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On April 07 2011 03:34 Alderan wrote:
Has anyone brought up the fact that Day[9]'s immediate future rides on this game bearing the perception as balanced. The fans of any RTS that is not BW know first hand that for a game to be really really successful it HAS to be balanced, or at least perceived as balanced.
So if balance=esports surviving and esports=day9 making a living then Day9 REALLY wants it to appear balanced, even if it's not.
Like I said, dogma to keep the peace.
You can make an argument that talking about imbalance doesn't help. You can just as well make the argument that being in denial about imbalance actually impairs people's understanding of the game. It just so happens that being in denial is more convenient for Day9's prospects as a caster and community figure.
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On April 07 2011 03:50 Treehead wrote:
The progamers' immediate future dies if SC2 dies as an e-sport also. This doesn't seem to stop Idra.
Because IdrA wants the game to succeed as an Esport through the community and eventually Blizzard coming to an understanding and working towards a solid foundation for the game balance wise, whereas Day[9] wants the game to succeed as an Esport by pretending that there is basically no such thing as imbalance because Zergs need to nydus/infestor/drop (pick your pleasure) more.
Thing is TL has banned so much because of "zerg whine" that really you get this distorted perception of reality where the "community" (as molded by TL mods) does not believe there is imbalance or has an extremely PC position on it in order to keep posting. It's pretty easy to accomplish when you just remove the people who disagree, lol.
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"they got thoroughly touched all day"
lmao sean, great to have you back :D
edit: also no time stamp?
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On April 07 2011 04:15 Swarmed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 03:50 Treehead wrote:
The progamers' immediate future dies if SC2 dies as an e-sport also. This doesn't seem to stop Idra. Because IdrA wants the game to succeed as an Esport through the community and eventually Blizzard coming to an understanding and working towards a solid foundation for the game balance wise, whereas Day[9] wants the game to succeed as an Esport by pretending that there is basically no such thing as imbalance because Zergs need to nydus/infestor/drop (pick your pleasure) more. Thing is TL has banned so much because of "zerg whine" that really you get this distorted perception of reality where the "community" (as molded by TL mods) does not believe there is imbalance or has an extremely PC position on it in order to keep posting. It's pretty easy to accomplish when you just remove the people who disagree, lol.
Day9 has said in the past that Blizzard is notorious for caring and that if there is an imbalance, they'll fix it. This is his stated stance. He decries balance discussion because its corrossive to a player's mentality and counterproductive in general. I don't think he said they'll fix it immediately, but he said they'll fix it.
TL hasn't banned balance whining (that's why almost every thread ends up derailed by it), though your implication that the TL mods are involved in Day9's anti-zerg coverup conspiracy is fascinating. What of it, TL mods? Are you involved in the Zerggate coverup scandal?
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On April 07 2011 03:49 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 03:19 Uhnno wrote:Simply put, there are way too many panel regulars who are Protoss and zerg players love when there is finally a zerg panel member on there who can speak for them. Its frustrating to see a zerg get shut down and dismissed as well even after they might bring up good points. IdrA does have a self-defeatist attitude, but that doesn't also mean that his points were incorrect. You can't make it a point to discuss balance on SotG but then when it comes to zerg discussion with a zerg, you just shut him down and troll him by telling him to go mass infestor.
Talking balance as a whole is quite irrelevant. For one because it promotes flaming and whining. Second they can't do much about it. And if unless all alternatives are actually being explored, it's moot to go deep into that issue. Players have to play with the cards that are dealt. I for one don't think all options are actually being tested in ZvP. But if IdrA gives up and thinks the MU is unwinnable, new radical strategies won't be discovered. i said before mlg the game is broken and then at it i played hydra allins, burrow move roach rushes, hydra roach drops, ling bane, roach into ling bane drops, had multiple games with 5+ infestors running around with both neural and fungal. end game armies of ling bane infestor broodlord corruptor. and those are the things i decided were good enough to try in a tournament. i dont understand how people say commenting on balance prevents you from experimenting. youd have to be retarded to think people whos livelihood depends on winning games arent trying to figure things out. but we've been trying since the second phase of the beta and nothing fucking works.
I sincerely doubt that things don't work. I'd say ling/bling/infestor/BL worked quite well and is quite different than the usual hydra/roach/corruptor mix. Even the Metal game with the hallucination shenanigans, the game was clearly closer from an observer point of view. Changes styles like these is what makes the game grow as a whole.
Even disregarding that game and about balance, another one important reason is that most people don't really know what they are talking about. And even if the people do know what they are talking about, it often derails into massive flame/rage fests. It's like sorting through the massive amounts of whine, to find a few quality and genuine good points, before it get's burrowed under massive amounts of nonsense again. Bias plays a huge role in this matter because it narrows the potential developments.
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On April 07 2011 03:34 Alderan wrote:
Has anyone brought up the fact that Day[9]'s immediate future rides on this game bearing the perception as balanced. The fans of any RTS that is not BW know first hand that for a game to be really really successful it HAS to be balanced, or at least perceived as balanced.
So if balance=esports surviving and esports=day9 making a living then Day9 REALLY wants it to appear balanced, even if it's not.
Flame suit on!
You know he wrote that thesis just so that he could spend his life drinking away his sorrows if Esports were to fail.
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On April 07 2011 03:19 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +Back in the day of 5rax reaper, when it was obvious to just about everyone even top Terran players, he was still arguing that Zerg hadn't "figured it out yet". Yeah, and Day 9 was right. Zerg figured it out. Fast roaches.
That's some good revisionist history right there, Reapers got nerfed and Roaches got buffed. Before that 5-rax Reapers would force mass Roach, but still kite them like hell and not take much damage after which T could transition into mass Marauder and just roll over all the Roaches.
TvZ _was_ broken and Zergs didn't figure it out, it got patched.
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oh wow i was watching ep 32, man am i behind. was wondering why they werent mentioning dallas much lmao
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United States22883 Posts
On April 07 2011 04:15 Swarmed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 03:50 Treehead wrote:
The progamers' immediate future dies if SC2 dies as an e-sport also. This doesn't seem to stop Idra. Because IdrA wants the game to succeed as an Esport through the community and eventually Blizzard coming to an understanding and working towards a solid foundation for the game balance wise, whereas Day[9] wants the game to succeed as an Esport by pretending that there is basically no such thing as imbalance because Zergs need to nydus/infestor/drop (pick your pleasure) more. Thing is TL has banned so much because of "zerg whine" that really you get this distorted perception of reality where the "community" (as molded by TL mods) does not believe there is imbalance or has an extremely PC position on it in order to keep posting. It's pretty easy to accomplish when you just remove the people who disagree, lol.
+ Show Spoiler [Monster FA post] +On May 26 2006 09:26 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Np, Gokai  Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:19 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:17 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Eh, testie will just tell you everyone whines too much and say the game is balanced - he's been asked before ;o
And I agree. Trying to be macho and tough doesn't cancel out the facts. People seem to go too much on truthiness with this issue and not enough on truth. Oh yes, very macho, me no fear zerg - ugha bugah, hit zerg with heavvvvvvvvy club, zealot rush keke. I just don't see the imbalance that you see, that's all. I see a problem with maps mostly.. If there is an imbalance I don't think it's big enough to pay any attention to, just need less imbalanced maps. There's a lot less protoss players in korea than there are terrans or zergs (zerg = traditionally korean race I believe, terrans because of boxer) so there's a slightly smaller talent pool, then we have the fact that PvZ takes a lot longer to learn as unlike PvT, it's a matchup where you need experience (ie in PvT you have the complete picture because of your observers, in PvZ you need to be able to read the game a lot more). This also makes it more stressful, harder to learn and easier to fuck up I guess, I don't think it makes it imbalanced tho. There could be changes made, I suppose, that didn't fuck up the balance but nothing major. Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:23 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:19 gokai wrote:On May 26 2006 09:12 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:09 gokai wrote:
