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On April 07 2011 02:29 DNA61289 wrote:My thoughts exactly, I'm glad someone else can see the BS that gets thrown around a lot in this community. It's one thing to have a positive attitude and another to be willfully ignorant, day9 and a large part of the community are the latter. I like day9, but just because i like him doesn't mean i should let him make false statements about the current state of the game.
Day[9] is far from ignorant. But he is like a political activist in favor of outlawing balance talk (or just about). Dogma to keep the peace rather than opening the discussion and dealing with controversy. I don't question his understanding of the game, but when it comes to that subject, I think he's a lot less neutral than IdrA in his own fashion.
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Day9 is a big troll, I don't like Idra too much as well, but men laughing in his face and trolling when he was talking about zerg imbalance just shows how imature day9 is.
EDIT: you people can love him as much as you like, but let me have my own opinion of him and not like him.
Just in case some1 starts feeling smart and insulting my own opinion.
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All you Zerg whiners seem to be missing the point of Day9/tyler's points about why complaining about balance is silly. Think about it this way, 200 years ago people couldn't fly. People therefore had three options:
1. Give up. GG - birds are OP.
2. Pray to God to give them wings by posting on forums and whining for a buff.
3. Just figure it out by building an airplane
Until all possibilities have been explored it seems silly to whine about imbalance. Nobody is saying it is easy, but abandoning all sense of creativity and giving up is just dumb. That attitude leads to Zerg being even more underpowered as seen by IdrA losing to an army of units that can't even do damage.
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On April 07 2011 02:29 DNA61289 wrote:Show nested quote +Just a couple things. First off talking balance with Day[9] is like trying to discuss the many possibilities when it comes to the origins of life and the universe with a religious zealot. Day[9] refuses to talk about possible imbalance simply out of principle. Back in the day of 5rax reaper, when it was obvious to just about everyone even top Terran players, he was still arguing that Zerg hadn't "figured it out yet". And he will keep spouting that line until a balance patch comes and will probably still claim that it wasn't imbalanced and we just didn't give it enough time. When you think about it, it makes sense for his casting career, because he wants to work with Blizzard sanctioned tournaments and being known for balance complaints is a form of controversy that he probably just doesn't want to be a part of.
And all of that would be just fine and dandy, if he could just say he "doesn't want to comment on it" instead of trolling and/or making plain BS statements, as if there was a bajillion options that the pros haven't figured out yet in Zerg's weak early game. Ok Day[9], why don't you show us your revolutionary Zerg openings and midgame transitions that none of the pros have figured out yet and that actually work above silver league?
As for Tyler I don't know what kind of chill pipe he's smoking but honestly talking about the refinement of protoss play when the whole race is mostly based on warpgate timing attacks negating defender's advantage then turtling into deathball in some way shape or form and all of this with very minimal risk is a little funny to me. Maybe I'm missing something but atm Protoss is definitely the race I find the most boring to watch, mirror or not. Why is that? Because it's where the least risk is involved, except maybe when it comes to mirror BO losses. I feel both Zerg and Terran have to work harder for most of their wins atm. Protoss never looks like it's really endangered unless their opponent is outplaying them significantly. And yes Tyler, Zerg players will tend do make more mistakes when there is about a hundred forms of pressure and timing attacks they can insta-lose to and need different responses to. I know it's something that seems very hard to grasp when you play a race that can safely pressure expand and tech at the same time and not really get punished for it, but it's pretty obvious to most everyone else.
The bottom line is, no matter how much sugarcoating Day[9] or Tyler do, I know thanks to my Xray vision that when Day[9] spawns as Zerg, he knows just like any semi-competent player who picks random just for shits and giggles that he's got an uphill battle ahead of him. Unless he's dropped in bronze lately... but if he's in diamond or anywhere above, he knows just as well as Idra the amount of pressure, allins and other fun stuff he has to deal with in order to get into the midgame on equal footing.
