a more zealot/archon oriented force not knowing mumyung had made like 20 lurkers
Hm.. I'm missing tons here obviously.. (missed quite a few PvZ wins too)
Nal_rA vs Yellow from WCG qualifications in 2002.. Hm.. The maps were Legacy of Char and Jungle story I think? Or was it BO1 and only legacy of char?
Reach vs Yellow from Blizzcon (1-2) and did he lose again in World Wide Invitational? I don't remember what maps they played (I think uh.. nightlight and king of the abyss and uh signal?)
Reach vs Junwi - 2-3 In the.. OGN Mycube 3rd place game I think! (nostalgia, guillotine, paradoxxx, gaema gowon, nostalgia, all I remember is reach lost the last game on nostalgia which was a 50 minute, or so, battle).
Pusan vs July 0-3 (ride of valkyries, cultivation period, rush hour 2) in the Shinhan Bank OSL (2005-2006)
Chojja vs Stork 2-0 in the Pringles MSL on 815 and Cultivation period.
If anyone knows who/by what score rA lost to julyzerg and yellow in the Snickers Allstars please fill me in~ I think he lost either 1-3 or 1-2 to yellow?
A couple of wins I forgot in my earlier post:
Kingdom vs JJu 2-0 in some MBC Starleague, I only remember 1 of the games was on Luna and really good.
Reach vs Yellow 3-2 - Ever 2004 3rd place game, Mercury L, Pelennor L, requiem W, bifrost III W, mercury W - Game 1 I can't remember well, except reach lost, game 2 was either on pelennor or requiem, on pelennor he lost a kinda close game consisting of lurker ling vs zealot templar, on requiem he won but I can't remember how, on bifrost he miraculously won but I don't remember how exactly, on mercury in the final game he won because he stormed beautifully and maybe yellow fucked up a bit too (hey, mercury is like top 3 worst pvz map ever so you need some luck).
Foru vs Julyzerg 2-0 - WCG qualifiers - Azalea and dunno (I think those were the maps at least)
Reach vs Mondragon 2-1 - Blizzcon (I think it's kind of fair to count this, mondragon's ZvsP is pro-level) .. Hm, Signal, Road to Antiga Prime, Nightlight, possibly reverse order.
Nal_rA vs Mondragon 2-0 - Blizzcon - Signal and Nightlight, not sure about the order.
Nal_rA 2-1 IPXZerg in some all-star thing
I guess mentioning Foru's and Reach's wins vs Sen would be stretching it : >
I can't remember all the countless bo3s in challenge league/survivor, but I know that zergs mostly win those (there's a looooooooooooot more zerg players too, which has to be kept in mind).
Ah, I'm almost certain Nal_rA beat July 2-1 in MBC once, but I can't remember which one. Or maybe it was Kingdom who did, either one o_O
Show nested quote +
Uhm.. In how many of those games zerg went lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling >_<
and btw, in ALL of these series (- reach/chojja and reach/yellow) at least 1 island map was present.
Uh, the ONLY zerg who does lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling these days is IPXZerg and sometimes chojja..?
In summary:
Starleagues won/top 3 finishes:
Terran:
Boxer 3 (OGN 2, MBC 1), 2nd places 4 (OGN 4), 3rd place 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1)
Oov 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd places 2 (OGN 2)
Nada 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 2nd places 3 (MBC 3), 3rd places 1 (MBC 1)
Sync 1 (OGN 1)
Xellos 1 (OGN 1), 3rd places 2 (MBC 1, OGN 1)
Silent_Control 3rd places 1 (OGN 1)
Protoss:
Nal_rA 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (OGN) 3rd place 1 (MBC)
Reach 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 3 (MBC 2, OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1)
Garimto 2 (OGN 2)
Grrr 1 (OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1)
Anytime 1 (OGN 1)
Kingdom 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1)
Pusan 3rd places 1 (OGN 1)
Zeus 2nd place 1 (OGN)
Zerg:
July 2 (OGN 2), 2nd places 2 (OGN 2)
Gorush 1 (MBC 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1)
IPXZerg 1 (MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1)
Yellow 2nd place 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd place 2 (OGN 2)
Junwi 3rd place 1
Chojja 1 (MBC 1), 2nd places 2 (OGN 1 MBC 1)
The zerg list ends here (forgot about some recent wins :D)
WCG Winners:
Terran:
Boxer 2 (2001, 2002)
Xellos 1 (2004)
Elky 2nd place 1 (2001)
Midas 2nd place 1 (2004)
Androide 2nd place 1 (2005)
Zerg:
Gorush 1 (2000, technically this wasn't wcg but WCGC - world cyber games challenge, but I think it counts as it was basically just wcg with a different name)
Ogogo 1 (2003)
Yellow 2nd place 1 (2002)
I.love.star 2nd place 1 (2000)
Protoss:
ForU 1 (2005)
Fisheye (2003)
GhemTV:
Terran:
Nada 1
Oddysay 1
Protoss:
Grrr 2nd place 1 (losing to oddysay)
Zerg:
H.O.T 2nd place 1 (Losing to nada, at least I think so).
KT-KTF Premiere League:
Terran:
Nada 1 (winning the first one)
Boxer 2nd place 1 (runner up of the first one)
Zerg:
Julyzerg 1 (winning the second)
Gorush 2nd place 1 (runner up of the second)
Then there were those mini-KT-KTF tournaments which nal_ra won 3/4 I think, but maybe they are too small to count :D
And I don't know who won the ITV leagues.. I think oov might have won one and july runner up? Or reversed? Or was that like a semi-final?
Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 06:20 OctoPuSs wrote:
FA
The map in the MSL savior won were : Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0
Thx.
Thx also to hasuprotoss.
And if anyone has the results for all the differnet King of Kings tournaments feel free to mention those, I know Mumyung beat Yellow 3-0 in one :D And Yellow beat gundam 3-0 in one I think? And he also beat boxer 3-1 in one.
So in conclusion - Yeah, toss is going through a rough patch with the removal of two of their best maps in a long time - Neo Forte and R-point, as well as the removal of Luna and Requiem (especially requiem).
Yeah, Nal_rA just got back from a long slump and reach 'just' entered one, but no, your initial statement (which is what started all of this) was this:
Show nested quote +
It's imbalanced enough that Protoss never wins Starleague if they have to play any BO3s or higher against Z. I'd say that's indeed "as imbalanced as I was making it out to be". By the way, I'm sure I'm just as mature and educated as you imply yourself to be, if not moreso.
I proved COMPLETELY 100% false.
I will say this tho - I do think PvsZ is hard, I do not feel confident about my favourite winning when they play vs a Zerg, and well, despite my being worse at it, I do feel more comfortable playing a terran.
However, when I look at things rationally, I don't think PvZ is imbalanced, if I look at the stats of (for instance) nal_ra who was on a what, 10 game winning streak vs zerg?
I know he didn't lose because of an imbalance (you gonna say BoxeR lost cause TvZ is imbalanced? they were both on 10~ game winning streaks vs zerg), I know that statistically I'm better at PvZ but that PvT is less stressful so that's why I prefer it if it's something important...
ETC.
Hard to explain I guess.
EPT
