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@DyEnasTy
I usually like SotG, it's a fun show. This one was just pretty bland because they were exceedingly tame about the MLG issues and because of the whole "nananabooboo imbalance doesn't exist this game is new tralala" attitude as the only response to IdrA's serious arguments.
If I had to rate SotG from the beginning and I've listened to it for quite some time, it's a great show.
However I'm going to agree with a few others in this thread who said each race should be represented in the pillars of the show. It does get kinda silly when there are good game discussions but there's no top Terran or Zerg to comment.
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Amazing how much dumb arguements one can spew out in one post (hi, Swarmed).. It pains me to see people bitch this much about balance for SC2.. you should've seen the early stages of SC:BW, holy shit..
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On April 07 2011 02:08 SilverJohnny wrote:
Something I found interesting about SotG - Sean mentioned how MC would get 3-0'd by White-Ra, and then post on his twitter "rage ladder time!"
Go to MC's twitter. 12 hours ago.
"angry ladder start!!"
could Day[9] be prophetic? could MC be a huge SotG fan? or is he still mad about his series vs MKP? only time will tell...
MC posted that before sotg started and i imagine sean follows him or saw it somehow, day9 is many things but Nostradamus is not one of them lol
also i would like to +1 everything -_- said. the reasons MLG was poor was not just the failure of the stream and technical internet problems but everything he put there as well
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serious lack of incontrol in this episode
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Just a couple things. First off talking balance with Day[9] is like trying to discuss the many possibilities when it comes to the origins of life and the universe with a religious zealot. Day[9] refuses to talk about possible imbalance simply out of principle. Back in the day of 5rax reaper, when it was obvious to just about everyone even top Terran players, he was still arguing that Zerg hadn't "figured it out yet". And he will keep spouting that line until a balance patch comes and will probably still claim that it wasn't imbalanced and we just didn't give it enough time. When you think about it, it makes sense for his casting career, because he wants to work with Blizzard sanctioned tournaments and being known for balance complaints is a form of controversy that he probably just doesn't want to be a part of.
And all of that would be just fine and dandy, if he could just say he "doesn't want to comment on it" instead of trolling and/or making plain BS statements, as if there was a bajillion options that the pros haven't figured out yet in Zerg's weak early game. Ok Day[9], why don't you show us your revolutionary Zerg openings and midgame transitions that none of the pros have figured out yet and that actually work above silver league?
As for Tyler I don't know what kind of chill pipe he's smoking but honestly talking about the refinement of protoss play when the whole race is mostly based on warpgate timing attacks negating defender's advantage then turtling into deathball in some way shape or form and all of this with very minimal risk is a little funny to me. Maybe I'm missing something but atm Protoss is definitely the race I find the most boring to watch, mirror or not. Why is that? Because it's where the least risk is involved, except maybe when it comes to mirror BO losses. I feel both Zerg and Terran have to work harder for most of their wins atm. Protoss never looks like it's really endangered unless their opponent is outplaying them significantly. And yes Tyler, Zerg players will tend do make more mistakes when there is about a hundred forms of pressure and timing attacks they can insta-lose to and need different responses to. I know it's something that seems very hard to grasp when you play a race that can safely pressure expand and tech at the same time and not really get punished for it, but it's pretty obvious to most everyone else.
The bottom line is, no matter how much sugarcoating Day[9] or Tyler do, I know thanks to my Xray vision that when Day[9] spawns as Zerg, he knows just like any semi-competent player who picks random just for shits and giggles that he's got an uphill battle ahead of him. Unless he's dropped in bronze lately... but if he's in diamond or anywhere above, he knows just as well as Idra the amount of pressure, allins and other fun stuff he has to deal with in order to get into the midgame on equal footing.