When it comes to MLG it's obvious Day[9] and JP don't really want to talk about it because it doesn't really look good to stir up drama for people who are your employers once in a while? As for how to handle it, someone else put it pretty well: if you have to lie / sugarcoat, do it by omission, aka just don't comment too much on it and move on. But going out of your way to say it's not really MLG's fault, that's just overdoing it. Not like they've had major stream issues in the past right? Yeah, ok. How many times are we going to make excuses for them? 2,3,4 more tournaments down the line? When does it stop being ok that a major player like MLG can't get their shit together? I don't know, but not early enough apparently.
In any case, it's definitely refreshing to hear IdrA in the middle of a lot of political correctness, both when it comes to balance discussions and MLG. Too much PC can quickly make a good show rather boring. So thanks IdrA for saving the day. My thoughts exactly, I'm glad someone else can see the BS that gets thrown around a lot in this community. It's one thing to have a positive attitude and another to be willfully ignorant, day9 and a large part of the community are the latter. I like day9, but just because i like him doesn't mean i should let him make false statements about the current state of the game.
False statements, please cite. He said few suggestions how some problems MIGHT be solved, but he did not play all knowing god. The only person acting like there is nothing knew to know about zerg was Idra, especially when he said few arguments, that are reasonable in itself, but he used them to say that they prove there is imbalance concerning Zerg. At that point Day9 chuckled and I perfectly understood why. Idra's arguments were good but selective and proving nothing, they just showed some areas that Zerg's have problems with, nothing more can be concluded from them.
I am certain Idra exaggerated the use of word proof, because I am pretty sure he knows what real proof entails.
In the end balance discussions are mostly useless and there is enough balance whining everywhere else. I find the discussion last week about specific styles of specific people much more productive and interesting and I hope they steer clear of balance discussions in the future.
As for MLG, what was there more to say, not much. They were wrong about MLG not being able to test traffic load beforehand, but that's about it.
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Back in the day of 5rax reaper, when it was obvious to just about everyone even top Terran players, he was still arguing that Zerg hadn't "figured it out yet".
Ironic, given that I seem to remember that on this cast they said that reapers were nerfed too much when Zergs were just starting to figure them out. The reaper nerfs were related to 2v2's as well. How about when Protoss couldn't beat mutas, it was 'obvious' to so many toss users that mutalisks were ridiculous and they needed a nerf or protoss' anti air needed a buff. Should Blizzard have just nerfed mutas at that point?
There are so many things that were used near release that are unthinkably bad now, and there is absolutely no doubt that in a year the meta game will have gone through a lot of changes. The way the game is played will change. Things may be imbalanced.
Day[9]'s point is not that you can figure out a way round every possible imbalance, or that nothing is imbalanced. It's that balance shouldn't be your concern, and that blaming a build or a race for your losses isn't going to help you. Blizzard aren't going to go on the b.net forums, see 'PROTOSS SO OP SORT IT OUT BLIZZ' and go 'Oh shit they're right!'. They balance by a number of methods, but whine is not one of them.
As that applies specifically to IdrA, whose opinion IS notable, see my last post. Fuck it I'll just c+v it;
For fucks sake, he let himself get so frustrated even when he was getting ahead the whole game that he quit when seeing hallucinations.
If that's not rock solid proof of the wrong mind set, I don't know what is.
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@Pyo
Let's be honest though, it's probably easier to get through to Blizzard than to God 
As for Zerg being creative, lol. Look at the tools available.
How many times are people going to say "just nydus more". Now it's "just go mass infestors".
Yeah, except you need an opening and midgame plan to get settled and have enough gas.
And your opponent is here to make sure that should you stay alive, you won't have enough gas left to go mass infestor.
People are pointing to Dimaga vs MVP in a game that, although it was interesting, he was about to lose, and was in fact lucky to get a regame. Talk about being a little dishonest here...
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On April 07 2011 03:01 Swarmed wrote:@Pyo Let's be honest though, it's probably easier to get through to Blizzard than to God As for Zerg being creative, lol. Look at the tools available. How many times are people going to say "just nydus more". Now it's "just go mass infestors". Yeah, except you need an opening and midgame plan to get settled and have enough gas. And your opponent is here to make sure that should you stay alive, you won't have enough gas left to go mass infestor. People are pointing to Dimaga vs MVP in a game that, although it was interesting, he was about to lose because, and was in fact lucky to get a regame. Talk about being a little dishonest here...
