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On April 24 2012 00:03 FunnyPicture wrote:
Well, a quick sampling makes it clear that people from the US seem to prefer MLG. Not a big shock really, most Americans tend to be patriotic about their scene even though they don't really have any good players. I really enjoyed DH, they did so many little awesome tweaks and improvements to the stream and tournament that I really feel they pushed the envelope. And Nony; if you really just worry about the quality of games and of the stream itself, why don't you just study some replays?
Where to get high level replays where people are really trying tho?
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On April 23 2012 23:34 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote:
I enjoyed watching DH more than watching MLG.
Quality of games isn't everything. A big portion but not everything.
MLG--------------------DH
8 players---------64 players
HuK ---------------Many foreigners
Silence------------Crowd
Tiptop quality---Decent quality
Best casters----Good casters
I also get annoyed by the we-are-all-friends atmosphere at MLG. Takes the tension away a bit.
MLG had a 2v2 tournament though. Best shit I saw in a long time. Really? I thought that was a large part of why people liked Homestory Cup, the friendly atmosphere.
You are right, but HSC is all about the atmosphere and fun and alcohol :D where it doesnt really matter how you play, the most entertaining cames from the casts etc. MLG on the other hand is all about the competition of the worlds best players and it takes a lot away when everything seems to be soooo friendly
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On April 23 2012 23:34 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote:
I enjoyed watching DH more than watching MLG.
Quality of games isn't everything. A big portion but not everything.
MLG--------------------DH
8 players---------64 players
HuK ---------------Many foreigners
Silence------------Crowd
Tiptop quality---Decent quality
Best casters----Good casters
I also get annoyed by the we-are-all-friends atmosphere at MLG. Takes the tension away a bit.
MLG had a 2v2 tournament though. Best shit I saw in a long time. Really? I thought that was a large part of why people liked Homestory Cup, the friendly atmosphere.
The DH atmosphere was amazing. In the finals you really were overwhelmed with the crowds and casters passions. MLG on the other hand felt very stale and forced.
Grubbys casting and analysis was superb however, unfortunately tasteless's hoarse stuttering and pretence at knowing the current meta really ruined alot of the casting for me. the 2v2's was fun though
People bring up the quality of the games as a reason why MLG is more relevant, however the one base all-ins on day 1 were absolutely disgusting and really made for tedious quick games with analysis which was comparable in length to the games themselves. Maybe its because im European too but DH was tiers above MLG in terms of enjoyment and Apollo+ wolf made an excellent casting combo
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On April 24 2012 00:03 FunnyPicture wrote:
Well, a quick sampling makes it clear that people from the US seem to prefer MLG. Not a big shock really, most Americans tend to be patriotic about their scene even though they don't really have any good players. I really enjoyed DH, they did so many little awesome tweaks and improvements to the stream and tournament that I really feel they pushed the envelope. And Nony; if you really just worry about the quality of games and of the stream itself, why don't you just study some replays?
sampling? Your data, sir, that you make these assumptions from.
I think people are just arguing semantics.
Dreamhack was probably the better "Event".
MLG having the better "tournament" seems to be the point of contention, but people are mixing the two as part of their argument.
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It just would have made more sense for MLG to produce their spring arena in Korea. Less jet lag for the players, less money for plane tickets. Just rent an apartment and the GSL film crew and you are set.
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On April 23 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote:
Grubbys casting and analysis was superb however, unfortunately tasteless's hoarse stuttering and pretence at knowing the current meta really ruined alot of the casting for me. the 2v2's was fun though
Tasteless getting by on his cult of personality is getting pretty sad at this point  I used to love him but he just doesnt have a clue.
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On April 24 2012 00:13 Thrombozyt wrote:
It just would have made more sense for MLG to produce their spring arena in Korea. Less jet lag for the players, less money for plane tickets. Just rent an apartment and the GSL film crew and you are set.
That sounds like it would cost more money in the end, not less. You cannot just run a major event with 1080p stream, a full stage and casters out of an appartment without some set up time. Also, the GSL film crew and their equipment is not for rent. Also, they would need PCs to play, cast and stream from. Thats not even going into the language barrier.
So, MLG should not run their event in Korea even though there are a lot of Korean players. They already have things set up there.
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On April 24 2012 00:24 bmml wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote:
Grubbys casting and analysis was superb however, unfortunately tasteless's hoarse stuttering and pretence at knowing the current meta really ruined alot of the casting for me. the 2v2's was fun though
Tasteless getting by on his cult of personality is getting pretty sad at this point I used to love him but he just doesnt have a clue.