When it comes to MLG it's obvious Day[9] and JP don't really want to talk about it because it doesn't really look good to stir up drama for people who are your employers once in a while? As for how to handle it, someone else put it pretty well: if you have to lie / sugarcoat, do it by omission, aka just don't comment too much on it and move on. But going out of your way to say it's not really MLG's fault, that's just overdoing it. Not like they've had major stream issues in the past right? Yeah, ok. How many times are we going to make excuses for them? 2,3,4 more tournaments down the line? When does it stop being ok that a major player like MLG can't get their shit together? I don't know, but not early enough apparently.
In any case, it's definitely refreshing to hear IdrA in the middle of a lot of political correctness, both when it comes to balance discussions and MLG. Too much PC can quickly make a good show rather boring. So thanks IdrA for saving the day.
My thoughts exactly, I'm glad someone else can see the BS that gets thrown around a lot in this community. It's one thing to have a positive attitude and another to be willfully ignorant, day9 and a large part of the community are the latter. I like day9, but just because i like him doesn't mean i should let him make false statements about the current state of the game.
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On April 07 2011 01:27 Swarmed wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Just a couple things. First off talking balance with Day[9] is like trying to discuss the many possibilities when it comes to the origins of life and the universe with a religious zealot. Day[9] refuses to talk about possible imbalance simply out of principle. Back in the day of 5rax reaper, when it was obvious to just about everyone even top Terran players, he was still arguing that Zerg hadn't "figured it out yet". And he will keep spouting that line until a balance patch comes and will probably still claim that it wasn't imbalanced and we just didn't give it enough time. When you think about it, it makes sense for his casting career, because he wants to work with Blizzard sanctioned tournaments and being known for balance complaints is a form of controversy that he probably just doesn't want to be a part of.
And all of that would be just fine and dandy, if he could just say he "doesn't want to comment on it" instead of trolling and/or making plain BS statements, as if there was a bajillion options that the pros haven't figured out yet in Zerg's weak early game. Ok Day[9], why don't you show us your revolutionary Zerg openings and midgame transitions that none of the pros have figured out yet and that actually work above silver league?
As for Tyler I don't know what kind of chill pipe he's smoking but honestly talking about the refinement of protoss play when the whole race is mostly based on warpgate timing attacks negating defender's advantage then turtling into deathball in some way shape or form and all of this with very minimal risk is a little funny to me. Maybe I'm missing something but atm Protoss is definitely the race I find the most boring to watch, mirror or not. Why is that? Because it's where the least risk is involved, except maybe when it comes to mirror BO losses. I feel both Zerg and Terran have to work harder for most of their wins atm. Protoss never looks like it's really endangered unless their opponent is outplaying them significantly. And yes Tyler, Zerg players will tend do make more mistakes when there is about a hundred forms of pressure and timing attacks they can insta-lose to and need different responses to. I know it's something that seems very hard to grasp when you play a race that can safely pressure expand and tech at the same time and not really get punished for it, but it's pretty obvious to most everyone else.
I agree with the points you brought up in these first three paragraphs, but you could have written that without attacking Day and Tyler.
Obviously, it's a little annoying to hear Day talk about Dimaga's playstyle vs MVP as a refreshing change for Zerg, especially when Dimaga was on the brink of losing that game. Still, some of Day's ideas have worked in certain instances. He had one particular Funday Monday on mass Queens, and while it wasn't the style July opened with vs White Ra in the GSL World, July DID resort to a critical number of Queens after his failed all-in. July won that match. That's not to say it's a viable strategy, but some of what Day preaches can be put into practice. Maybe Zergs do need to experiment a bit more.
As for Tyler's views, can you really blame him? He's Protoss player who sees things through a Protoss lense. Why should he have to change his tone to address off-race issues?
Edit: I don't really like saying that Zergs should be the ones to experiment more, because in all honestly I believe that Protoss makes the ZvP match up boring. However, with Zergs on the losing end of games, the responsibility is on them to diversify the match up. Protoss players can play with an "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" attitude.
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SotG is a lot less interesting without Geoff.
Greg: Zerg is harder
Day: Silence + silly face......
Everyone: Awkward silence
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I'm not sure if it was because of the post dallas buzz but I felt this episode was quite a bit more lively and interactive than a lot of the past episodes.