No one is saying 'just' go 'mass' infestors. But regardless, look at your own post. To paraphrase you, infestors could work but there's no build figured out for it yet and you'll just die and it'll suck.
Also Dimaga wasn't about to lose, he was just behind. But if he'd switched to spire earlier (his spire was coming..) he'd likely have been way ahead.
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On April 07 2011 03:01 Swarmed wrote:@Pyo Let's be honest though, it's probably easier to get through to Blizzard than to God
Actually you are false. I mean those who don't believe don't, but please don't be so bold with your statements because its not true, I can tell you from personal experience.
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Zerg players already know what's really good just the execution is hard.
This really is an interesting discussion if you get into it. I understand why Day9 doesn't want to talk about it but that doesn't make SotG much fun.
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On April 07 2011 02:59 The KY wrote:
They balance by a number of methods, but whine is not one of them.
Acknowledging imbalance actually goes pretty far.
Once you acknowledge, even half heartedly, that something may be imbalanced, everyone interested in easy wins on ladder (and there are quite a few) is going to push it as hard as they can.
As a result, either the metagame will evolve because some top players under pressure will find a solution to survive, or it will will stagnate because the pros can't figure out a counter and then the "imbalance" will become a little too obvious, calling enough attention to it that it might need to be patched.
What does not help at all is denial, or militant censorship of balance discussion on the pretense that "omg you can't possibly have tried everything yet".
There's what, 15 units to every race? How many per tier? It's not like there's an infinite amount of viable openings and transitions.
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8751 Posts
On April 07 2011 01:27 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
I really don't agree with Tyler's evaluations at all.
Kas beating Nada is NOT the biggest upset, are you kidding me? Americans still underestimating europeans? TLO took a map of Nada and Kas is like twice as good as TLO at the moment.
Also Adel.Scott is a lot better than what QXC has shown lately.
It's automatically a much bigger match because it's ro16 instead of ro32, and bo5 instead of bo3. Americans underestimating Europeans has nothing to do with it. Looking at the ro16 matches, only MC vs white-ra comes close to being as big. But then it would depend a lot on the content of the games, not just the result. The content of the kas vs nada games will determine the result. If you want to ask which match involves the biggest skill difference between players, that's a different question than which match has the biggest upset potential. Context makes an upset bigger or smaller. My prediction for the series would be 3-1 or 3-2 for NaDa, and my predictions for other series are closer to 3-0 or 3-1 for certain players, but kas>nada would still be the biggest upset for me.
If you want to make an argument for adelscott beating qxc, go for it. There's no reason to respond to this thread just to contradict something we said on the show. No matter what we say, someone disagrees. I say something, and I think "someone out there just disagreed with that." Coming to TL.net and the SOTG thread and basically posting "sup d00ds, im the guy who disagreed with this statement" is absolutely useless. Discuss something if you want to discuss something.
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On April 07 2011 02:51 Swarmed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 02:29 DNA61289 wrote:My thoughts exactly, I'm glad someone else can see the BS that gets thrown around a lot in this community. It's one thing to have a positive attitude and another to be willfully ignorant, day9 and a large part of the community are the latter. I like day9, but just because i like him doesn't mean i should let him make false statements about the current state of the game. Day[9] is far from ignorant. But he is like a political activist in favor of outlawing balance talk (or just about). Dogma to keep the peace rather than opening the discussion and dealing with controversy. I don't question his understanding of the game, but when it comes to that subject, I think he's a lot less neutral than IdrA in his own fashion.
I think he just finds balance talk useless, it might also be about avoiding controversy, but I would say main point is just to avoid a lot of useless wasted time. Because that is exactly what 99.9999% of balance talk is. What insight do you expect to gain from such discussion, what practical knowledge will you gain ? Nothing.