Yeah, your probably right. Statistics is good way to look at the "big picture". But statistics is such a limited view on Starcraft, as a game and a sport. I'm curious, gravity, to know your skill level and years of experience. No one can a form a complete opinion on starcraft if they don't play it seriously. I don't play much any more (I find the game too intenese/stressful these days  ) and was never very good. But my lack of skill doesn't magically make Protoss win starleagues or have an even chance against Z. You don't need to be good at SC to see the facts. Draco and Mondragon aren't very good compared to Ra and Saviour either, but that doesn't seem to stop you wanting their anecdotal opinion. Can Ra and Savior speak english? As a serious gamer, I want anecdotal opinion to improve my own skill. I'm sorry but if you don't play seriously, your opinion is limited to adcademic analysis. Errr, so what? I mean, I can understand if you want the details of good player's opinions to help your game, but their opinion on the fact of whether the game is balanced or not is irrelevant in the face of the evidence. "Academic analysis" is the only way to actually *know*, rather than just "having a feeling", the latter hardly being a good basis to decide policy (of map choice or patching or whatever) on. I wouldn't suggest you ask me the details of playing PvZ well but when it comes to the question of whether it's balanced at pro level, the fact that I've look at the numbers at all makes me more qualified to say than someone who is going solely on gut feeling, no matter how well they play. I guess the numbers I provided you with in the OSL Live report thread weren't good enough for you? Maybe I should repost it here: This is directed mostly at Gravity and partly at SP)diQ Garimto 3-0 Skelton winning OGN Freechal starleague. - Dunno maps (2-0 PvZ, 1-0 PvP). I think the first map was Avant Garde, 3rd - pvp game, was neo blaze. Garimto > Yellow 2-1 on his way to OGN SKY 2001 1st place - Vertigo L , Silent Vortex W, Incubus W Short summary of the games: Game 1 was an attempted hardcore zealot rush which failed (5 vs 1), and he died to the counter mass lings. Game 2 I can't remember, game 3 I can't remember (or well, I'm not sure if I'm remembering him vs Zerglee or him vs Yellow). Reach > Yellow 3-2 on his way to OGN SKY 2002 1st place (Gaema Gowon, vertigo, neo bifrost (I think it was Neo at least), neo forbidden zone (I think it was neo), gaema gowon - not sure about the order except gaema gowon was used twice) Short summary: Game 1 reach goes 1 gate -> sair -> mass range goons and wins, on forbidden zone he won a fairly typical island game I think, on bifrost he attempted to cannon cliff I think, but it failed so he died 10 minutes later, vertigo game was a really close game which ended in sair/dt vs plague/lings, but I can't remember their openings, but fairly standard as I recall. Game 5 was reach opening 1 gate -> sair -> expo with templar and zealots, Yellow going attempting to lurker cliff him and then contain, reach defended everything with perfect storms, moved out with zealot/templar + a few goons and crushed yellow's army in the center. Nal_rA > JJu 3-1 on his way to OGN Hangame 1st place - Paradoxxx II W, neo guillotine W, Nostalgia L, namja W - Didn't see these games. Kingdom > Junwi (used to have a 70% win ratio ZvP) 3-0 on his way to mm, it aws Mycube 2003 that he won right? - Guillotine, Sin Gaema Gowon, Paradoxxx Summary - Well, Gaema gowon game was 2 gate-> contain at ramp with zealots -> get zealot speed -> win. Didn't watch the rest. Grrr > H.O.T 3-2 (I'm not sure what the matchups were, but Grrr randomed terran in the last game to win, I think the rest might have been PvZ, but again, not sure) winning OGN Hanaro starleague. Didn't watch (or I might have.. but I can't remember them well enough, also not sure if it's the right grrr vs hot games). He later beat TheBoy 3-2 (0-2 TvZ ZvZ 3-0 PvZ) to win the first King of Kings. Didn't watch. Reach 3-2 Chojja (then 1-3 IPXZerg in the final) in the losers final of MBC Uzoo starleague. I think the maps were Requiem, Luna, Rush Hour and uhhhhhhhhh, can't remember the last map. Only watched parts of this, but the game on rush hour was a 1 hour long epic struggle which ended with both players mostly broke (distance mining) and reach managing to maelstrom about 30 devourers and then storming all for the win). The game on Requiem was a zealot rush game I believe. Back in MBC Spris starleague, Eros~Rage beat Julyzerg 2-1 (also beat Chojja 1-0, rA knocked him into losers bracket then knocked him out completely). Didn't watch these. MBC Stout starleague nal_ra won, but I'm not sure if he played any zerg in a BO3 ;< Now I'm not gonna count only starleague games/games where the player went on to win a starleague. BO3+s Ps have lost: Nal_rA vs JJu 1-2 OGN SinHan 2006 1 - Game 1 = attempted 1+ zealot rush but got counter attacked and lost to lurkers, game 2 = proxy gate win, game 3 = fast expo into 2 stargate corsair + dt drop, kinda close game but lost. Reach vs July 1-3 OGN Gillette 2003 finals - Nostalgia W, Mercury L, Namja iyagi L and requiem L , only watched the game on nostalgia where reach did a 1 gate -> scout -> dt -> expo -> macro thing and won, caught glimpses of the game on namja where he went sair reaver and lost to mass muta+queens and devourers I think. Reach vs IPXZerg 1-3 MBC Uzoo 2005 finals - only watched parts of the game on Luna, longish and (I think) closeish game, but horrible lag made it hard to watch. Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Reach vs Mumyung 1-2 (in MBC I think) - Ride of Valkyrie W, Dark Sauron II L, R-point L - these games were all zealot/templar/dragoon vs hydra/lurker/ling, except in the r-point game where reach went with a more zealot/archon oriented force not knowing mumyung had made like 20 lurkers  Hm.. I'm missing tons here obviously.. (missed quite a few PvZ wins too) Nal_rA vs Yellow from WCG qualifications in 2002.. Hm.. The maps were Legacy of Char and Jungle story I think? Or was it BO1 and only legacy of char? Reach vs Yellow from Blizzcon (1-2) and did he lose again in World Wide Invitational? I don't remember what maps they played (I think uh.. nightlight and king of the abyss and uh signal?) Reach vs Junwi - 2-3 In the.. OGN Mycube 3rd place game I think! (nostalgia, guillotine, paradoxxx, gaema gowon, nostalgia, all I remember is reach lost the last game on nostalgia which was a 50 minute, or so, battle). Pusan vs July 0-3 (ride of valkyries, cultivation period, rush hour 2) in the Shinhan Bank OSL (2005-2006) Chojja vs Stork 2-0 in the Pringles MSL on 815 and Cultivation period. If anyone knows who/by what score rA lost to julyzerg and yellow in the Snickers Allstars please fill me in~ I think he lost either 1-3 or 1-2 to yellow? A couple of wins I forgot in my earlier post: Kingdom vs JJu 2-0 in some MBC Starleague, I only remember 1 of the games was on Luna and really good. Reach vs Yellow 3-2 - Ever 2004 3rd place game, Mercury L, Pelennor L, requiem W, bifrost III W, mercury W - Game 1 I can't remember well, except reach lost, game 2 was either on pelennor or requiem, on pelennor he lost a kinda close game consisting of lurker ling vs zealot templar, on requiem he won but I can't remember how, on bifrost he miraculously won but I don't remember how exactly, on mercury in the final game he won because he stormed beautifully and maybe yellow fucked up a bit too (hey, mercury is like top 3 worst pvz map ever so you need some luck). Foru vs Julyzerg 2-0 - WCG qualifiers - Azalea and dunno (I think those were the maps at least) Reach vs Mondragon 2-1 - Blizzcon (I think it's kind of fair to count this, mondragon's ZvsP is pro-level) .. Hm, Signal, Road to Antiga Prime, Nightlight, possibly reverse order. Nal_rA vs Mondragon 2-0 - Blizzcon - Signal and Nightlight, not sure about the order. Nal_rA 2-1 IPXZerg in some all-star thing I guess mentioning Foru's and Reach's wins vs Sen would be stretching it : > I can't remember all the countless bo3s in challenge league/survivor, but I know that zergs mostly win those (there's a looooooooooooot more zerg players too, which has to be kept in mind). Ah, I'm almost certain Nal_rA beat July 2-1 in MBC once, but I can't remember which one. Or maybe it was Kingdom who did, either one o_O Show nested quote +
Uhm.. In how many of those games zerg went lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling >_<
and btw, in ALL of these series (- reach/chojja and reach/yellow) at least 1 island map was present.
Uh, the ONLY zerg who does lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling these days is IPXZerg and sometimes chojja..? In summary: Starleagues won/top 3 finishes: Terran: Boxer 3 (OGN 2, MBC 1), 2nd places 4 (OGN 4), 3rd place 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1) Oov 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd places 2 (OGN 2) Nada 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 2nd places 3 (MBC 3), 3rd places 1 (MBC 1) Sync 1 (OGN 1) Xellos 1 (OGN 1), 3rd places 2 (MBC 1, OGN 1) Silent_Control 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Protoss: Nal_rA 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (OGN) 3rd place 1 (MBC) Reach 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 3 (MBC 2, OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Garimto 2 (OGN 2) Grrr 1 (OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Anytime 1 (OGN 1) Kingdom 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Pusan 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Zeus 2nd place 1 (OGN) Zerg: July 2 (OGN 2), 2nd places 2 (OGN 2) Gorush 1 (MBC 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) IPXZerg 1 (MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Yellow 2nd place 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd place 2 (OGN 2) Junwi 3rd place 1 Chojja 1 (MBC 1), 2nd places 2 (OGN 1 MBC 1) The zerg list ends here (forgot about some recent wins :D) WCG Winners: Terran: Boxer 2 (2001, 2002) Xellos 1 (2004) Elky 2nd place 1 (2001) Midas 2nd place 1 (2004) Androide 2nd place 1 (2005) Zerg: Gorush 1 (2000, technically this wasn't wcg but WCGC - world cyber games challenge, but I think it counts as it was basically just wcg with a different name) Ogogo 1 (2003) Yellow 2nd place 1 (2002) I.love.star 2nd place 1 (2000) Protoss: ForU 1 (2005) Fisheye (2003) GhemTV: Terran: Nada 1 Oddysay 1 Protoss: Grrr 2nd place 1 (losing to oddysay) Zerg: H.O.T 2nd place 1 (Losing to nada, at least I think so). KT-KTF Premiere League: Terran: Nada 1 (winning the first one) Boxer 2nd place 1 (runner up of the first one) Zerg: Julyzerg 1 (winning the second) Gorush 2nd place 1 (runner up of the second) Then there were those mini-KT-KTF tournaments which nal_ra won 3/4 I think, but maybe they are too small to count :D And I don't know who won the ITV leagues.. I think oov might have won one and july runner up? Or reversed? Or was that like a semi-final? Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 06:20 OctoPuSs wrote:
FA
The map in the MSL savior won were : Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Thx. Thx also to hasuprotoss. And if anyone has the results for all the differnet King of Kings tournaments feel free to mention those, I know Mumyung beat Yellow 3-0 in one :D And Yellow beat gundam 3-0 in one I think? And he also beat boxer 3-1 in one. So in conclusion - Yeah, toss is going through a rough patch with the removal of two of their best maps in a long time - Neo Forte and R-point, as well as the removal of Luna and Requiem (especially requiem). Yeah, Nal_rA just got back from a long slump and reach 'just' entered one, but no, your initial statement (which is what started all of this) was this: Show nested quote +
It's imbalanced enough that Protoss never wins Starleague if they have to play any BO3s or higher against Z. I'd say that's indeed "as imbalanced as I was making it out to be". By the way, I'm sure I'm just as mature and educated as you imply yourself to be, if not moreso.