Day9, and Tyler for example had a loooooot more to say than usual and Idra was very good chipping in here and there.
I have to say I've much preferred incontrol's contributions lately since he's taken to toning it down a bit, but the balance for this most recent episode was about perfect for me.
Good work =]
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The truth is, the "Zerg is imbalanced" topic has been talked to death, and it's an inconclusive discussion right now.
Idra has some valid concerns about the design of the race and game overall, but at the same time it's hard to believe that every possible late/overall game strategy, particularly against protoss, has been explored.
Even though there have been no significant torunament wins for Zerg in recent months, there's players like JulyZerg and Dimaga that are beating great players as Zergs, and approaching the game and race differently. And I have to give IdrA credit as well -- if you ever watch his stream, he is capable of some pretty inspired play.
I think the metagame has to develop a bit more before it's worth discussing usefully. It's only been a couple of weeks since patch 1.3 came out. Maybe after the next MLG and the NASL division results, it might be worth talking about at length.
And part of Day9 and Nony's disinterest comes from knowing IdrA as a friend. It's their way of saying, "Dude, stop obsessing about balance ... it's hurting more than helping".
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What part of the podcast did Day9 first make the Magikarp face? I can't find it again.
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On April 07 2011 01:27 Swarmed wrote:
Just a couple things. First off talking balance with Day[9] is like trying to discuss the many possibilities when it comes to the origins of life and the universe with a religious zealot. Day[9] refuses to talk about possible imbalance simply out of principle. Back in the day of 5rax reaper, when it was obvious to just about everyone even top Terran players, he was still arguing that Zerg hadn't "figured it out yet". And he will keep spouting that line until a balance patch comes and will probably still claim that it wasn't imbalanced and we just didn't give it enough time. When you think about it, it makes sense for his casting career, because he wants to work with Blizzard sanctioned tournaments and being known for balance complaints is a form of controversy that he probably just doesn't want to be a part of.
And all of that would be just fine and dandy, if he could just say he "doesn't want to comment on it" instead of trolling and/or making plain BS statements, as if there was a bajillion options that the pros haven't figured out yet in Zerg's weak early game. Ok Day[9], why don't you show us your revolutionary Zerg openings and midgame transitions that none of the pros have figured out yet and that actually work above silver league?
As for Tyler I don't know what kind of chill pipe he's smoking but honestly talking about the refinement of protoss play when the whole race is mostly based on warpgate timing attacks negating defender's advantage then turtling into deathball in some way shape or form and all of this with very minimal risk is a little funny to me. Maybe I'm missing something but atm Protoss is definitely the race I find the most boring to watch, mirror or not. Why is that? Because it's where the least risk is involved, except maybe when it comes to mirror BO losses. I feel both Zerg and Terran have to work harder for most of their wins atm. Protoss never looks like it's really endangered unless their opponent is outplaying them significantly. And yes Tyler, Zerg players will tend do make more mistakes when there is about a hundred forms of pressure and timing attacks they can insta-lose to and need different responses to. I know it's something that seems very hard to grasp when you play a race that can safely pressure expand and tech at the same time and not really get punished for it, but it's pretty obvious to most everyone else.
The bottom line is, no matter how much sugarcoating Day[9] or Tyler do, I know thanks to my Xray vision that when Day[9] spawns as Zerg, he knows just like any semi-competent player who picks random just for shits and giggles that he's got an uphill battle ahead of him. Unless he's dropped in bronze lately... but if he's in diamond or anywhere above, he knows just as well as Idra the amount of pressure, allins and other fun stuff he has to deal with in order to get into the midgame on equal footing.
When it comes to MLG it's obvious Day[9] and JP don't really want to talk about it because it doesn't really look good to stir up drama for people who are your employers once in a while? As for how to handle it, someone else put it pretty well: if you have to lie / sugarcoat, do it by omission, aka just don't comment too much on it and move on. But going out of your way to say it's not really MLG's fault, that's just overdoing it. Not like they've had major stream issues in the past right? Yeah, ok. How many times are we going to make excuses for them? 2,3,4 more tournaments down the line? When does it stop being ok that a major player like MLG can't get their shit together? I don't know, but not early enough apparently.
