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On August 17 2010 05:51 Surrealz wrote:
While I agree with you on all of those points, you did not mention anything at all about bigT calling Idra the "a move zerg" and CONSTANTLY BMing other amazing players. He is annoying people so much that Chill, a huge member of TL, decided to BM bigT with his BIggerT stream.
Most people are agreeing idra overreacted, but nothing is being done on the basis of WHY idra didn't want BigT casting. Honestly, BigT is rude. He doesn't belong in these huge tourneys, and if I was a top notch player like Idra, I wouldn't want some rank 70 diamond guy telling me I'm an A move zerg while I'm playing.
And he was lagging idra. Its a special circumstance. The guy is in Korea. He is doing so much for esports its not even funny just by being an amazing US player over there.
Let me say that's inaccurate. You are suggesting that IdrA didn't want casters because it was BigT. The reality is that IdrA has been denying ANY caster who wants to broadcast his match while playing in National ESL. A pattern of behavior that started prior to last night.
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On August 17 2010 05:46 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Harassment out of the game is as serious as in-game. The situation is still that you're insulting referees or admins, something which under no conditions should be allowed. Wherever it happens it has the same impact and the same result of undermining ones authority. If you want to play in a tournament you are to treat the referees with respect. Mistakes do happen, this is something people need to learn to respect as well. If everyone insulted here on TL every time a mistake was made nobody on the TL staff would still be working here. Most of us are adults and most of us would like to see StarCraft flourish as a professional sport. You can't go and insult people every time they make a stupid decision.
I haven't seen quotes on the exact situation, there are of course exceptions such as where the referee is taunting or downright insulting the player himself so my post does not specifically apply to this situation. It's simply meant to show my opinion on situations like this in a more general setting.
About casters being in games there are many things to consider. First of all the rule that a player must allow a caster is a good rule. The trick is in the enforcement of it. This is a good rule because players are unpredictable and you are dealing with 400 unpredictable potentially loose cannons. An organization must at all time keep the power of deciding whether people should be allowed to watch in their own hands. sometimes players are reasonable and only complain when there is lag, other times players behave like kids and do unreasonable things such as complaining about lag when there is none, simply for the fact that they are tilted or dislike a certain obs or caster. Tournament rules have to be made in such a manner that they account for the worst possible situation. Then when situations arise a tournament organizer may opt not to apply the rules because he feels this is more fair.
So when you establish the original rule about players being forced to allow casters is a good one we arrive at the core of the problem in this tournament. That is a player with a subjectively bad attitude being faced with a potentially unreasonable referee who can refer to the rules to protect himself. This all could have been avoided if players would simply treat people with more respect. That does not mean he was wrong in his complaints at all do not misunderstand my point, but for large organizations such as the ESL it is very hard to completely control every single link in their company structure. In this giant of an organization you are basically guaranteed people are going to make mistakes and if players don't care about being decent others they should start caring about being decent in order to help themselves.
So well thought out, I am in complete awe.
All of this is perfectly true, and especially important and good because it applies to a general situation.
I wish TL wasn't so rampant with sycophancy, it seems to cloud a lot of people's judgment.
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On August 17 2010 05:53 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 05:42 Surrealz wrote:
Honestly, I have no desire to watch the rest of your tournament because of the way BigT is, and your BLATANTLY OBVIOUS hate for idra. Honestly, he is probably in the top 3 best SC2 players in the world and we have shoddy casters like BigT BMing him constantly and then you guys jumping the gun.
Just saying this again, iCCup TV will be casting tonight. I could care less to get dragged into this ESL / IdrA drama, but if you want to see a PROFESSIONAL cast from a group that has a long running track record of being on of the best organizations in Starcraft please tune into iCCup TV tonight. This is all pretty crazy but iCCup TV only cares about bringing you high level professional matches with professional commentary and we will continue to do this regardless of all the drama going on otherwise.
Oh I will be raelcun, you guys are the best casters on the scene right now. I love everything Iccup does, and it is always done in a professional manner.
Don't think we forgot about your marathon stream at the end of the beta btw xD
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On August 17 2010 05:53 Lighioana wrote:
Care to explain the context to us? Because what I read didn't look at all to be taken out of context.