Everyone shitting on Tasteless because it's popular is getting pretty sad at this point It's really annoying but I wish the whiners in the community would find something new!
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On April 23 2012 22:59 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 22:12 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 23 2012 22:01 ceaRshaf wrote:On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering. By this standards IPL 4 is the best event that there ever was. Sorry but a tournament is also about the mood and production value. I'm not denying that other people have other interests. I pointed some of them out. But a tournament isn't about anything really. There's a competition going on and it can be presented in any number of ways that prioritize different interests. Mood and production value are important to a lot of people. My two biggest priorities are game quality (best players in the world playing interesting games) and stream quality (clear video and audio). So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2. I understand your perspective, but you're in a very small minority. Most people don't have the time or the talent to learn the game well enough to really appreciate the subtleties of a certain build. It's really condescending to imply that you have to be a pro player to be a fan of SC2. The people who paid 30$ for DH tickets aren't fans of SC2? Not only is it condescending, it's also wrong. No, I'm not good enough at SC2 to typically enjoy watching a VOD without commentary and without knowing who the players are, just watching the game. There's more that goes into creating an enjoyable viewer experience than just the most minor details that make some players stand out to you. Good casters add to the enjoyment, a good atmosphere at a live event adds to the enjoyment and so does a good storyline (Korean vs foreigner in his home town). There's nothing wrong with that and it also doesn't mean that the quality of play is irrelevant. It's obvious that the starting field at DH was a lot weaker than at MLG and that was a minus for DH, the other parts made up for it though. I don't think it was the best event ever, mostly because of the players and the games, but it was still more enjoyable for me than MLG. If I go see a live music performance and there's a good atmosphere then I'm going to have a much better time than I would listening to a technically more proficient performance at home on my stereo, even if it's an instrument that I play well enough to appreciate the difference. It's about having an experience, not just being a robot looking at someone's performance. Music isn't just about technique and SC2 is entertainment just as much as it is a game about minor details.
Totally agree. Tyler's sarcastic comments are just showing off his elitism. I don't blame him, really. It's a product of the direct communication between fans and pros e-sports has grown up with. The only reason you don't see it rear its ugly head in the context of other sports is because they lack this communication.
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On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering.
What can be bigger than SC2 on this forum? German football? Cross-country skiing? I am intrigued!
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On April 24 2012 00:30 Angel_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 00:24 bmml wrote:On April 23 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote:
Grubbys casting and analysis was superb however, unfortunately tasteless's hoarse stuttering and pretence at knowing the current meta really ruined alot of the casting for me. the 2v2's was fun though
Tasteless getting by on his cult of personality is getting pretty sad at this point I used to love him but he just doesnt have a clue. Everyone shitting on Tasteless because it's popular is getting pretty sad at this point It's really annoying but I wish the whiners in the community would find something new!
If it makes you feel any better I dislike wolf and day9 too, its just that tasteless has stopped following the game apart from the games he actually casts.
Also since when is it popular to shit on casters, all I ever seem to get for doing so is whining SC2 era TLers telling me how wrong I am.
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On April 23 2012 22:28 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 22:19 demitap wrote:
Sorry, but sometime you really make me feel like you're sad person, DH Finals was so much more exciting than mlg, mlg was cold, sad and really not better than any weekly cup this time, while DH had this amazing crowd, more players and at least foreigners fought back against koreans( I'm not trying to bash huk, but he got Roflstomed this mlg, humiliated) And HuK would likely have roflstomped just about anyone at DH. This is what Tyler is talking about, the quality of play was much better at MLG....if you preferred DH that's great! Just admit to yourself that you're not interested in watching the best games, you're looking for something else.
There's nothing to "admit". You're making it sound like people need to confess that they're doing something bad and they're living in some kind of denial.
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I think ultimately which event people preferred came down really to one fundamental thing: Which players you prefer to follow.
If you prefer following the foreigner scene because you want to want to see the foreigner vs. Korean dynamic, of course you’d prefer DH. At DH, there are new players trying to showcase themselves as well as established foreigners trying to step up to the few Koreans sent to the event. DH also scored a huge storyline win with a foreigner victory, something that will come and go, and cannot really be controlled by the individual tournament. Puma gets takes out in the group stages, then Nerchio takes out Hyun, Ret beats Genius and Thorzain defeats both Monster and Polt on his way to taking the event. What more could you ask for?