In any case, it's definitely refreshing to hear IdrA in the middle of a lot of political correctness, both when it comes to balance discussions and MLG. Too much PC can quickly make a good show rather boring. So thanks IdrA for saving the day.
That is probably the longest whine-post I have read in like... ever.
Day[9] is totally right when he says that the game hasn't been figured out yet. There are probably a thousand solutions nobody has thought of yet. Just because nobody has thought of a solution to a certain problem doesn't mean that there isn't one. But instead of thinking a little harder and getting creative you rather go cry for mo... eh.. Blizzard.
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On April 07 2011 02:19 Dystisis wrote:Show nested quote +
As for Tyler I don't know what kind of chill pipe he's smoking but honestly talking about the refinement of protoss play when the whole race is mostly based on warpgate timing attacks negating defender's advantage then turtling into deathball in some way shape or form and all of this with very minimal risk is a little funny to me.
Read what you put down; Tyler was talking about Protoss build exploration and refinement in SC:BW, compared to the same for Zerg in SC2. Protosses needed to come up with a "wacky" strat which was not considered the norm to overcome the ZvP conceived imbalance of the time.
Now that I re-read, that's appears to be indeed what he meant. However, that's still unreasonable considering how long it took to see that kind of refinement in BW. In BW balance whining didn't make sense because patches weren't coming, ever. The situation is quite different now and it's also more difficult to overcome these issues.
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they shouldve done the whole MLG fiasco in 10 secs.
It sucked. We promise a better event next time... done.
I kinda expected this sugarcoating.. :/
I honestly think the MLG format sucks since its reaaaaaaaly complicated for me as a viewer to follow. You have like 4 different brackets etc.
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the whole "nananabooboo imbalance doesn't exist this game is new tralala" attitude as the only response to IdrA's serious arguments.
If just saying you can't win and protoss is stupid is a serious arguments then...well re-evaluate your definition dude, it's really not. He didn't get any serious responses because he didn't make an argument, he just complained.
EDIT: I haven't finished the cast yet so there's probably a point that they talk about ZvP that I haven't got to yet that'll make me look totally dumb. Even if there is, anyone who isn't blind can see IdrA's attitude was all wrong. For fucks sake, he let himself get so frustrated even when he was getting ahead the whole game that he quit when seeing hallucinations.
If that's not rock solid proof of the wrong mind set, I don't know what is.
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@garlicface
My "attacks" are just a little bit of reality thrown in after an episode of SotG that seemed a bit like cinderella land, nothing more.
I know how much Day[9] contributes to the community, and Tyler is very often a pleasure to listen to when he's discussing matchups. I like them both.
What I'm saying about Day[9] is basically this:
Day[9]'s opinion on balance is not right or wrong but flat out irrelevant because he approaches balance talk as a dogmatic issue.
As for Tyler I know he's smarter than to be in denial about IdrA's points, but I really have to lol when he acts like there's so much more to figure out in Zerg. They don't have that many different units and they don't have that many micro/ability options either. Compared to P or T, it's pretty cut and dry what you can and cannot do with Zerg at this point, especially after they've already been under a lot of pressure to deal with the ZvT matchup early after release.
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On April 07 2011 02:32 kar1181 wrote:
I'm not sure if it was because of the post dallas buzz but I felt this episode was quite a bit more lively and interactive than a lot of the past episodes.
Day9, and Tyler for example had a loooooot more to say than usual and Idra was very good chipping in here and there.
I have to say I've much preferred incontrol's contributions lately since he's taken to toning it down a bit, but the balance for this most recent episode was about perfect for me.
Good work =]
I agree, as an adamant follower of the SotG I must say that this episode was quite good indeed!