I proved COMPLETELY 100% false. I will say this tho - I do think PvsZ is hard, I do not feel confident about my favourite winning when they play vs a Zerg, and well, despite my being worse at it, I do feel more comfortable playing a terran. However, when I look at things rationally, I don't think PvZ is imbalanced, if I look at the stats of (for instance) nal_ra who was on a what, 10 game winning streak vs zerg? I know he didn't lose because of an imbalance (you gonna say BoxeR lost cause TvZ is imbalanced? they were both on 10~ game winning streaks vs zerg), I know that statistically I'm better at PvZ but that PvT is less stressful so that's why I prefer it if it's something important... ETC. Hard to explain I guess.
That's from 2006, when up to a year prior Protosses were complaining about PvZ and how it was the most difficult match up in the game. Some (including some TL mods) even said it was imbalanced. Then GOM MSL 1 happened and all Zergs came to hate the bisu build.
That's why we don't immediately project our first thoughts on balance, like your average WoW player. We're all ignorant. You can't complain about Hilbert's Problems when you can barely do subtraction.
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On April 07 2011 04:36 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 04:15 Swarmed wrote:On April 07 2011 03:50 Treehead wrote:
The progamers' immediate future dies if SC2 dies as an e-sport also. This doesn't seem to stop Idra. Because IdrA wants the game to succeed as an Esport through the community and eventually Blizzard coming to an understanding and working towards a solid foundation for the game balance wise, whereas Day[9] wants the game to succeed as an Esport by pretending that there is basically no such thing as imbalance because Zergs need to nydus/infestor/drop (pick your pleasure) more. Thing is TL has banned so much because of "zerg whine" that really you get this distorted perception of reality where the "community" (as molded by TL mods) does not believe there is imbalance or has an extremely PC position on it in order to keep posting. It's pretty easy to accomplish when you just remove the people who disagree, lol. + Show Spoiler [Monster FA post] +On May 26 2006 09:26 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Np, Gokai Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:19 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:17 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Eh, testie will just tell you everyone whines too much and say the game is balanced - he's been asked before ;o
And I agree. Trying to be macho and tough doesn't cancel out the facts. People seem to go too much on truthiness with this issue and not enough on truth. Oh yes, very macho, me no fear zerg - ugha bugah, hit zerg with heavvvvvvvvy club, zealot rush keke. I just don't see the imbalance that you see, that's all. I see a problem with maps mostly.. If there is an imbalance I don't think it's big enough to pay any attention to, just need less imbalanced maps. There's a lot less protoss players in korea than there are terrans or zergs (zerg = traditionally korean race I believe, terrans because of boxer) so there's a slightly smaller talent pool, then we have the fact that PvZ takes a lot longer to learn as unlike PvT, it's a matchup where you need experience (ie in PvT you have the complete picture because of your observers, in PvZ you need to be able to read the game a lot more). This also makes it more stressful, harder to learn and easier to fuck up I guess, I don't think it makes it imbalanced tho. There could be changes made, I suppose, that didn't fuck up the balance but nothing major. Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:23 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:19 gokai wrote:On May 26 2006 09:12 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:09 gokai wrote:
Yeah, your probably right. Statistics is good way to look at the "big picture". But statistics is such a limited view on Starcraft, as a game and a sport. I'm curious, gravity, to know your skill level and years of experience. No one can a form a complete opinion on starcraft if they don't play it seriously. I don't play much any more (I find the game too intenese/stressful these days ) and was never very good. But my lack of skill doesn't magically make Protoss win starleagues or have an even chance against Z. You don't need to be good at SC to see the facts. Draco and Mondragon aren't very good compared to Ra and Saviour either, but that doesn't seem to stop you wanting their anecdotal opinion. Can Ra and Savior speak english? As a serious gamer, I want anecdotal opinion to improve my own skill. I'm sorry but if you don't play seriously, your opinion is limited to adcademic analysis. Errr, so what? I mean, I can understand if you want the details of good player's opinions to help your game, but their opinion on the fact of whether the game is balanced or not is irrelevant in the face of the evidence. "Academic analysis" is the only way to actually *know*, rather than just "having a feeling", the latter hardly being a good basis to decide policy (of map choice or patching or whatever) on. I wouldn't suggest you ask me the details of playing PvZ well but when it comes to the question of whether it's balanced at pro level, the fact that I've look at the numbers at all makes me more qualified to say than someone who is going solely on gut feeling, no matter how well they play. I guess the numbers I provided you with in the OSL Live report thread weren't good enough for you? Maybe I should repost it here: This is directed mostly at Gravity and partly at SP)diQ Garimto 3-0 Skelton winning OGN Freechal starleague. - Dunno maps (2-0 PvZ, 1-0 PvP). I think the first map was Avant Garde, 3rd - pvp game, was neo blaze. Garimto > Yellow 2-1 on his way to OGN SKY 2001 1st place - Vertigo L , Silent Vortex W, Incubus W Short summary of the games: Game 1 was an attempted hardcore zealot rush which failed (5 vs 1), and he died to the counter mass lings. Game 2 I can't remember, game 3 I can't remember (or well, I'm not sure if I'm remembering him vs Zerglee or him vs Yellow). Reach > Yellow 3-2 on his way to OGN SKY 2002 1st place (Gaema Gowon, vertigo, neo bifrost (I think it was Neo at least), neo forbidden zone (I think it was neo), gaema gowon - not sure about the order except gaema gowon was used twice) Short summary: Game 1 reach goes 1 gate -> sair -> mass range goons and wins, on forbidden zone he won a fairly typical island game I think, on bifrost he attempted to cannon cliff I think, but it failed so he died 10 minutes later, vertigo game was a really close game which ended in sair/dt vs plague/lings, but I can't remember their openings, but fairly standard as I recall. Game 5 was reach opening 1 gate -> sair -> expo with templar and zealots, Yellow going attempting to lurker cliff him and then contain, reach defended everything with perfect storms, moved out with zealot/templar + a few goons and crushed yellow's army in the center. Nal_rA > JJu 3-1 on his way to OGN Hangame 1st place - Paradoxxx II W, neo guillotine W, Nostalgia L, namja W - Didn't see these games. Kingdom > Junwi (used to have a 70% win ratio ZvP) 3-0 on his way to mm, it aws Mycube 2003 that he won right? - Guillotine, Sin Gaema Gowon, Paradoxxx Summary - Well, Gaema gowon game was 2 gate-> contain at ramp with zealots -> get zealot speed -> win. Didn't watch the rest. Grrr > H.O.T 3-2 (I'm not sure what the matchups were, but Grrr randomed terran in the last game to win, I think the rest might have been PvZ, but again, not sure) winning OGN Hanaro starleague. Didn't watch (or I might have.. but I can't remember them well enough, also not sure if it's the right grrr vs hot games). He later beat TheBoy 3-2 (0-2 TvZ ZvZ 3-0 PvZ) to win the first King of Kings. Didn't watch. Reach 3-2 Chojja (then 1-3 IPXZerg in the final) in the losers final of MBC Uzoo starleague. I think the maps were Requiem, Luna, Rush Hour and uhhhhhhhhh, can't remember the last map. Only watched parts of this, but the game on rush hour was a 1 hour long epic struggle which ended with both players mostly broke (distance mining) and reach managing to maelstrom about 30 devourers and then storming all for the win). The game on Requiem was a zealot rush game I believe. Back in MBC Spris starleague, Eros~Rage beat Julyzerg 2-1 (also beat Chojja 1-0, rA knocked him into losers bracket then knocked him out completely). Didn't watch these. MBC Stout starleague nal_ra won, but I'm not sure if he played any zerg in a BO3 ;< Now I'm not gonna count only starleague games/games where the player went on to win a starleague. BO3+s Ps have lost: Nal_rA vs JJu 1-2 OGN SinHan 2006 1 - Game 1 = attempted 1+ zealot rush but got counter attacked and lost to lurkers, game 2 = proxy gate win, game 3 = fast expo into 2 stargate corsair + dt drop, kinda close game but lost. Reach vs July 1-3 OGN Gillette 2003 finals - Nostalgia W, Mercury L, Namja iyagi L and requiem L , only watched the game on nostalgia where reach did a 1 gate -> scout -> dt -> expo -> macro thing and won, caught glimpses of the game on namja where he went sair reaver and lost to mass muta+queens and devourers I think. Reach vs IPXZerg 1-3 MBC Uzoo 2005 finals - only watched parts of the game on Luna, longish and (I think) closeish game, but horrible lag made it hard to watch. Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Reach vs Mumyung 1-2 (in MBC I think) - Ride of Valkyrie W, Dark Sauron II L, R-point L - these games were all zealot/templar/dragoon vs hydra/lurker/ling, except in the r-point game where reach went with a more zealot/archon oriented force not knowing mumyung had made like 20 lurkers Hm.. I'm missing tons here obviously.. (missed quite a few PvZ wins too) Nal_rA vs Yellow from WCG qualifications in 2002.. Hm.. The maps were Legacy of Char and Jungle story I think? Or was it BO1 and only legacy of char? Reach vs Yellow from Blizzcon (1-2) and did he lose again in World Wide Invitational? I don't remember what maps they played (I think uh.. nightlight and king of the abyss and uh signal?) Reach vs Junwi - 2-3 In the.. OGN Mycube 3rd place game I think! (nostalgia, guillotine, paradoxxx, gaema gowon, nostalgia, all I remember is reach lost the last game on nostalgia which was a 50 minute, or so, battle). Pusan vs July 0-3 (ride of valkyries, cultivation period, rush hour 2) in the Shinhan Bank OSL (2005-2006) Chojja vs Stork 2-0 in the Pringles MSL on 815 and Cultivation period. If anyone knows who/by what score rA lost to julyzerg and yellow in the Snickers Allstars please fill me in~ I think he lost either 1-3 or 1-2 to yellow? A couple of wins I forgot in my earlier post: Kingdom vs JJu 2-0 in some MBC Starleague, I only remember 1 of the games was on Luna and really good. Reach vs Yellow 3-2 - Ever 2004 3rd place game, Mercury L, Pelennor L, requiem W, bifrost III W, mercury W - Game 1 I can't remember well, except reach lost, game 2 was either on pelennor or requiem, on pelennor he lost a kinda close game consisting of lurker ling vs zealot templar, on requiem he won but I can't remember how, on bifrost he miraculously won but I don't remember how exactly, on mercury in the final game he won because he stormed beautifully and maybe yellow fucked up a bit too (hey, mercury is like top 3 worst pvz map ever so you need some luck). Foru vs Julyzerg 2-0 - WCG qualifiers - Azalea and dunno (I think those were the maps at least) Reach vs Mondragon 2-1 - Blizzcon (I think it's kind of fair to count this, mondragon's ZvsP is pro-level) .. Hm, Signal, Road to Antiga Prime, Nightlight, possibly reverse order. Nal_rA vs Mondragon 2-0 - Blizzcon - Signal and Nightlight, not sure about the order. Nal_rA 2-1 IPXZerg in some all-star thing I guess mentioning Foru's and Reach's wins vs Sen would be stretching it : > I can't remember all the countless bo3s in challenge league/survivor, but I know that zergs mostly win those (there's a looooooooooooot more zerg players too, which has to be kept in mind). Ah, I'm almost certain Nal_rA beat July 2-1 in MBC once, but I can't remember which one. Or maybe it was Kingdom who did, either one o_O Show nested quote +
Uhm.. In how many of those games zerg went lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling >_<
and btw, in ALL of these series (- reach/chojja and reach/yellow) at least 1 island map was present.
Uh, the ONLY zerg who does lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling these days is IPXZerg and sometimes chojja..? In summary: Starleagues won/top 3 finishes: Terran: Boxer 3 (OGN 2, MBC 1), 2nd places 4 (OGN 4), 3rd place 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1) Oov 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd places 2 (OGN 2) Nada 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 2nd places 3 (MBC 3), 3rd places 1 (MBC 1) Sync 1 (OGN 1) Xellos 1 (OGN 1), 3rd places 2 (MBC 1, OGN 1) Silent_Control 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Protoss: Nal_rA 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (OGN) 3rd place 1 (MBC) Reach 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 3 (MBC 2, OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Garimto 2 (OGN 2) Grrr 1 (OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Anytime 1 (OGN 1) Kingdom 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Pusan 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Zeus 2nd place 1 (OGN) Zerg: July 2 (OGN 2), 2nd places 2 (OGN 2) Gorush 1 (MBC 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) IPXZerg 1 (MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Yellow 2nd place 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd place 2 (OGN 2) Junwi 3rd place 1 Chojja 1 (MBC 1), 2nd places 2 (OGN 1 MBC 1) The zerg list ends here (forgot about some recent wins :D) WCG Winners: Terran: Boxer 2 (2001, 2002) Xellos 1 (2004) Elky 2nd place 1 (2001) Midas 2nd place 1 (2004) Androide 2nd place 1 (2005) Zerg: Gorush 1 (2000, technically this wasn't wcg but WCGC - world cyber games challenge, but I think it counts as it was basically just wcg with a different name) Ogogo 1 (2003) Yellow 2nd place 1 (2002) I.love.star 2nd place 1 (2000) Protoss: ForU 1 (2005) Fisheye (2003) GhemTV: Terran: Nada 1 Oddysay 1 Protoss: Grrr 2nd place 1 (losing to oddysay) Zerg: H.O.T 2nd place 1 (Losing to nada, at least I think so). KT-KTF Premiere League: Terran: Nada 1 (winning the first one) Boxer 2nd place 1 (runner up of the first one) Zerg: Julyzerg 1 (winning the second) Gorush 2nd place 1 (runner up of the second) Then there were those mini-KT-KTF tournaments which nal_ra won 3/4 I think, but maybe they are too small to count :D And I don't know who won the ITV leagues.. I think oov might have won one and july runner up? Or reversed? Or was that like a semi-final? Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 06:20 OctoPuSs wrote:
FA
The map in the MSL savior won were : Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Thx. Thx also to hasuprotoss. And if anyone has the results for all the differnet King of Kings tournaments feel free to mention those, I know Mumyung beat Yellow 3-0 in one :D And Yellow beat gundam 3-0 in one I think? And he also beat boxer 3-1 in one. So in conclusion - Yeah, toss is going through a rough patch with the removal of two of their best maps in a long time - Neo Forte and R-point, as well as the removal of Luna and Requiem (especially requiem). Yeah, Nal_rA just got back from a long slump and reach 'just' entered one, but no, your initial statement (which is what started all of this) was this: Show nested quote +
It's imbalanced enough that Protoss never wins Starleague if they have to play any BO3s or higher against Z. I'd say that's indeed "as imbalanced as I was making it out to be". By the way, I'm sure I'm just as mature and educated as you imply yourself to be, if not moreso.
I proved COMPLETELY 100% false. I will say this tho - I do think PvsZ is hard, I do not feel confident about my favourite winning when they play vs a Zerg, and well, despite my being worse at it, I do feel more comfortable playing a terran. However, when I look at things rationally, I don't think PvZ is imbalanced, if I look at the stats of (for instance) nal_ra who was on a what, 10 game winning streak vs zerg? I know he didn't lose because of an imbalance (you gonna say BoxeR lost cause TvZ is imbalanced? they were both on 10~ game winning streaks vs zerg), I know that statistically I'm better at PvZ but that PvT is less stressful so that's why I prefer it if it's something important... ETC. Hard to explain I guess. That's from 2006, when up to a year prior Protosses were complaining about PvZ and how it was the most difficult match up in the game. Some (including some TL mods) even said it was imbalanced. Then GOM MSL 1 happened and all Zergs came to hate the bisu build.That's why we don't immediately project our first thoughts on balance, like your average WoW player. We're all ignorant. You can't complain about Hilbert's Problems when you can barely do subtraction.
Completely and utterly agree, I think that if any imbalance does exist the game has not been out long to really find it. Of course there were some obviously broken things like the reaper, that needed to be dealt with. But we're here now, and the primary issue I see with Zergs complaining about balance is a complete and utter refusal to try anything different. If Roach/Hydra/Corruptor cannot beat the death ball, then why in the name of all things good and holy do you continue to use it? If I was using Mass Zealot to fight roaches I'd look a bit silly no? Try new things, odd unit comps, if you think you're going to lose anyway then what's the harm trying something new?
I've been trying new unit comps in match ups lately and I've been having a complete blast. Try something different, at the very least you might have more fun.
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@Jibba
I'm tempted to agree with you, but Zerg did just come out of a round of serious problems in ZvT, which ended with the roach range buff.
Now we're talking about ZvP, with the extreme vulnerability to warpgate pressure early on if you don't want to put yourself behind econ-wise and the inefficiency lategame as well as inability to really benefit from great macro play because it quickly ties up your supply with drones. Zerg only being able to benefit from their race's strengths in the late-mid to early lategame.
Too early you're too weak to do real damage without all-ins, too late you're screwed because you're inefficient and you need a large chunk of your supply to keep the econ advantage which makes you fall behind in army supply.
At what point would you stop and consider that maybe there is just a problem with Zerg design and it does in fact need help in some way shape or form?