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On April 07 2011 01:27 Swarmed wrote:
Just a couple things. First off talking balance with Day[9] is like trying to discuss the many possibilities when it comes to the origins of life and the universe with a religious zealot. Day[9] refuses to talk about possible imbalance simply out of principle. Back in the day of 5rax reaper, when it was obvious to just about everyone even top Terran players, he was still arguing that Zerg hadn't "figured it out yet". And he will keep spouting that line until a balance patch comes and will probably still claim that it wasn't imbalanced and we just didn't give it enough time. When you think about it, it makes sense for his casting career, because he wants to work with Blizzard sanctioned tournaments and being known for balance complaints is a form of controversy that he probably just doesn't want to be a part of.
And all of that would be just fine and dandy, if he could just say he "doesn't want to comment on it" instead of trolling and/or making plain BS statements, as if there was a bajillion options that the pros haven't figured out yet in Zerg's weak early game. Ok Day[9], why don't you show us your revolutionary Zerg openings and midgame transitions that none of the pros have figured out yet and that actually work above silver league?
As for Tyler I don't know what kind of chill pipe he's smoking but honestly talking about the refinement of protoss play when the whole race is mostly based on warpgate timing attacks negating defender's advantage then turtling into deathball in some way shape or form and all of this with very minimal risk is a little funny to me. Maybe I'm missing something but atm Protoss is definitely the race I find the most boring to watch, mirror or not. Why is that? Because it's where the least risk is involved, except maybe when it comes to mirror BO losses. I feel both Zerg and Terran have to work harder for most of their wins atm. Protoss never looks like it's really endangered unless their opponent is outplaying them significantly. And yes Tyler, Zerg players will tend do make more mistakes when there is about a hundred forms of pressure and timing attacks they can insta-lose to and need different responses to. I know it's something that seems very hard to grasp when you play a race that can safely pressure expand and tech at the same time and not really get punished for it, but it's pretty obvious to most everyone else.
The bottom line is, no matter how much sugarcoating Day[9] or Tyler do, I know thanks to my Xray vision that when Day[9] spawns as Zerg, he knows just like any semi-competent player who picks random just for shits and giggles that he's got an uphill battle ahead of him. Unless he's dropped in bronze lately... but if he's in diamond or anywhere above, he knows just as well as Idra the amount of pressure, allins and other fun stuff he has to deal with in order to get into the midgame on equal footing.
When it comes to MLG it's obvious Day[9] and JP don't really want to talk about it because it doesn't really look good to stir up drama for people who are your employers once in a while? As for how to handle it, someone else put it pretty well: if you have to lie / sugarcoat, do it by omission, aka just don't comment too much on it and move on. But going out of your way to say it's not really MLG's fault, that's just overdoing it. Not like they've had major stream issues in the past right? Yeah, ok. How many times are we going to make excuses for them? 2,3,4 more tournaments down the line? When does it stop being ok that a major player like MLG can't get their shit together? I don't know, but not early enough apparently.
In any case, it's definitely refreshing to hear IdrA in the middle of a lot of political correctness, both when it comes to balance discussions and MLG. Too much PC can quickly make a good show rather boring. So thanks IdrA for saving the day.
You're exactly the kind of person Day9 refers to when he tackles this issue. The problem with talking balance is that discussing balance deters from player's development and mental status for creating strategies. If you think your race is flawed from the roots upward there's no way you can overcome it's difficulties.
I'm not even saying there's not an imbalance, I haven't studied the situation enough to know for certain, but what I do know is that thinking your race is just plain bad makes you be less effective at playing and solving problems. Each strategy your protoss or terran enemy can throw at you is a problem waiting for you to solve it. I'm also pretty certain that by reaching GSL finals in a pretty unorthodox way and beating 4 foreigners in the korea vs world showmatch, July has shown that there's not only one way to play zerg. Idra usually refers to things like "playing a real game" or "this player cannot defeat anyone in a real starcraft match", when the truth is that many times, he's just failed to include more alternatives in his own play. Idra is the typical person who almost never makes mistakes in anything he does, it's always possible to blame something else for bad results.