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One thing that I think SotG should be sure to cover is emerging trends in the metagame. I feel like I don't know what builds people were using in MLG. I know all about the Idra vs Huk match, but I don't know the status of the ZvP metagame based on the hundreds of other high-level ZvP games played this weekend. Were zergs using the new infestors? Were they effective? Is 4-gate still the standard in PvP? Is 2-rax dead? Events like MLG shape the metagame, but I feel like there was no report on these overall general trends.
Part of the reason I think this is so important is because a lot of balance arguments talk about the how the metagame is still developing, and how a new build may come along and shake things up. So, based on MLG, *is* the metagame still developing? I haven't seen much evidence of this. Even with the recent patch, it strikes me as pretty stagnant.
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On April 07 2011 02:09 Essentia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 01:27 Swarmed wrote:
Just a couple things. First off talking balance with Day[9] is like trying to discuss the many possibilities when it comes to the origins of life and the universe with a religious zealot. Day[9] refuses to talk about possible imbalance simply out of principle. Back in the day of 5rax reaper, when it was obvious to just about everyone even top Terran players, he was still arguing that Zerg hadn't "figured it out yet". And he will keep spouting that line until a balance patch comes and will probably still claim that it wasn't imbalanced and we just didn't give it enough time. When you think about it, it makes sense for his casting career, because he wants to work with Blizzard sanctioned tournaments and being known for balance complaints is a form of controversy that he probably just doesn't want to be a part of.
And all of that would be just fine and dandy, if he could just say he "doesn't want to comment on it" instead of trolling and/or making plain BS statements, as if there was a bajillion options that the pros haven't figured out yet in Zerg's weak early game. Ok Day[9], why don't you show us your revolutionary Zerg openings and midgame transitions that none of the pros have figured out yet and that actually work above silver league?
As for Tyler I don't know what kind of chill pipe he's smoking but honestly talking about the refinement of protoss play when the whole race is mostly based on warpgate timing attacks negating defender's advantage then turtling into deathball in some way shape or form and all of this with very minimal risk is a little funny to me. Maybe I'm missing something but atm Protoss is definitely the race I find the most boring to watch, mirror or not. Why is that? Because it's where the least risk is involved, except maybe when it comes to mirror BO losses. I feel both Zerg and Terran have to work harder for most of their wins atm. Protoss never looks like it's really endangered unless their opponent is outplaying them significantly. And yes Tyler, Zerg players will tend do make more mistakes when there is about a hundred forms of pressure and timing attacks they can insta-lose to and need different responses to. I know it's something that seems very hard to grasp when you play a race that can safely pressure expand and tech at the same time and not really get punished for it, but it's pretty obvious to most everyone else.
The bottom line is, no matter how much sugarcoating Day[9] or Tyler do, I know thanks to my Xray vision that when Day[9] spawns as Zerg, he knows just like any semi-competent player who picks random just for shits and giggles that he's got an uphill battle ahead of him. Unless he's dropped in bronze lately... but if he's in diamond or anywhere above, he knows just as well as Idra the amount of pressure, allins and other fun stuff he has to deal with in order to get into the midgame on equal footing.
When it comes to MLG it's obvious Day[9] and JP don't really want to talk about it because it doesn't really look good to stir up drama for people who are your employers once in a while? As for how to handle it, someone else put it pretty well: if you have to lie / sugarcoat, do it by omission, aka just don't comment too much on it and move on. But going out of your way to say it's not really MLG's fault, that's just overdoing it. Not like they've had major stream issues in the past right? Yeah, ok. How many times are we going to make excuses for them? 2,3,4 more tournaments down the line? When does it stop being ok that a major player like MLG can't get their shit together? I don't know, but not early enough apparently.
In any case, it's definitely refreshing to hear IdrA in the middle of a lot of political correctness, both when it comes to balance discussions and MLG. Too much PC can quickly make a good show rather boring. So thanks IdrA for saving the day. 100% correct. edit: btw we'll see if/when day9 starts to play full time what race he picks, im suuuuuuuuuuuuure it'll be zerg.