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On April 07 2011 04:36 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 04:15 Swarmed wrote:On April 07 2011 03:50 Treehead wrote:
The progamers' immediate future dies if SC2 dies as an e-sport also. This doesn't seem to stop Idra. Because IdrA wants the game to succeed as an Esport through the community and eventually Blizzard coming to an understanding and working towards a solid foundation for the game balance wise, whereas Day[9] wants the game to succeed as an Esport by pretending that there is basically no such thing as imbalance because Zergs need to nydus/infestor/drop (pick your pleasure) more. Thing is TL has banned so much because of "zerg whine" that really you get this distorted perception of reality where the "community" (as molded by TL mods) does not believe there is imbalance or has an extremely PC position on it in order to keep posting. It's pretty easy to accomplish when you just remove the people who disagree, lol. + Show Spoiler [Monster FA post] +On May 26 2006 09:26 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Np, Gokai Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:19 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:17 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Eh, testie will just tell you everyone whines too much and say the game is balanced - he's been asked before ;o
And I agree. Trying to be macho and tough doesn't cancel out the facts. People seem to go too much on truthiness with this issue and not enough on truth. Oh yes, very macho, me no fear zerg - ugha bugah, hit zerg with heavvvvvvvvy club, zealot rush keke. I just don't see the imbalance that you see, that's all. I see a problem with maps mostly.. If there is an imbalance I don't think it's big enough to pay any attention to, just need less imbalanced maps. There's a lot less protoss players in korea than there are terrans or zergs (zerg = traditionally korean race I believe, terrans because of boxer) so there's a slightly smaller talent pool, then we have the fact that PvZ takes a lot longer to learn as unlike PvT, it's a matchup where you need experience (ie in PvT you have the complete picture because of your observers, in PvZ you need to be able to read the game a lot more). This also makes it more stressful, harder to learn and easier to fuck up I guess, I don't think it makes it imbalanced tho. There could be changes made, I suppose, that didn't fuck up the balance but nothing major. Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:23 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:19 gokai wrote:On May 26 2006 09:12 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:09 gokai wrote:
Yeah, your probably right. Statistics is good way to look at the "big picture". But statistics is such a limited view on Starcraft, as a game and a sport. I'm curious, gravity, to know your skill level and years of experience. No one can a form a complete opinion on starcraft if they don't play it seriously. I don't play much any more (I find the game too intenese/stressful these days ) and was never very good. But my lack of skill doesn't magically make Protoss win starleagues or have an even chance against Z. You don't need to be good at SC to see the facts. Draco and Mondragon aren't very good compared to Ra and Saviour either, but that doesn't seem to stop you wanting their anecdotal opinion. Can Ra and Savior speak english? As a serious gamer, I want anecdotal opinion to improve my own skill. I'm sorry but if you don't play seriously, your opinion is limited to adcademic analysis. Errr, so what? I mean, I can understand if you want the details of good player's opinions to help your game, but their opinion on the fact of whether the game is balanced or not is irrelevant in the face of the evidence. "Academic analysis" is the only way to actually *know*, rather than just "having a feeling", the latter hardly being a good basis to decide policy (of map choice or patching or whatever) on. I wouldn't suggest you ask me the details of playing PvZ well but when it comes to the question of whether it's balanced at pro level, the fact that I've look at the numbers at all makes me more qualified to say than someone who is going solely on gut feeling, no matter how well they play. I guess the numbers I provided you with in the OSL Live report thread weren't good enough for you? Maybe I should repost it here: This is directed mostly at Gravity and partly at SP)diQ Garimto 3-0 Skelton winning OGN Freechal starleague. - Dunno maps (2-0 PvZ, 1-0 PvP). I think the first map was Avant Garde, 3rd - pvp game, was neo blaze. Garimto > Yellow 2-1 on his way to OGN SKY 2001 1st place - Vertigo L , Silent Vortex W, Incubus W Short summary of the games: Game 1 was an attempted hardcore zealot rush which failed (5 vs 1), and he died to the counter mass lings. Game 2 I can't remember, game 3 I can't remember (or well, I'm not sure if I'm remembering him vs Zerglee or him vs Yellow). Reach > Yellow 3-2 on his way to OGN SKY 2002 1st place (Gaema Gowon, vertigo, neo bifrost (I think it was Neo at least), neo forbidden zone (I think it was neo), gaema gowon - not sure about the order except gaema gowon was used twice) Short summary: Game 1 reach goes 1 gate -> sair -> mass range goons and wins, on forbidden zone he won a fairly typical island game I think, on bifrost he attempted to cannon cliff I think, but it failed so he died 10 minutes later, vertigo game was a really close game which ended in sair/dt vs plague/lings, but I can't remember their openings, but fairly standard as I recall. Game 5 was reach opening 1 gate -> sair -> expo with templar and zealots, Yellow going attempting to lurker cliff him and then contain, reach defended everything with perfect storms, moved out with zealot/templar + a few goons and crushed yellow's army in the center. Nal_rA > JJu 3-1 on his way to OGN Hangame 1st place - Paradoxxx II W, neo guillotine W, Nostalgia L, namja W - Didn't see these games. Kingdom > Junwi (used to have a 70% win ratio ZvP) 3-0 on his way to mm, it aws Mycube 2003 that he won right? - Guillotine, Sin Gaema Gowon, Paradoxxx Summary - Well, Gaema gowon game was 2 gate-> contain at ramp with zealots -> get zealot speed -> win. Didn't watch the rest. Grrr > H.O.T 3-2 (I'm not sure what the matchups were, but Grrr randomed terran in the last game to win, I think the rest might have been PvZ, but again, not sure) winning OGN Hanaro starleague. Didn't watch (or I might have.. but I can't remember them well enough, also not sure if it's the right grrr vs hot games). He later beat TheBoy 3-2 (0-2 TvZ ZvZ 3-0 PvZ) to win the first King of Kings. Didn't watch. Reach 3-2 Chojja (then 1-3 IPXZerg in the final) in the losers final of MBC Uzoo starleague. I think the maps were Requiem, Luna, Rush Hour and uhhhhhhhhh, can't remember the last map. Only watched parts of this, but the game on rush hour was a 1 hour long epic struggle which ended with both players mostly broke (distance mining) and reach managing to maelstrom about 30 devourers and then storming all for the win). The game on Requiem was a zealot rush game I believe. Back in MBC Spris starleague, Eros~Rage beat Julyzerg 2-1 (also beat Chojja 1-0, rA knocked him into losers bracket then knocked him out completely). Didn't watch these. MBC Stout starleague nal_ra won, but I'm not sure if he played any zerg in a BO3 ;< Now I'm not gonna count only starleague games/games where the player went on to win a starleague. BO3+s Ps have lost: Nal_rA vs JJu 1-2 OGN SinHan 2006 1 - Game 1 = attempted 1+ zealot rush but got counter attacked and lost to lurkers, game 2 = proxy gate win, game 3 = fast expo into 2 stargate corsair + dt drop, kinda close game but lost. Reach vs July 1-3 OGN Gillette 2003 finals - Nostalgia W, Mercury L, Namja iyagi L and requiem L , only watched the game on nostalgia where reach did a 1 gate -> scout -> dt -> expo -> macro thing and won, caught glimpses of the game on namja where he went sair reaver and lost to mass muta+queens and devourers I think. Reach vs IPXZerg 1-3 MBC Uzoo 2005 finals - only watched parts of the game on Luna, longish and (I think) closeish game, but horrible lag made it hard to watch. Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Reach vs Mumyung 1-2 (in MBC I think) - Ride of Valkyrie W, Dark Sauron II L, R-point L - these games were all zealot/templar/dragoon vs hydra/lurker/ling, except in the r-point game where reach went with a more zealot/archon oriented force not knowing mumyung had made like 20 lurkers Hm.. I'm missing tons here obviously.. (missed quite a few PvZ wins too) Nal_rA vs Yellow from WCG qualifications in 2002.. Hm.. The maps were Legacy of Char and Jungle story I think? Or was it BO1 and only legacy of char? Reach vs Yellow from Blizzcon (1-2) and did he lose again in World Wide Invitational? I don't remember what maps they played (I think uh.. nightlight and king of the abyss and uh signal?) Reach vs Junwi - 2-3 In the.. OGN Mycube 3rd place game I think! (nostalgia, guillotine, paradoxxx, gaema gowon, nostalgia, all I remember is reach lost the last game on nostalgia which was a 50 minute, or so, battle). Pusan vs July 0-3 (ride of valkyries, cultivation period, rush hour 2) in the Shinhan Bank OSL (2005-2006) Chojja vs Stork 2-0 in the Pringles MSL on 815 and Cultivation period. If anyone knows who/by what score rA lost to julyzerg and yellow in the Snickers Allstars please fill me in~ I think he lost either 1-3 or 1-2 to yellow? A couple of wins I forgot in my earlier post: Kingdom vs JJu 2-0 in some MBC Starleague, I only remember 1 of the games was on Luna and really good. Reach vs Yellow 3-2 - Ever 2004 3rd place game, Mercury L, Pelennor L, requiem W, bifrost III W, mercury W - Game 1 I can't remember well, except reach lost, game 2 was either on pelennor or requiem, on pelennor he lost a kinda close game consisting of lurker ling vs zealot templar, on requiem he won but I can't remember how, on bifrost he miraculously won but I don't remember how exactly, on mercury in the final game he won because he stormed beautifully and maybe yellow fucked up a bit too (hey, mercury is like top 3 worst pvz map ever so you need some luck). Foru vs Julyzerg 2-0 - WCG qualifiers - Azalea and dunno (I think those were the maps at least) Reach vs Mondragon 2-1 - Blizzcon (I think it's kind of fair to count this, mondragon's ZvsP is pro-level) .. Hm, Signal, Road to Antiga Prime, Nightlight, possibly reverse order. Nal_rA vs Mondragon 2-0 - Blizzcon - Signal and Nightlight, not sure about the order. Nal_rA 2-1 IPXZerg in some all-star thing I guess mentioning Foru's and Reach's wins vs Sen would be stretching it : > I can't remember all the countless bo3s in challenge league/survivor, but I know that zergs mostly win those (there's a looooooooooooot more zerg players too, which has to be kept in mind). Ah, I'm almost certain Nal_rA beat July 2-1 in MBC once, but I can't remember which one. Or maybe it was Kingdom who did, either one o_O Show nested quote +
Uhm.. In how many of those games zerg went lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling >_<
and btw, in ALL of these series (- reach/chojja and reach/yellow) at least 1 island map was present.