If you prefer following the GSL scene, then you likely enjoyed MLG more, as you knew the players and where they currently where. Could either Heart of Ganzi, both capable mid-level Korean terrans prove themselves to be truly championship caliber? MC has been making a comeback recently. Was he going to show us a preview of his resurgence, which he could follow through in GSL? Parting and MKP had their GSTL fiasco, how would their rematch go? Huk had recently dropped out of GSL again, can he prove that he truly belongs with the GSL players? Was DRG capable of overcoming his recent ‘block’ after falling out of code S, losing MLG events twice in a row and not performing in the GSTL semi-finals?
I saw pieces of both tournaments, but ultimately I enjoyed MLG a lot more. Aside from the players, the raw quality of the games, was significantly better at MLG. The casting itself was only slightly better for MLG, but the post-casting analysis with pro-player insight into the games made a big difference for me. In addition, I very much enjoyed the friendly atmosphere MLG gave off. I liked how all players were enjoying themselves in the middle of some very high-level competition. The 2v2 stuff was great (and hilarious), as were the interviews with the various players, casters, and organizers there. Being an avid follower of the GSL, the storyline was there for me for MLG too.
The main advantages DH had were in the foreigner vs Korean storyline and live audience. I wasn't really watching DH much until the final rounds though, while I was tuning in consistently for most of the MLG games. I was, however, constantly checking the DH results on liquidpedia to see who won on the second day. DHs other major advantage, live crowds, don't do much for me unless I'm at the event. The setup looked like it was awesome for the people there, but that doesn't really translate into much for me at home.
What both MLG and DH did right was the top-tier production values. They were fundamentally different styles, but both of them were very good. MLG went with a very clean, very refined studio-style production while DH showcased it's live as a spectacle.
MLG right now is closer to GSL, much more closely aligned to the hardcore SC2 fans. DH is more closely aligned to the casual fans. DH gets more people interested in SC2 as a spectator sport with free HQ streams as well as the foreigner vs. korean storyline for people not familiar with the scene. As some fans start to move more toward the hardcore side of the spectrum and game quality becomes more important they are likely to start watching some MLG or GSL.
So ultimately, I think the part of the scene you follow really dictates which event you enjoyed more. I think people who follow the korean scene closely were more inclined to purchase the MLG arena and enjoyed it immensely. People who follow the foreigner scene closely were more inclined to watch DH and enjoyed it immensely. Right now, there appears to be room for both events to do what they've been doing, and serving two slightly different customer bases in the same market isn't a bad thing.
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8748 Posts
On April 24 2012 00:03 FunnyPicture wrote:
Well, a quick sampling makes it clear that people from the US seem to prefer MLG. Not a big shock really, most Americans tend to be patriotic about their scene even though they don't really have any good players. I really enjoyed DH, they did so many little awesome tweaks and improvements to the stream and tournament that I really feel they pushed the envelope. And Nony; if you really just worry about the quality of games and of the stream itself, why don't you just study some replays?
The games that are available as video only tend to be the better games. For example if I only watched replays, I would never see a GSL game. And the FPView streams are way better than faux-fpview in replays. Also it's very rare that a replay has some information that I need which the video does not provide. And finally, because of this SOTG show. It's bad enough that we have a history of not watching a lot of the tournaments that we want to talk about. If I never watched any tournament that I knew would eventually release replays, I'd be even worse.
If I could, I would download videos of the games and watch those. That's what I did in BW. That's what everyone did on eSTRO. We would download the videos and watch the games at 1.5x or 2x speed. I already made a post suggesting to release videos with torrents and an RSS feed instead of having VOD archives on web sites. No tournament will do it because they want you visiting their site or their stream channel. I was hoping that paying for their content would be enough for them to provide a better delivery system but apparently not so far.
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On April 23 2012 22:35 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 22:28 Zorkmid wrote:On April 23 2012 22:19 demitap wrote:
Sorry, but sometime you really make me feel like you're sad person, DH Finals was so much more exciting than mlg, mlg was cold, sad and really not better than any weekly cup this time, while DH had this amazing crowd, more players and at least foreigners fought back against koreans( I'm not trying to bash huk, but he got Roflstomed this mlg, humiliated) And HuK would likely have roflstomped just about anyone at DH. HuK was off but I definitely think there were 4-5 people at MLG that had a good chance of winning DH. In fact if you put all 8 MLG players into DH, then the chance of one of them winning DH is like 90% haha
Thats true, but it doesn't in any way invalidate DH as a more enjoyable tournament (I am not inferring that you are making that point).