A few of us were in IRC and BigT came in wondering what the whole BiggerT thing was about. We poked a little bit of fun at him. He joined in saying things sarcastically (e.g. "I AM THE WHOLE REASON IDRA WAS BANNED!") for laughs.
Someone took the later chunk of someone giving him a hard time along with his sarcastic comments.
IdrA himself said it wasn't any fault of BigT.
I find it likely that BigT probably contributed to the situation, but he's hardly the one to jump all over for this.
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On August 17 2010 05:34 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 05:30 Grond wrote:On August 17 2010 05:21 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 17 2010 05:19 LawGQ wrote:On August 17 2010 05:13 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 17 2010 05:10 LawGQ wrote:
Idra got the shaft. This cup was completely unprofessional. Idra's a dick, but I would be too if the admins, casters, and organization of the cup looked like it was run by a 2 year old.
BigT really deserves to be removed as a caster from the cup all together if they are going to ban Idra. And you would deserve to get the swift kick out. Just because the ESL messed up doesn't justify IdrA messing up either. And yes, BigT is a terrible caster. Idra just returning the same amount of professionalism that was showed to him. Half of the cup was a joke, (the other half was fine, NP gj guys), but really they just got the level they were giving. Again, that's not proper justification. If it was, athletes and progamers would be going off left and right at perceived injustices. There's a zero tolerance policy in almost all professional events for a reason. Officials are punished for baiting players in just about every sport I can think of. ...So? That has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion about IdrA's BM. Or are you continuing to try and justify IdrA's BM with "two wrongs make a right"? Show nested quote +You could write a huge letter apologizing for the issue, but you cannot blame IdrA for what happened.
Take the responsability. Quite the hypocritical sentences there. How can you say this and not expect IdrA to take responsibility for being BM?
Did you read the logs? There is a whole lot more to this than BM. Your "two wrongs make a right" statement is absurd. So in your opinion casters and admins should be allowed BM but not players?
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On August 17 2010 05:56 SmoKim wrote:
sometimes it feels lik Nazgul is the only person here with some common sense and rationality
probably because you're infatuated by him there are tons of posts by people that make perfect sense.
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On August 17 2010 05:53 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 05:42 Surrealz wrote:
Honestly, I have no desire to watch the rest of your tournament because of the way BigT is, and your BLATANTLY OBVIOUS hate for idra. Honestly, he is probably in the top 3 best SC2 players in the world and we have shoddy casters like BigT BMing him constantly and then you guys jumping the gun.
Just saying this again, iCCup TV will be casting tonight. I could care less to get dragged into this ESL / IdrA drama, but if you want to see a PROFESSIONAL cast from a group that has a long running track record of being on of the best organizations in Starcraft please tune into iCCup TV tonight. This is all pretty crazy but iCCup TV only cares about bringing you high level professional matches with professional commentary and we will continue to do this regardless of all the drama going on otherwise. User was warned for this post
lol, doing this post in this circumstance proofs how wrong you are about your professionalism :D
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On August 17 2010 05:56 midway wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 05:51 Surrealz wrote:
While I agree with you on all of those points, you did not mention anything at all about bigT calling Idra the "a move zerg" and CONSTANTLY BMing other amazing players. He is annoying people so much that Chill, a huge member of TL, decided to BM bigT with his BIggerT stream.
Most people are agreeing idra overreacted, but nothing is being done on the basis of WHY idra didn't want BigT casting. Honestly, BigT is rude. He doesn't belong in these huge tourneys, and if I was a top notch player like Idra, I wouldn't want some rank 70 diamond guy telling me I'm an A move zerg while I'm playing.
And he was lagging idra. Its a special circumstance. The guy is in Korea. He is doing so much for esports its not even funny just by being an amazing US player over there.
Let me say that that's inaccurate. You are suggesting that IdrA didn't want casters because it was BigT. The reality is that IdrA has been denying ANY caster who wants to broadcast his match while playing in National ESL. A pattern of behavior that started prior to last night.
Hey I have a question. If the 2 players and caster all agreed to not cast, will the players still be penalized? Was Idra penalized with 2 points because of the way he went about it, or simply because a caster was not present?