Uh, the ONLY zerg who does lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling these days is IPXZerg and sometimes chojja..? In summary: Starleagues won/top 3 finishes: Terran: Boxer 3 (OGN 2, MBC 1), 2nd places 4 (OGN 4), 3rd place 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1) Oov 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd places 2 (OGN 2) Nada 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 2nd places 3 (MBC 3), 3rd places 1 (MBC 1) Sync 1 (OGN 1) Xellos 1 (OGN 1), 3rd places 2 (MBC 1, OGN 1) Silent_Control 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Protoss: Nal_rA 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (OGN) 3rd place 1 (MBC) Reach 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 3 (MBC 2, OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Garimto 2 (OGN 2) Grrr 1 (OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Anytime 1 (OGN 1) Kingdom 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Pusan 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Zeus 2nd place 1 (OGN) Zerg: July 2 (OGN 2), 2nd places 2 (OGN 2) Gorush 1 (MBC 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) IPXZerg 1 (MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Yellow 2nd place 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd place 2 (OGN 2) Junwi 3rd place 1 Chojja 1 (MBC 1), 2nd places 2 (OGN 1 MBC 1) The zerg list ends here (forgot about some recent wins :D) WCG Winners: Terran: Boxer 2 (2001, 2002) Xellos 1 (2004) Elky 2nd place 1 (2001) Midas 2nd place 1 (2004) Androide 2nd place 1 (2005) Zerg: Gorush 1 (2000, technically this wasn't wcg but WCGC - world cyber games challenge, but I think it counts as it was basically just wcg with a different name) Ogogo 1 (2003) Yellow 2nd place 1 (2002) I.love.star 2nd place 1 (2000) Protoss: ForU 1 (2005) Fisheye (2003) GhemTV: Terran: Nada 1 Oddysay 1 Protoss: Grrr 2nd place 1 (losing to oddysay) Zerg: H.O.T 2nd place 1 (Losing to nada, at least I think so). KT-KTF Premiere League: Terran: Nada 1 (winning the first one) Boxer 2nd place 1 (runner up of the first one) Zerg: Julyzerg 1 (winning the second) Gorush 2nd place 1 (runner up of the second) Then there were those mini-KT-KTF tournaments which nal_ra won 3/4 I think, but maybe they are too small to count :D And I don't know who won the ITV leagues.. I think oov might have won one and july runner up? Or reversed? Or was that like a semi-final? Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 06:20 OctoPuSs wrote:
FA
The map in the MSL savior won were : Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Thx. Thx also to hasuprotoss. And if anyone has the results for all the differnet King of Kings tournaments feel free to mention those, I know Mumyung beat Yellow 3-0 in one :D And Yellow beat gundam 3-0 in one I think? And he also beat boxer 3-1 in one. So in conclusion - Yeah, toss is going through a rough patch with the removal of two of their best maps in a long time - Neo Forte and R-point, as well as the removal of Luna and Requiem (especially requiem). Yeah, Nal_rA just got back from a long slump and reach 'just' entered one, but no, your initial statement (which is what started all of this) was this: Show nested quote +
It's imbalanced enough that Protoss never wins Starleague if they have to play any BO3s or higher against Z. I'd say that's indeed "as imbalanced as I was making it out to be". By the way, I'm sure I'm just as mature and educated as you imply yourself to be, if not moreso.
I proved COMPLETELY 100% false. I will say this tho - I do think PvsZ is hard, I do not feel confident about my favourite winning when they play vs a Zerg, and well, despite my being worse at it, I do feel more comfortable playing a terran. However, when I look at things rationally, I don't think PvZ is imbalanced, if I look at the stats of (for instance) nal_ra who was on a what, 10 game winning streak vs zerg? I know he didn't lose because of an imbalance (you gonna say BoxeR lost cause TvZ is imbalanced? they were both on 10~ game winning streaks vs zerg), I know that statistically I'm better at PvZ but that PvT is less stressful so that's why I prefer it if it's something important... ETC. Hard to explain I guess. That's from 2006, when up to a year prior Protosses were complaining about PvZ and how it was the most difficult match up in the game. Some (including some TL mods) even said it was imbalanced. Then GOM MSL 1 happened and all Zergs came to hate the bisu build.That's why we don't immediately project our first thoughts on balance, like your average WoW player. We're all ignorant. You can't complain about Hilbert's Problems when you can barely do subtraction.
I see so many posts like this. I'm not sure I agree with it, but I'd appreciate it if someone would help me develop my thinking.
The argument, as I see it, essentially goes as follows: 1) There were perceived imbalances in Starcraft Broodwar. 2) Later, those imbalances dissapeared as strategies evolved. 3) Thus, perceived imbalances in Starcraft 2 should not be addressed through patches, and rather through the development of new strategies, because those perceieved balances too will dissapear as new strategies develop.
Doesn't this argument ignore the fact many Starcraft 2 players have a Starcraft Broodwar background? In Starcraft Broodwar, the early years were dominated by players who focused on micro. Later on, players realized that macro style play was superior. Thus, when Starcraft 2 came out, even though the user interface has been simplified, macro is still prioritized over micro. My point is Starcraft 2 players come to the game with a substantial body of knowledge. And as such, we shouldn't count on the game taking as much time to develop.
More fundamentally, I disagree with the proposition that because something is complicated one cannot have beliefs about it. In other words, that because Starcraft 2 is a complicated game, and that it's possible opinions on its balance might be wrong, people should refrain from making them, especially because people were wrong about balance in Starcraft Broodwar. The sun is a complicated object, but we can and should make assertions about it, despite the fact that in the past humans thought it was God.
Rather, people should just be careful. Starcraft 2 has been out about a year (with Beta). A player who has played thousands of game is not being cavelier when he give his opinion about the game's balance. Or at least that's my current opinion.
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On April 07 2011 04:36 Jibba wrote:
That's from 2006, when up to a year prior Protosses were complaining about PvZ and how it was the most difficult match up in the game. Some (including some TL mods) even said it was imbalanced. Then GOM MSL 1 happened and all Zergs came to hate the bisu build.
That's why we don't immediately project our first thoughts on balance, like your average WoW player. We're all ignorant. You can't complain about Hilbert's Problems when you can barely do subtraction.
That's such a fantastic blast from the past, thanks for digging it up. xD
It illustrates the point really well. People can choose to focus on perceived imbalances until 2016 (roughly equivalent to 2006 in BW), or they can play the game, get better at it and enjoy when revolutionary new things get discovered by truly talented players - and it was a real moment of greatness every time something like that happened in BW, games that you never forget as a fan.
The only thing Blizzard can do at this point is to CHANGE the game balance. There won't be a single guarantee that the change is actually an improvement because the immediate impact of the change will never be a sufficient evidence. Nobody really knew the game before the change, and after every change people would know even less about it.
Blizzard's RTS games tend to have a life and life cycles of their own. Let SC2 grow in peace and enjoy it.
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On April 07 2011 04:53 Swarmed wrote:
@Jibba
I'm tempted to agree with you, but Zerg did just come out of a round of serious problems in ZvT, which ended with the roach range buff.
Now we're talking about ZvP, with the extreme vulnerability to warpgate pressure early on if you don't want to put yourself behind econ-wise and the inefficiency lategame as well as inability to really benefit from great macro play because it quickly ties up your supply with drones.
At what point would you stop and consider that maybe there is just a problem with Zerg design and it does in fact need help in some way shape or form?
not to comment on balance to much but the roach buff isn't why zvt stopped being imbalanced. I would say its more reaper nerf, and can't build a rax till after supply depo. I do think zvt is balanced but others do not.
Again I would like to say last nights state of the game was amazing I enjoyed it alot
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On April 07 2011 04:56 blade55555 wrote:not to comment on balance to much but the roach buff isn't why zvt stopped being imbalanced. I would say its more reaper nerf, and can't build a rax till after supply depo. I do think zvt is balanced but others do not. Again I would like to say last nights state of the game was amazing I enjoyed it alot
You're right, I didn't mention those. The point was just that ZvT was deemed imbalanced in the early game and things were patched to address it. I have a feeling ZvP will end the same way, it's just a shame we have to wait longer for the community to come to an understanding about it with figures like Day[9] more or less advocating against balance discussion altogether.
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On April 07 2011 02:22 Swarmed wrote:
@DyEnasTy
I usually like SotG, it's a fun show. This one was just pretty bland because they were exceedingly tame about the MLG issues and because of the whole "nananabooboo imbalance doesn't exist this game is new tralala" attitude as the only response to IdrA's serious arguments.
If I had to rate SotG from the beginning and I've listened to it for quite some time, it's a great show.
However I'm going to agree with a few others in this thread who said each race should be represented in the pillars of the show. It does get kinda silly when there are good game discussions but there's no top Terran or Zerg to comment.
So freaking what? There is/was/always will be problems. They are not going to shit on MLG even if they werent involved with it. Think about it this way: If they say shit, they get shit. If they dont say shit, they still get shit. So if they say: yes this is imba, they will alienate whatever part of the community that plays that race. And if they arent ready to say the game is inbalanced, or broken, than they still get flamed for it? I play terran, and yes hearing them talk shit about terran without a terran there hurts. But I love hearing the rants on the show. Doesnt affect my life in the slightest. At least not enough to make rage posts about it.