I'd rather watch a tournament with a 10 foreigners and 6 koreans in the top 16 than one with 2 foreigners and 14 koreans. I don't care if the quality of games drops down by a few % by manipulating this, the quality of entertainment skyrockets.
It's a balancing act - sure to get the best games you need to involve koreans, and the more koreans the better the games on average will be in terms of skill and tactical execution. However I would rather watch a foreigner battle with a korean and have real emotion and passion should they win than see two automatons battle it out.
A lot of people have a problem with that, but I have no issues with stating the simple fact that getting behind a player and REALLY feeling for them and wanting them to win trumps any kind of objective measurement like skill. It's just perfect that last night's contrast between DH and MLG made the point perfectly.
Ask yourself why people rabidly support lower league and school teams in sports, instead of only watching top league professionals, and that is my point.
If I want to watch the world's best sc2 games I will buy a GSL season ticket.
If I want to see an event where players I truely support, and with real pride, take the fight to a selection of good koreans then I will tune in to a DH/MLG/IEM - except MLG arena denies me this.
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On April 24 2012 00:03 FunnyPicture wrote:
Well, a quick sampling makes it clear that people from the US seem to prefer MLG. Not a big shock really, most Americans tend to be patriotic about their scene even though they don't really have any good players. I really enjoyed DH, they did so many little awesome tweaks and improvements to the stream and tournament that I really feel they pushed the envelope. And Nony; if you really just worry about the quality of games and of the stream itself, why don't you just study some replays?
Everyone is patriotic about there own scene. The biggest supporters of Dreamhack are Swedes like i dont understand how europeans dont think there nartionalistic or patriotic but Americans are. Half of the discussion on this site is nationalistic bullshit from everyone. Swedes and Europeans prefer european players and european tournament and will then tell Americans how much better they are compared to American Tournaments and players. The biggest supporters of a certain player are always people from the same country as the player. If anything i would say Americans are less patriotic when it comes to starcraft since we are so bad at it we have to find other players to cheer for. We seem to enjoy tournaments with a lot of koreans more then europeans do as evident by the fact that IPL4 and MLG traditionally have alot of koreans in them
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Shouldn't the quality of the games themselves be irrelevant in a debate about which event did a better job? I don't think many would disagree that MLG had higher level games. But I think most would agree that DH's production and atmosphere elevated the "lower quality" games above the MLG games. I felt the hype the same way I did during the first GSL final, and the final at Blizzcon. It was hype and it was powerful.
Don't you guys want to see as high level games, AND as high level production as possible? It is not like you have to choose one of those.
We are discussing a show after all. We are discussing entertainment. Why do we even have teams, interviews, bother to mention playernames instead of watching replays of blue microbot vs red microbot (that would shame even MKP's micro), if we didn't care about all the stuff around?
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On April 24 2012 00:30 Angel_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 00:24 bmml wrote:On April 23 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote:
Grubbys casting and analysis was superb however, unfortunately tasteless's hoarse stuttering and pretence at knowing the current meta really ruined alot of the casting for me. the 2v2's was fun though
Tasteless getting by on his cult of personality is getting pretty sad at this point I used to love him but he just doesnt have a clue. Everyone shitting on Tasteless because it's popular is getting pretty sad at this point It's really annoying but I wish the whiners in the community would find something new!
Noones doing it because its 'popular'. If you watched the GSL early 1-2-3 open seasons at the beginning of sc2 it was clear tasteless was activly playing sc2 at some level ( not sure how good he was at that time ). Now its very evident that artosis is the crutch of the duo and is soley responsible for providing detailed knowledge of the game and mid-high level strategies...
Everytime I hear tasteless say "ooh im gonna steal that build" or "I cant wait to try that" it just seems to be an outright lie. The community was incredibly critical about Moletrap and other such casters like Orb and whatnot for making mistakes or lack of game knowledge or just being unpleasant/obnixious to listen too, personally I find day9's extremely loud and dominant style in duos unpleasant aswell. But its clear that the free-pass tasteless seems to have been given is fast running out.
Being a caster requires many things; articulation, knowledge, etc etc but most importantly a pleasant voice... Compare some of the old BW casts he did with what you heard at MLG and its unbelievable, physically painful to listen to. Several times I had to mute the cast.