I seem to recall someone saying that Protoss is the race he has the least experience with or something back during the showmatch against Tasteless (which is the only time I've seen Day9 play sc2). He actually seems to like zerg a lot, so I wouldn't be surprised if that was the race he picked, actually. He certainly seems to want to play with infestors.
@Swarmed
You're stating opinions. Of course you're not wrong. I said your post lacked humility. Given that you persisted in claiming Tyler doesn't have as good a perspective as you do on Protoss and refinement, I'm going to stick to that.
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On April 06 2011 18:07 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 16:17 IShowUMagic wrote:
To be honest I feel like Day9 actually has bias toward the position that he takes, that the game isn't figured out and maybe zergs all just need to be more creative instead of crying imbalance. If he comes out and says that he thinks zerg is underpowered it may put off his terran/protoss playing audience. Plus, he wants to promote creative play, even if it is just catz, destiny and a bunch of gold players, because that's what his lower level (majority) audience want to see in the dailies. Wait, so you think Day9 is biased and professional players are not? Pro players want to win, and they preferably want to win as easy as possible - if they feel they can put pressure on people who balance the game to get even a tiniest advantage, they will. Add hordes of lower level players who can't win with the race because they're just bad will hop on the bandwagon, and it becomes really easy to create the illusion that the game is broken and the race is unplayable. Remember the period when Protoss players had really mediocre results (especially in Korea) and Genius said he would change his race unless it got buffed? It turned out that most Protoss players just a) Weren't good enough to compete for the top at the time. b) Didn't have the game as figured out as they do now. And note that Protoss never got buffed. The game most definitely isn't figured out. It's not even close. Just the early game in SC2 is even more complex (due to macro mechanics) and has a lot more options and timings than BW early game had. It's a long process, it has been that way in every Blizzard RTS. Only a few brilliant individuals revolutionized their race's gameplay in BW, some of it even took as long as half a decade after the last patch. Ultimately, the "game is broken" mentality will only hurt you as a player - just like it hurts Idra actually. You will be less good and less successful with that mindset, it's absolutely the wrong mindset for a player to have. It's not a player's job to consider game balance (players tend to be bad at game design anyway).
I never said pro players aren't biased, of course they are. Pretty much everyone in the community is, except for random players maybe. Don't put words in my mouth.
Also, as was mentioned, protoss did get buffed. Easier scouting with hallucinate and decreased observer cost and decreased phoenix build time. There had to have been a reason for these buffs and I wish I knew what they were, because if protoss needed them then, then zerg sure as hell needs them now. I'm not even talking anything crazy here, just give queens extra spawning energy or something so we can transfuse. Zerg just needs a stable early game.
On April 06 2011 22:59 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 16:17 IShowUMagic wrote:
To be honest I feel like Day9 actually has bias toward the position that he takes, that the game isn't figured out and maybe zergs all just need to be more creative instead of crying imbalance. If he comes out and says that he thinks zerg is underpowered it may put off his terran/protoss playing audience. Plus, he wants to promote creative play, even if it is just catz, destiny and a bunch of gold players, because that's what his lower level (majority) audience want to see in the dailies.
Also, even though I do think zerg is at a disadvantage, I don't want to hear commentators talking about it because it can take away from the games. Nobody wants to see a game end and hear Day9 say, "yeah too bad forcefield is so OP or IdrA could've totally held that 4gate."