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I still don't understand how people can be justifying what Idra said/done (if he said/done such things), by stating that : ''Well he had the right because ESL sucks and were mean with him''
To be honest, I dont even know that much about the situation (except reading this topic), and I am not taking sides here.
I am merely trying to talk about the basic concept. You cannot justify someones actions by saying that someone else has also done some wrong. Let me just take a very (very) dumbed down example, if I go to work and my boss tells me that I do not work today, while my name was clearly on the schedule (and whether or not he says he was the one that made an error on the schedule), me calling him out saying he needs to get better at organization would still not be acceptable.
People are mixing up two different issues in a single topic. As the ESL done any wrong and did they correctly stand up to say they have done some wrong is one topic, while the actions of Idra and if they should be acceptable or not (which I think should be pretty easy to answer, a player participating in an event or organization should be held responsible for his actions at all time), is a totally different one.
Also, side note, the guy stating that ''Idra is a top player so he should be allowed to say whatever he wants, while the B-class player should learn to shut up'' easily has the worse post in this whole topic. I mean, seriously, the fact that you are good should never ever make you immune to being held responsible for your wrong doing. (and if he did ask his friend to tell the ESL that they are fucking idiots, I do believe that they have every right to penalize him)
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On August 17 2010 05:58 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 05:56 SmoKim wrote:
sometimes it feels lik Nazgul is the only person here with some common sense and rationality probably because you're infatuated by him there are tons of posts by people that make perfect sense.
I know i am
/swoon
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I hope ESL will be making some rules for casters, letting people like BigT run rampant and create chaos everywhere he goes kicking up a real shitstorm without even providing a good cast for you in return cant go on.
On second thought without BigT we wouldn't have BiggerT so its all good. Chill fighting~~
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I imagine that in the future it will be super-standard for tourney admins to provide a list of accepted casters for their event. It's kind of a new concept and you could really put the blame on Blizzard for making these problems likely to happen - however, it is what it is.
As Huk mentioned in the other thread, popular players get tons of messages from people claiming to be casters. People will try to say what the player wants to hear to get into the game, and at some point the player will just filter everyone out. Just make some clear rules and a short list of official casters. Of course others will still be able to cast, but only if the players agree.
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On August 17 2010 05:57 Grond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 05:34 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 17 2010 05:30 Grond wrote:On August 17 2010 05:21 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 17 2010 05:19 LawGQ wrote:On August 17 2010 05:13 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 17 2010 05:10 LawGQ wrote:
Idra got the shaft. This cup was completely unprofessional. Idra's a dick, but I would be too if the admins, casters, and organization of the cup looked like it was run by a 2 year old.
BigT really deserves to be removed as a caster from the cup all together if they are going to ban Idra. And you would deserve to get the swift kick out. Just because the ESL messed up doesn't justify IdrA messing up either. And yes, BigT is a terrible caster. Idra just returning the same amount of professionalism that was showed to him. Half of the cup was a joke, (the other half was fine, NP gj guys), but really they just got the level they were giving. Again, that's not proper justification. If it was, athletes and progamers would be going off left and right at perceived injustices. There's a zero tolerance policy in almost all professional events for a reason. Officials are punished for baiting players in just about every sport I can think of. ...So? That has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion about IdrA's BM. Or are you continuing to try and justify IdrA's BM with "two wrongs make a right"? You could write a huge letter apologizing for the issue, but you cannot blame IdrA for what happened.
Take the responsability. Quite the hypocritical sentences there. How can you say this and not expect IdrA to take responsibility for being BM? Did you read the logs? There is a whole lot more to this than BM. Your "two wrongs make a right" statement is absurd. So in your opinion casters and admins should be allowed BM but not players?
Absolutely not. Not only did I not say that anywhere, but you assuming that continues to indirectly try to justify IdrA's BM with another's BM.
The end point is that they should ALL be punished. It doesn't matter what happened, there is no justification for insulting the people who are actually putting in all the work to make the tournament happen. Of course, there's no justification for terrible casters/admins/etc... I've repeatedly been addressing the fact that people keep trying to deflect the issue of IdrA being unprofessional by just saying that others were as well. So what? That doesn't have one fucking ounce of influence on IdrA's mistake. I've been solely talking about IdrA's BM and the fact that punishment is 100% deserved. We all know that the casters and admins were bad and deserve punishment, there hasn't been any controversy over that. What I've been referring to is IdrA because apparently some people think it's ok to justify his bad actions with others' bad actions.