Your trying to dismiss valid concerns and needed competition from casters by giving a sub-par caster arbitrary immunity. Try atleast consider why a large section of the community is becoming increasingly critical of Tasteless. If he was to devote himself to the game that his job is based off of, im sure his knowledge would increase aswell as the communities attitude towards him. Stopping smoking and other addictions might help too
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8748 Posts
On April 24 2012 01:22 resilve wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 22:35 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 23 2012 22:28 Zorkmid wrote:On April 23 2012 22:19 demitap wrote:
Sorry, but sometime you really make me feel like you're sad person, DH Finals was so much more exciting than mlg, mlg was cold, sad and really not better than any weekly cup this time, while DH had this amazing crowd, more players and at least foreigners fought back against koreans( I'm not trying to bash huk, but he got Roflstomed this mlg, humiliated) And HuK would likely have roflstomped just about anyone at DH. HuK was off but I definitely think there were 4-5 people at MLG that had a good chance of winning DH. In fact if you put all 8 MLG players into DH, then the chance of one of them winning DH is like 90% haha Thats true, but it doesn't in any way invalidate DH as a more enjoyable tournament (I am not inferring that you are making that point). I'd rather watch a tournament with a 10 foreigners and 6 koreans in the top 16 than one with 2 foreigners and 14 koreans. I don't care if the quality of games drops down by a few % by manipulating this, the quality of entertainment skyrockets. It's a balancing act - sure to get the best games you need to involve koreans, and the more koreans the better the games on average will be in terms of skill and tactical execution. However I would rather watch a foreigner battle with a korean and have real emotion and passion should they win than see two automatons battle it out. A lot of people have a problem with that, but I have no issues with stating the simple fact that getting behind a player and REALLY feeling for them and wanting them to win trumps any kind of objective measurement like skill. It's just perfect that last night's contrast between DH and MLG made the point perfectly. If I want to watch the world's best sc2 games I will buy a GSL season ticket. If I want to see an event where players I truely support, and with real pride, take the fight to a selection of good koreans then I will tune in to a DH/MLG/IEM - except MLG arena denies me this.
Yeah I have no problem with people saying what they like to watch. I don't like people saying that one event is better than another when each event had different strengths. I don't like people proclaiming that one type of event is the way all events should be. Event organizers are clearly going for different things and appeasing different crowds. It's true that there is theoretically one formula that is the most popular one. And that just means it's best in the "most viewed" or "most liked" category, but not necessarily best in a bunch of other categories. So if we sought out that formula and only had events according to that formula, it would disappoint a lot of people. Variety is going to win out so people need to get used to there being successful events that they don't prefer (or even enjoy at all).
I find it especially ridiculous when DH runs a tournament that is much more like MLG's championship events and yet people make comparisons to MLG's 8 man arena event just because they're on the same weekend. Guess what? Sundance gets it. He's purposely running different kind of content supplemental to the championship events. Inviting 8 players to a business's office that's been converted into a studio with no live audience is pretty much the exact opposite of MLG's normal events and DH's Stockholm Open.
So when the DH fanboys start talking a bunch of shit about how good their event was, the people who quite enjoyed and even preferred MLG's event are going to get defensive. People act like it's preposterous to think that MLG's Arena was better and yet according to my personal preferences it's preposterous to think DH's event was better. If everyone could simply support the things they like and be honest about the strengths and weaknesses of events, we could have a much nicer discussion. I'm appalled by people saying DH's event was amazing when its first day was one of the shittiest things I've ever watched. People talking up DH's event as amazing are clearly not being objective and accurately descriptive.
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On April 24 2012 01:30 Ravnemesteren wrote:
Shouldn't the quality of the games themselves be irrelevant in a debate about which event did a better job? I don't think many would disagree that MLG had higher level games. But I think most would agree that DH's production and atmosphere elevated the "lower quality" games above the MLG games. I felt the hype the same way I did during the first GSL final, and the final at Blizzcon. It was hype and it was powerful.
Don't you guys want to see as high level games, AND as high level production as possible? It is not like you have to choose one of those.
We are discussing a show after all. We are discussing entertainment. Why do we even have teams, interviews, bother to mention playernames instead of watching replays of blue microbot vs red microbot (that would shame even MKP's micro), if we didn't care about all the stuff around?
Yea exactly! Why not have both? We are trying to make the best event possible!! :D
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