While I will agree that the late game is far from figured out, there are only so many things you can figure out in the early game where you only have a few options available to you, and that's where zerg is really weak. The fact of the matter is, if some one who has only watched the game and never played, and came to a pro and asked, "Which race should I play? I want to be able to troll practically all my games but still get reasonable results without epic skills," the answer would be, "Well don't play zerg lolol." It is at the very least disingenuous to claim that the position of not making assumptions about game balance makes one biased. I would argue that his position is to aim for the absence of bias. "A cognitive bias is the human tendency to make systematic errors in certain circumstances based on cognitive factors rather than evidence. Such biases can result from information-processing shortcuts called heuristics. They include errors in judgment, social attribution, and memory. Cognitive biases are a common outcome of human thought, and often drastically skew the reliability of anecdotal and legal evidence. It is a phenomenon studied in cognitive science and social psychology." -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias - On Judgement and Decision Making Day9's position, then, is to avoid errors in judgement by delaying judgement - not to permanently judge the situation as being equitable. If we had seen the top of the scene be entirely protoss and terran, I am sure Day9 would not cling to the position that zerg was fine. His point is that people have made Zerg work in the past, people are making zerg work now (#2 in the recent GSL was a zerg), so wait and see if that continues to not be the case as the game becomes more "figured out". Referring to this as bias is akin to referring to devout moderates as extremists, in that they are exceptional in their propensity to avoid the extremes. If you perceive society to be composed of various forms of extremists, then the semantics of this statement does not betray the logical misstep occuring here. In reality, all you've done here is to attach a label to a viewpoint you disagree with which exempts you from considering it.
Ok, whatever, I won't use the word bias then. I think that Day9 has motivation to not take a position on the subject of imbalance. I don't really think that's a huge leap considering his position as the daily master, his relationship with blizzard and his general role as a caster.
Listen, my whole point is this: having the opinion that zergs just haven't figured it out yet is fine. Having the opinion that complaining about balance is defeatist and therefore bad for players is fine. However, it is NOT ok to have these opinions no matter what. If you have these opinions, you have them for different reasons, ie:
1. You think the game is balanced
2. You've simply accepted that the game is what it is and balance isn't our concern
Reason 1 is fine, and I completely respect that opinion (while disagreeing). That's because you wouldn't have this opinion for this reason if you thought the game was imbalanced.
Reason 2 is not OK in my book because your opinion won't change if the game is imbalanced or not. If you fall into this category, your reasoning is completely arbitrary. For example, would it be ok to declare terran underpowered if marines spawned with 5 hp? You could still say, "have you tried walling off with a couple marines and going 3rax reaper marauder with lots of turrets?" That would be stupid though, because even though it might be viable, having 5 hp marines would be broken as hell.
It's Idra's fucking JOB to find solutions, and some progress has even been made, ie what we saw at MLG with 15 pool 16 hatch with 2 drones and burrow move roach builds. Do you really think, after out-playing the shit out of huk in as many games as he did, that Idra could really say what he says about protoss with a straight face if he didn't believe it? That's why it's pretty enraging for zerg players who search and search for solutions day in and day out to hear a bunch of non-zerg players ask bullshit like, "Well have you tried infestor expand???" It's belittling and I haven't been able to figure out if its a huge community troll or not yet.
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On April 07 2011 02:21 Uhnno wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 01:27 Swarmed wrote:
Just a couple things. First off talking balance with Day[9] is like trying to discuss the many possibilities when it comes to the origins of life and the universe with a religious zealot. Day[9] refuses to talk about possible imbalance simply out of principle. Back in the day of 5rax reaper, when it was obvious to just about everyone even top Terran players, he was still arguing that Zerg hadn't "figured it out yet". And he will keep spouting that line until a balance patch comes and will probably still claim that it wasn't imbalanced and we just didn't give it enough time. When you think about it, it makes sense for his casting career, because he wants to work with Blizzard sanctioned tournaments and being known for balance complaints is a form of controversy that he probably just doesn't want to be a part of.
And all of that would be just fine and dandy, if he could just say he "doesn't want to comment on it" instead of trolling and/or making plain BS statements, as if there was a bajillion options that the pros haven't figured out yet in Zerg's weak early game. Ok Day[9], why don't you show us your revolutionary Zerg openings and midgame transitions that none of the pros have figured out yet and that actually work above silver league?