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On August 17 2010 05:53 Hapahauli wrote:
What exactly have you answered? All you have admitted to is "confusion" and "drama," when there's plenty of evidence that ESL staff botched the current situation pretty badly.
Most of us are looking for you to acknowledge the mistakes of your subordinates and casters, instead of dismissing it as mutual "confusion."
What more do you want me to say? We made mistakes and we are doing our best to resolve them in the most proper way we can. I do think its unreasonable to put the entire burden of last night on National ESL's Admin staff. We are trying to help casters to cast matches so the fans can watch the games. Is that our responsibility, "no". But it does make the experience for all more enjoyable.
As for the issues with the players reporting matches incorrectly and IdrA's travel, what more do you expect from any organization? There's always issues and drama, heck we are all human and love drama. But I'm confident in my staff and National ESL that we have done the best we can to correct and fix issues to limit their chances of recurring and new problems to arise.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On August 17 2010 06:00 Chi wrote:
On second thought without BigT we wouldn't have BiggerT so its all good. Chill fighting~~ On August 16 2010 18:53 BiggerT wrote:
We ride together.
We die together.
Bad boys for life.
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ESL showing, yet again, that they are run by an unprofessional crew.
they want a big name, but do not have the admins to back it up.
I seem to recall other people being owed money by ESL besides the little $50 sums owed to a few players mentioned in this thread.
I, for one, will not be supporting the ESL. They have proven to be unprofessional...and there are plenty of much better "leagues" etc. around and cropping up =]
Stop comparing this situation to the NBA or the NFL. This is neither. Account for your admin's actions.
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On August 17 2010 06:02 midway wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 05:53 Hapahauli wrote:
What exactly have you answered? All you have admitted to is "confusion" and "drama," when there's plenty of evidence that ESL staff botched the current situation pretty badly.
Most of us are looking for you to acknowledge the mistakes of your subordinates and casters, instead of dismissing it as mutual "confusion." What more do you want me to say? We made mistakes and we are doing our best to resolve them in the most proper way we can. I do think its unreasonable to put the entire burden of last night on National ESL's Admin staff. We are trying to help casters to cast matches so the fans can watch the games. Is that our responsibility, "no". But it does make the experience for all more enjoyable. As for the issues with the players reporting matches incorrectly and IdrA's travel, what more do you expect from any organization? There's always issues and drama, heck we are all human and love drama. But I'm confident in my staff and National ESL that we have done the best we can to correct and fix issues to limit their chances of recurring and new problems to arise.
well this post goes a long way
i can only speak for myself but the bolded part here is something along the lines of what i was hoping for originally. not for me, of course. for you. it looks much more professional to directly admit faults than to try to act like they didn't happen.
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On August 17 2010 05:26 Hapahauli wrote:I came in here expecting some resolution, transparency or accountability... silly me. What exactly does this post even resolve? It refuses to acknowledge that Certain ESL Staff Members jumped the gun and banned IdrA last night. It took the the entire night for them to resolve this issue. This post doest even acknowledge the appallingly short notice IdrA received for his rematch, or official "casters" who BM'd one of the players and got him banned when said player refused to let him cast. Pitiful.
This about sums up how well that event was run.
Seriously, though -- get a different caster that isn't BigT. His complete lack of professionalism and poor quality of commentating have been at least as bad as the things Idra did.
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I feel like every issue here could have been solved by casting replays instead of actual games.
The first issue, when he submits his win, ask for replays? Since he thinks that his opponent didn't show up, he wouldn't have replays and you could have checked on the situation.
The second issue, Idra complains about lag, you could have just casted the replays. No one want to see lag. You keep saying that the match has to be streamed because it's good for the audience but I for one don't want to see lag.
What's wrong with casting replays? As long as the results don't get out beforehand, I'm sure no one minds. I liked how the Day[9] and Tasteless showmatch was done with replays and then they interviewed the two after.
Also come on, pay the dude. I think there's a zero tolerance for any kind of mistreatment from a organization that owes you money.
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EPT