Again, I'm not saying the game is definitely balanced, what I'm saying is that it's not at all useful for players and communities to discuss balance, since it always ends up becoming a shitstorm of whines and stupid rants. What players and communities should do is try to find ways to overcome that perceived imbalance, and learn how to develop new strategies for the always shifting metagame. In that regard, I believe protoss have definitely evolved a lot more than zerg players, and somewhat more than terran players. This is how it worked in BW proscene (and continues to do so), there's definitely NO WAY BW was balanced, but those imbalances were sorted out, first by changing maps, and later on by intelligent players finding ways to counter them.
PD: I also agree with day9 and many other people. Reapers were nerfed so early and so hard, there wasn't time for strategies around it to develop. The result is now reapers have vanished, except for a cheap early scout, this shouldn't happen again.
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Back in the day of 5rax reaper, when it was obvious to just about everyone even top Terran players, he was still arguing that Zerg hadn't "figured it out yet".
Yeah, and Day 9 was right. Zerg figured it out. Fast roaches.
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On April 07 2011 02:52 thehitman wrote:
Day9 is a big troll, I don't like Idra too much as well, but men laughing in his face and trolling when he was talking about zerg imbalance just shows how imature day9 is.
EDIT: you people can love him as much as you like, but let me have my own opinion of him and not like him.
Just in case some1 starts feeling smart and insulting my own opinion.
He spent half the show making Magikarp faces - somehow I don't think he's marketting on maturity. He's got nothing but respect for the players, though, and I think by now everyone knows it.
On April 07 2011 03:01 Swarmed wrote:
As for Zerg being creative, lol. Look at the tools available.
How many times are people going to say "just nydus more". Now it's "just go mass infestors".
Yeah, except you need an opening and midgame plan to get settled and have enough gas.
And your opponent is here to make sure that should you stay alive, you won't have enough gas left to go mass infestor.
People say this because it's the easiest thing to say. It's harder to go map-by-map - state an attack strategy, pick counterattack paths, list expansion timings based on scouting info, list gas timings, and pick points of engagement if defending becomes necessary, upgrade timings, etc. This game is as complex as any build order, just getting a gas geyser 3 supply earlier opens new possibilities.
There's plenty of room for experimentation, you don't need to get yourself a boatload of gas and make weird units to be innovating.
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Simply put, there are way too many panel regulars who are Protoss and zerg players love when there is finally a zerg panel member on there who can speak for them. Its frustrating to see a zerg get shut down and dismissed as well even after they might bring up good points. IdrA does have a self-defeatist attitude, but that doesn't also mean that his points were incorrect. You can't make it a point to discuss balance on SotG but then when it comes to zerg discussion with a zerg, you just shut him down and troll him by telling him to go mass infestor.
Day9 was indeed trolling and I can't blame him for that. There were actually many non-toss panel members/guests in the past. Zerg-Artosis/Painuser/Machine/IdrA multiple times etc.
Talking balance as a whole is quite irrelevant. For one because it promotes flaming and whining. Second they can't do much about it. And if unless all alternatives are actually being explored, it's moot to go deep into that issue. Players have to play with the cards that are dealt. I for one don't think all options are actually being tested in ZvP. But if IdrA gives up and thinks the MU is unwinnable, new radical strategies won't be discovered.
You can perfectly talk about game mechanics and strategies, while ignoring balance flaming mostly. It is unfortunate they don't talk that indepth about other races, that is true. But that is not a new issue and I hope JP is trying to fix that.
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On April 07 2011 03:11 thehitman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 03:01 Swarmed wrote:@Pyo Let's be honest though, it's probably easier to get through to Blizzard than to God Actually you are false. I mean those who don't believe don't, but please don't be so bold with your statements because its not true, I can tell you from personal experience.
Untransferable (meaning basically subjective) personal experience is meaningless for determining validity of any statements of fact.
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@whoever brings up July, he's had a few successes lately that is true, however, IdrA is definitely one of the most CONSISTENT Zerg players in Sc2 so far. Along with Dimaga etc. And they have definitely all brought up balance concerns.
I mean it's like people bringing up Fruitdealer. Any notable performance lately? Not really.
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Is there a link for downloading mp3? I've looked through a lot of pages of this thread, but haven't found one:|
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EPT