As for Tyler I don't know what kind of chill pipe he's smoking but honestly talking about the refinement of protoss play when the whole race is mostly based on warpgate timing attacks negating defender's advantage then turtling into deathball in some way shape or form and all of this with very minimal risk is a little funny to me. Maybe I'm missing something but atm Protoss is definitely the race I find the most boring to watch, mirror or not. Why is that? Because it's where the least risk is involved, except maybe when it comes to mirror BO losses. I feel both Zerg and Terran have to work harder for most of their wins atm. Protoss never looks like it's really endangered unless their opponent is outplaying them significantly. And yes Tyler, Zerg players will tend do make more mistakes when there is about a hundred forms of pressure and timing attacks they can insta-lose to and need different responses to. I know it's something that seems very hard to grasp when you play a race that can safely pressure expand and tech at the same time and not really get punished for it, but it's pretty obvious to most everyone else.
The bottom line is, no matter how much sugarcoating Day[9] or Tyler do, I know thanks to my Xray vision that when Day[9] spawns as Zerg, he knows just like any semi-competent player who picks random just for shits and giggles that he's got an uphill battle ahead of him. Unless he's dropped in bronze lately... but if he's in diamond or anywhere above, he knows just as well as Idra the amount of pressure, allins and other fun stuff he has to deal with in order to get into the midgame on equal footing.
When it comes to MLG it's obvious Day[9] and JP don't really want to talk about it because it doesn't really look good to stir up drama for people who are your employers once in a while? As for how to handle it, someone else put it pretty well: if you have to lie / sugarcoat, do it by omission, aka just don't comment too much on it and move on. But going out of your way to say it's not really MLG's fault, that's just overdoing it. Not like they've had major stream issues in the past right? Yeah, ok. How many times are we going to make excuses for them? 2,3,4 more tournaments down the line? When does it stop being ok that a major player like MLG can't get their shit together? I don't know, but not early enough apparently.
In any case, it's definitely refreshing to hear IdrA in the middle of a lot of political correctness, both when it comes to balance discussions and MLG. Too much PC can quickly make a good show rather boring. So thanks IdrA for saving the day. This piece of rant is pretty golden. Many assumptions are made, mixed with half truths and full lies. I'm quoting it because it deserves to be read. That is how preposterious I think it is. Great X-ray visions when you don't even know that Day9 has multiple accounts, each for one race. Each and everyone can refine their play, regardless of the race they are playing. While IdrA is fantastic to have on the show, he is definitely biased in terms of balance. Incontrol has it right when he said that IdrA has given up the ZvP match-up as a whole. It may be 'refreshing' to hear comments from a pro regarding the balance, but it's by no mean right or unbiased. And actually, ranting about Protoss OP is not refreshing at all. Just like how Day9 was right to make fun of IdrA's rage leave vs hallucination. But it the end you might just be a troll and arguing about this is pretty much pointless.
Everyone is going to be biased to their favorite race, but its admirable to try to remain objective.
However the problem often times is that when you attempt to have any kind of debate about the whole Zerg problem and bring up points, there are going to easily be counter points.
If the intention of the response was to refute and dismiss, its hard to follow up with any counter statements once your initial response was defeated.
Its often easier to simply say "well I don't like talking about balance" or "I don't want to talk about balance".
I think people like seeing IdrA on SotG not necessarily because he is outspoken, but because he is simply zerg.
SotG doesn't have many zergs on often, its mostly protoss players discussing protoss balance and strategies. Zerg players would like to see more zerg on SotG and while IdrA might not be everyone's first choice, he is better than having yet another protoss.
SotG doesn't actively attempt to balance out a panel because its not even within their scope, but its often frustrating for many zerg players that their views aren't brought up and simply skipped over due to the fact that none of the panel plays zerg at the level that the other players might play protoss. They probably are just getting who is available at the time and the people who are available just so happen to always mostly be protoss.
Simply put, there are way too many panel regulars who are Protoss and zerg players love when there is finally a zerg panel member on there who can speak for them. Its frustrating to see a zerg get shut down and dismissed as well even after they might bring up good points. IdrA does have a self-defeatist attitude, but that doesn't also mean that his points were incorrect. You can't make it a point to discuss balance on SotG but then when it comes to zerg discussion with a zerg, you just shut him down and troll him by telling him to go mass infestor.
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