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On April 07 2011 04:15 Swarmed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 03:50 Treehead wrote:
The progamers' immediate future dies if SC2 dies as an e-sport also. This doesn't seem to stop Idra. Because IdrA wants the game to succeed as an Esport through the community and eventually Blizzard coming to an understanding and working towards a solid foundation for the game balance wise, whereas Day[9] wants the game to succeed as an Esport by pretending that there is basically no such thing as imbalance because Zergs need to nydus/infestor/drop (pick your pleasure) more. Thing is TL has banned so much because of "zerg whine" that really you get this distorted perception of reality where the "community" (as molded by TL mods) does not believe there is imbalance or has an extremely PC position on it in order to keep posting. It's pretty easy to accomplish when you just remove the people who disagree, lol.
Save all the balance whine for: HERE
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Anyone knows, or has calculated, the precise result of the MLG outcome on seeds ?
I don't remember where the format can be found, or how much points are gained/lost, or how gaining and losing those points. How many points did Naniwa earned for instance ? How many points where won/lost by the 16 seeds ?
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I have to admit, I'm not a fan of how Day9 adresses balance as a non-issue either.
He very well knows the game is yet to get a ton of patching addressing balance.
The SC2 community is very very smart and when it screams somethng needs fixed, usually Blizzard looks into it, agrees and makes the needed changes.
I fully expect Zerg to get a bit of a design change down the road. I also expect the 4 gate to get toned down.
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On April 07 2011 04:54 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 04:36 Jibba wrote:On April 07 2011 04:15 Swarmed wrote:On April 07 2011 03:50 Treehead wrote:
The progamers' immediate future dies if SC2 dies as an e-sport also. This doesn't seem to stop Idra. Because IdrA wants the game to succeed as an Esport through the community and eventually Blizzard coming to an understanding and working towards a solid foundation for the game balance wise, whereas Day[9] wants the game to succeed as an Esport by pretending that there is basically no such thing as imbalance because Zergs need to nydus/infestor/drop (pick your pleasure) more. Thing is TL has banned so much because of "zerg whine" that really you get this distorted perception of reality where the "community" (as molded by TL mods) does not believe there is imbalance or has an extremely PC position on it in order to keep posting. It's pretty easy to accomplish when you just remove the people who disagree, lol. + Show Spoiler [Monster FA post] +On May 26 2006 09:26 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Np, Gokai Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:19 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:17 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Eh, testie will just tell you everyone whines too much and say the game is balanced - he's been asked before ;o
And I agree. Trying to be macho and tough doesn't cancel out the facts. People seem to go too much on truthiness with this issue and not enough on truth. Oh yes, very macho, me no fear zerg - ugha bugah, hit zerg with heavvvvvvvvy club, zealot rush keke. I just don't see the imbalance that you see, that's all. I see a problem with maps mostly.. If there is an imbalance I don't think it's big enough to pay any attention to, just need less imbalanced maps. There's a lot less protoss players in korea than there are terrans or zergs (zerg = traditionally korean race I believe, terrans because of boxer) so there's a slightly smaller talent pool, then we have the fact that PvZ takes a lot longer to learn as unlike PvT, it's a matchup where you need experience (ie in PvT you have the complete picture because of your observers, in PvZ you need to be able to read the game a lot more). This also makes it more stressful, harder to learn and easier to fuck up I guess, I don't think it makes it imbalanced tho. There could be changes made, I suppose, that didn't fuck up the balance but nothing major. Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 09:23 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:19 gokai wrote:On May 26 2006 09:12 gravity wrote:On May 26 2006 09:09 gokai wrote:
Yeah, your probably right. Statistics is good way to look at the "big picture". But statistics is such a limited view on Starcraft, as a game and a sport. I'm curious, gravity, to know your skill level and years of experience. No one can a form a complete opinion on starcraft if they don't play it seriously. I don't play much any more (I find the game too intenese/stressful these days ) and was never very good. But my lack of skill doesn't magically make Protoss win starleagues or have an even chance against Z. You don't need to be good at SC to see the facts. Draco and Mondragon aren't very good compared to Ra and Saviour either, but that doesn't seem to stop you wanting their anecdotal opinion. Can Ra and Savior speak english? As a serious gamer, I want anecdotal opinion to improve my own skill. I'm sorry but if you don't play seriously, your opinion is limited to adcademic analysis. Errr, so what? I mean, I can understand if you want the details of good player's opinions to help your game, but their opinion on the fact of whether the game is balanced or not is irrelevant in the face of the evidence. "Academic analysis" is the only way to actually *know*, rather than just "having a feeling", the latter hardly being a good basis to decide policy (of map choice or patching or whatever) on. I wouldn't suggest you ask me the details of playing PvZ well but when it comes to the question of whether it's balanced at pro level, the fact that I've look at the numbers at all makes me more qualified to say than someone who is going solely on gut feeling, no matter how well they play. I guess the numbers I provided you with in the OSL Live report thread weren't good enough for you? Maybe I should repost it here: This is directed mostly at Gravity and partly at SP)diQ Garimto 3-0 Skelton winning OGN Freechal starleague. - Dunno maps (2-0 PvZ, 1-0 PvP). I think the first map was Avant Garde, 3rd - pvp game, was neo blaze. Garimto > Yellow 2-1 on his way to OGN SKY 2001 1st place - Vertigo L , Silent Vortex W, Incubus W Short summary of the games: Game 1 was an attempted hardcore zealot rush which failed (5 vs 1), and he died to the counter mass lings. Game 2 I can't remember, game 3 I can't remember (or well, I'm not sure if I'm remembering him vs Zerglee or him vs Yellow). Reach > Yellow 3-2 on his way to OGN SKY 2002 1st place (Gaema Gowon, vertigo, neo bifrost (I think it was Neo at least), neo forbidden zone (I think it was neo), gaema gowon - not sure about the order except gaema gowon was used twice) Short summary: Game 1 reach goes 1 gate -> sair -> mass range goons and wins, on forbidden zone he won a fairly typical island game I think, on bifrost he attempted to cannon cliff I think, but it failed so he died 10 minutes later, vertigo game was a really close game which ended in sair/dt vs plague/lings, but I can't remember their openings, but fairly standard as I recall. Game 5 was reach opening 1 gate -> sair -> expo with templar and zealots, Yellow going attempting to lurker cliff him and then contain, reach defended everything with perfect storms, moved out with zealot/templar + a few goons and crushed yellow's army in the center. Nal_rA > JJu 3-1 on his way to OGN Hangame 1st place - Paradoxxx II W, neo guillotine W, Nostalgia L, namja W - Didn't see these games. Kingdom > Junwi (used to have a 70% win ratio ZvP) 3-0 on his way to mm, it aws Mycube 2003 that he won right? - Guillotine, Sin Gaema Gowon, Paradoxxx Summary - Well, Gaema gowon game was 2 gate-> contain at ramp with zealots -> get zealot speed -> win. Didn't watch the rest. Grrr > H.O.T 3-2 (I'm not sure what the matchups were, but Grrr randomed terran in the last game to win, I think the rest might have been PvZ, but again, not sure) winning OGN Hanaro starleague. Didn't watch (or I might have.. but I can't remember them well enough, also not sure if it's the right grrr vs hot games). He later beat TheBoy 3-2 (0-2 TvZ ZvZ 3-0 PvZ) to win the first King of Kings. Didn't watch. Reach 3-2 Chojja (then 1-3 IPXZerg in the final) in the losers final of MBC Uzoo starleague. I think the maps were Requiem, Luna, Rush Hour and uhhhhhhhhh, can't remember the last map. Only watched parts of this, but the game on rush hour was a 1 hour long epic struggle which ended with both players mostly broke (distance mining) and reach managing to maelstrom about 30 devourers and then storming all for the win). The game on Requiem was a zealot rush game I believe. Back in MBC Spris starleague, Eros~Rage beat Julyzerg 2-1 (also beat Chojja 1-0, rA knocked him into losers bracket then knocked him out completely). Didn't watch these. MBC Stout starleague nal_ra won, but I'm not sure if he played any zerg in a BO3 ;< Now I'm not gonna count only starleague games/games where the player went on to win a starleague. BO3+s Ps have lost: Nal_rA vs JJu 1-2 OGN SinHan 2006 1 - Game 1 = attempted 1+ zealot rush but got counter attacked and lost to lurkers, game 2 = proxy gate win, game 3 = fast expo into 2 stargate corsair + dt drop, kinda close game but lost. Reach vs July 1-3 OGN Gillette 2003 finals - Nostalgia W, Mercury L, Namja iyagi L and requiem L , only watched the game on nostalgia where reach did a 1 gate -> scout -> dt -> expo -> macro thing and won, caught glimpses of the game on namja where he went sair reaver and lost to mass muta+queens and devourers I think. Reach vs IPXZerg 1-3 MBC Uzoo 2005 finals - only watched parts of the game on Luna, longish and (I think) closeish game, but horrible lag made it hard to watch. Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Reach vs Mumyung 1-2 (in MBC I think) - Ride of Valkyrie W, Dark Sauron II L, R-point L - these games were all zealot/templar/dragoon vs hydra/lurker/ling, except in the r-point game where reach went with a more zealot/archon oriented force not knowing mumyung had made like 20 lurkers Hm.. I'm missing tons here obviously.. (missed quite a few PvZ wins too) Nal_rA vs Yellow from WCG qualifications in 2002.. Hm.. The maps were Legacy of Char and Jungle story I think? Or was it BO1 and only legacy of char? Reach vs Yellow from Blizzcon (1-2) and did he lose again in World Wide Invitational? I don't remember what maps they played (I think uh.. nightlight and king of the abyss and uh signal?) Reach vs Junwi - 2-3 In the.. OGN Mycube 3rd place game I think! (nostalgia, guillotine, paradoxxx, gaema gowon, nostalgia, all I remember is reach lost the last game on nostalgia which was a 50 minute, or so, battle). Pusan vs July 0-3 (ride of valkyries, cultivation period, rush hour 2) in the Shinhan Bank OSL (2005-2006) Chojja vs Stork 2-0 in the Pringles MSL on 815 and Cultivation period. If anyone knows who/by what score rA lost to julyzerg and yellow in the Snickers Allstars please fill me in~ I think he lost either 1-3 or 1-2 to yellow? A couple of wins I forgot in my earlier post: Kingdom vs JJu 2-0 in some MBC Starleague, I only remember 1 of the games was on Luna and really good. Reach vs Yellow 3-2 - Ever 2004 3rd place game, Mercury L, Pelennor L, requiem W, bifrost III W, mercury W - Game 1 I can't remember well, except reach lost, game 2 was either on pelennor or requiem, on pelennor he lost a kinda close game consisting of lurker ling vs zealot templar, on requiem he won but I can't remember how, on bifrost he miraculously won but I don't remember how exactly, on mercury in the final game he won because he stormed beautifully and maybe yellow fucked up a bit too (hey, mercury is like top 3 worst pvz map ever so you need some luck). Foru vs Julyzerg 2-0 - WCG qualifiers - Azalea and dunno (I think those were the maps at least) Reach vs Mondragon 2-1 - Blizzcon (I think it's kind of fair to count this, mondragon's ZvsP is pro-level) .. Hm, Signal, Road to Antiga Prime, Nightlight, possibly reverse order. Nal_rA vs Mondragon 2-0 - Blizzcon - Signal and Nightlight, not sure about the order. Nal_rA 2-1 IPXZerg in some all-star thing I guess mentioning Foru's and Reach's wins vs Sen would be stretching it : > I can't remember all the countless bo3s in challenge league/survivor, but I know that zergs mostly win those (there's a looooooooooooot more zerg players too, which has to be kept in mind). Ah, I'm almost certain Nal_rA beat July 2-1 in MBC once, but I can't remember which one. Or maybe it was Kingdom who did, either one o_O Show nested quote +
Uhm.. In how many of those games zerg went lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling >_<
and btw, in ALL of these series (- reach/chojja and reach/yellow) at least 1 island map was present.
Uh, the ONLY zerg who does lurker contain -> 3-4 base ultra ling these days is IPXZerg and sometimes chojja..? In summary: Starleagues won/top 3 finishes: Terran: Boxer 3 (OGN 2, MBC 1), 2nd places 4 (OGN 4), 3rd place 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1) Oov 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd places 2 (OGN 2) Nada 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 2nd places 3 (MBC 3), 3rd places 1 (MBC 1) Sync 1 (OGN 1) Xellos 1 (OGN 1), 3rd places 2 (MBC 1, OGN 1) Silent_Control 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Protoss: Nal_rA 2 (OGN 1, MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (OGN) 3rd place 1 (MBC) Reach 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 3 (MBC 2, OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Garimto 2 (OGN 2) Grrr 1 (OGN 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) Anytime 1 (OGN 1) Kingdom 1 (OGN 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Pusan 3rd places 1 (OGN 1) Zeus 2nd place 1 (OGN) Zerg: July 2 (OGN 2), 2nd places 2 (OGN 2) Gorush 1 (MBC 1), 3rd place 1 (OGN 1) IPXZerg 1 (MBC 1), 2nd place 1 (MBC 1) Yellow 2nd place 5 (OGN 2, MBC 3), 3rd place 2 (OGN 2) Junwi 3rd place 1 Chojja 1 (MBC 1), 2nd places 2 (OGN 1 MBC 1) The zerg list ends here (forgot about some recent wins :D) WCG Winners: Terran: Boxer 2 (2001, 2002) Xellos 1 (2004) Elky 2nd place 1 (2001) Midas 2nd place 1 (2004) Androide 2nd place 1 (2005) Zerg: Gorush 1 (2000, technically this wasn't wcg but WCGC - world cyber games challenge, but I think it counts as it was basically just wcg with a different name) Ogogo 1 (2003) Yellow 2nd place 1 (2002) I.love.star 2nd place 1 (2000) Protoss: ForU 1 (2005) Fisheye (2003) GhemTV: Terran: Nada 1 Oddysay 1 Protoss: Grrr 2nd place 1 (losing to oddysay) Zerg: H.O.T 2nd place 1 (Losing to nada, at least I think so). KT-KTF Premiere League: Terran: Nada 1 (winning the first one) Boxer 2nd place 1 (runner up of the first one) Zerg: Julyzerg 1 (winning the second) Gorush 2nd place 1 (runner up of the second) Then there were those mini-KT-KTF tournaments which nal_ra won 3/4 I think, but maybe they are too small to count :D And I don't know who won the ITV leagues.. I think oov might have won one and july runner up? Or reversed? Or was that like a semi-final? Show nested quote +On May 26 2006 06:20 OctoPuSs wrote:
FA
The map in the MSL savior won were : Rush Hour, Luna, Requiem and Raid Asaullt 2.0 Thx. Thx also to hasuprotoss. And if anyone has the results for all the differnet King of Kings tournaments feel free to mention those, I know Mumyung beat Yellow 3-0 in one :D And Yellow beat gundam 3-0 in one I think? And he also beat boxer 3-1 in one. So in conclusion - Yeah, toss is going through a rough patch with the removal of two of their best maps in a long time - Neo Forte and R-point, as well as the removal of Luna and Requiem (especially requiem). Yeah, Nal_rA just got back from a long slump and reach 'just' entered one, but no, your initial statement (which is what started all of this) was this: Show nested quote +
It's imbalanced enough that Protoss never wins Starleague if they have to play any BO3s or higher against Z. I'd say that's indeed "as imbalanced as I was making it out to be". By the way, I'm sure I'm just as mature and educated as you imply yourself to be, if not moreso.
I proved COMPLETELY 100% false. I will say this tho - I do think PvsZ is hard, I do not feel confident about my favourite winning when they play vs a Zerg, and well, despite my being worse at it, I do feel more comfortable playing a terran. However, when I look at things rationally, I don't think PvZ is imbalanced, if I look at the stats of (for instance) nal_ra who was on a what, 10 game winning streak vs zerg? I know he didn't lose because of an imbalance (you gonna say BoxeR lost cause TvZ is imbalanced? they were both on 10~ game winning streaks vs zerg), I know that statistically I'm better at PvZ but that PvT is less stressful so that's why I prefer it if it's something important... ETC. Hard to explain I guess. That's from 2006, when up to a year prior Protosses were complaining about PvZ and how it was the most difficult match up in the game. Some (including some TL mods) even said it was imbalanced. Then GOM MSL 1 happened and all Zergs came to hate the bisu build.That's why we don't immediately project our first thoughts on balance, like your average WoW player. We're all ignorant. You can't complain about Hilbert's Problems when you can barely do subtraction. I see so many posts like this. I'm not sure I agree with it, but I'd appreciate it if someone would help me develop my thinking. The argument, as I see it, essentially goes as follows: 1) There were perceived imbalances in Starcraft Broodwar. 2) Later, those imbalances dissapeared as strategies evolved. 3) Thus, perceived imbalances in Starcraft 2 should not be addressed through patches, and rather through the development of new strategies, because those perceieved balances too will dissapear as new strategies develop. Doesn't this argument ignore the fact many Starcraft 2 players have a Starcraft Broodwar background? In Starcraft Broodwar, the early years were dominated by players who focused on micro. Later on, players realized that macro style play was superior. Thus, when Starcraft 2 came out, even though the user interface has been simplified, macro is still prioritized over micro. My point is Starcraft 2 players come to the game with a substantial body of knowledge. And as such, we shouldn't count on the game taking as much time to develop. More fundamentally, I disagree with the proposition that because something is complicated one cannot have beliefs about it. In other words, that because Starcraft 2 is a complicated game, and that it's possible opinions on its balance might be wrong, people should refrain from making them, especially because people were wrong about balance in Starcraft Broodwar. The sun is a complicated object, but we can and should make assertions about it, despite the fact that in the past humans thought it was God. Rather, people should just be careful. Starcraft 2 has been out about a year (with Beta). A player who has played thousands of game is not being cavelier when he give his opinion about the game's balance. Or at least that's my current opinion.
Remember, the post was from 2006 - which means BW had been out for many years at the time that was posted.
You can have whatever beliefs you want. That isn't the issue. The issue is that when people become militant about their beliefs and demand changes to game mechanics, it closes the possibility for innovation like what Bisu came up with. In line with your analogy: Yes, the sun is complicated, and yes we should make assertions about it, but that doesn't mean the first assertion we make must immediately change societal perception of the world around us. You need some time, some evidence and some method. Scientists came up with that.
If the evidence was something along the lines of "Look guys, there are only 2 zergs in the GSL and they haven't been able to win any matches off of P opponents in 3 seasons because they can never get their natural up and running." - that would be one thing. That isn't the situation.
The other issue is that it can take hundreds of games to completely master 1 build. So, when your opportunities for innovation is everything under the sun... well, that takes a while to test.
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EPT
