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On August 17 2010 07:47 midway wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 07:42 naonao wrote:No, no you haven't. The issue we want addressed is why Idra was given that additional penalty point. The first everyone has accepted is due to not letting casters in and mostly everyone agrees that it is an appropriate action given the rules. You claim this point was awarded because of what happened on his side of the bracket(having to replay games) and not due to any other reasons. You said Later a separate issue happened that had nothing to do with IdrA besides the fact that he was playing on the same side of the bracket. However this does not reflect what is shown on your website along with what your other admins stated last night. On the website it says 1 Point Repeated Offence
Unsportsmanlike conduct throughout the cup ingame against players and casters and against esl on forums This can easily be seen hereWe want accountability for what it was that caused this point. And you have dodged every question that has asked for this. So until you answer this the issue will not be closed. "IdrA then received an additional PP for his verbal abuse of both admins and fellow players. IdrA has been previously warned for his behavior in the tournament including his verbal harassment in earlier cups." It was in the initial post. There's been numerous posts of mine and others saying those details won't be released and why. Hopefully that clears it up for you.
However there is no evidence that Idra verbally abused admins and fellow players in this tournament until after the PPs were awarded. The first instance of BM i witnesssed from Idra was when he stated that the admins were fucking idiots due to him having to replay a match and this was publicized after he was awarded his PP. The only thing you have going for you that Idra actually BMed is his reputation. The fact that your not willing to disclose his BM makes it seem like there is none and your just trying to cover your ass.
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On August 17 2010 07:45 sAfuRos wrote:
ITT:
How to try and misconstrue posts of others in your favor.
If you wanna play the Nazgul card, he said he supports IdrA
ESL is so unprofessional, its pretty fucking funny. Damage control failing at its best
Edit: go away nazgul, i was supposed to post first
Wasn't misrepresenting his post. His defense of broadcasting matches is valid and was saying I agreed with it. I wasn't talking about the specific IdrA comment but the concepts he put forth in the post about streaming as a whole.
As for IdrA's specifically, I answered that just above.
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On August 17 2010 04:33 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 04:31 midway wrote:On August 17 2010 04:29 travis wrote:
No, it wasn't "seen" that way, it's explicitly what was said. There was confusion among everyone involved, including some admins. IdrA's trip to Gamescom confused the situation further. If you fuck up, say that you fucked up. Man up. I edited my posts to show some quotes explicitly saying that they were banning Idra. There is no confusion about what was said. I am glad you guys went back on the decision but don't try to cover up what happened with lies. Hell, if an admin or 2 were idiots and messed up... just say that. Say what actually happened. Just don't try to lie to minimize it. Seriously I love the ESL, I love anyone who contributes to e-sports. But Integrity... please
So I read 15 pages and couldn't find an answer to this. Did they side step this or did I just miss it? If two of your admins say Idra's done, then a couple hours later another admin says Idra's not banned cause there was "confusion", what's stopping someone new tomorrow posting Idra's banned again cause there was more confusion today. When liquid fucked up and didn't award Artosis the win, they came out and said yeah we fucked up and here's why (running a tourney's stressful, no one was available and that's our fault, etc.) they didn't just go "yeah, 2 of our admins on separate incidents were confused and didn't mean what they typed"
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On August 17 2010 06:54 midway wrote:
You can accuse me of arrogance all you want and it is frustrating at lack understand of the simple point. We are doing this FOR YOU!
National ESL is forcing casting and getting people streams to watch give you a better chance to see the game we all love. I'm not trying to attack anyone or create problems. My point is simple; its in everyone's best interest to cast these matches.
.....
The goal here is to make SC2 better, more popular and increase awareness of the sport.
Nobody wants you to run a shoddy tournament that doesn't pay. Just quit and go back to CS. Let people who can actually organize and run a sc2 tournament do so. SC2 would be better and more popular with more interested people without your issues and problems and drama.
It's drama like this that makes sponsors wary of..sponsoring. It's bad organization like this that creates drama. It's not as if other people won't do sc2 and you guys are the only ones doing it. If you really cared so much, just stop and let actual competent people do it.
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penalty points = sweet for idra rage
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What I don't get you don't get this with any other pro player out there but always stuff been said about idras bm etc. Idra and people say its like its ok and stand up for him. He needs to grow up and be bit more professional and take he's temperament more seriously or he's always only ever gonna be know for throwing he's rattle outa the cot all the time.
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On August 17 2010 07:50 rally_point wrote:
You know who IdrA remind me of? Ok this is just a curious analogy so no one get angry for this analogy, but I believe IdrA to esports is like Muhammad Ali to boxing.
He has undeniable world class skill. He's representing a minority in the pro gaming scene (not just Caucasians, but also the seemingly underpowered Zerg). AND... last but not least, he speaks his mind. Some may call this BM. But really, in my honest opinion, its his straightforward personality speaking out.
OK it isn't a perfect analogy but I thought I'd throw it out there lol.
Anyways, from reading the posts and the article on ESL's site, I seem to get the feel that ESL attitude toward IdrA is a result of personal reasons / anger. Maybe he insulted ESL in an inappropriate way. Maybe ESL is just abusing their power over the tournament and, whether they know it or not, are not providing optimal conditions for players. We can't truly tell because we don't know the details. But one thing is for sure - IdrA is one of eSports most charactered and skilled players, with a ton of following. I hope ESL and IdrA will work something out.
Trashtalk prefight is a good thing for a sport. It's not my personal cup of tea but I know that it's mostly an act for those fighters/players doing that. It's definitely something that adds to entertainment sports such as boxing, MMA and SC. My history on Ali isn't the most informed but I do watch a lot of combat sports and it is in no way comparable to Idra's attitude. There's pre-fight trashtalk and post-fight camaraderie and respect which is exactly how it should be. These guys (afaik including Ali) will hug each other and thank each other after the match is done. If they lose they congratulate their opponent and show him their respect for outperforming him. See where this is going?
On August 17 2010 07:54 midway wrote:
And we didn't penalize him in previous $100 Cups. But as this is his 3rd $100 Cup and he continues to not follow the rules we had to step in and establish the rules considering in three weeks we will have the Group Stage with the top 16 players. This is a decision as a staff we had already made going into the event and the enforcement of this rule was something no one besides IdrA has had a problem with. Many players from South American and Korea haven't expressed the same issue nor denied casting.
Also I'd like to note IdrA never approached anyone from National ESL about the issue. Instead of agreeing to cast later matches or working with us at all he simple refused all the way along.
Fair enough, was mostly just responding to the part that had my name in it. It seems like you guys had anticipated this scenario beforehand which speaks in your favor.
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On August 17 2010 07:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Most of the time if a tournament is hosted then under normal conditions they should allow a player to play without casters/obses if the lag is very bad. Playing condition should be very high on the list of things tournaments should care about. However! Tournaments do rely on broadcasts. They can suffer an occasional unforeseen lag scenario and still be fine. It really sucks if it's in the final but replays can still be used. If however lag appeared in every single game, then this tournament will lose it's right to exist because they can't broadcast anything during their promised live casting hours. Think of a 16-man invite with 5 players participating from Asia all telling the casters to leave. Tournament popularity=dead. Keep this in mind.
If, by rules, they allow a tournament to be open to players from Asia this means there is a good chance these players will claim lag in every single game, and thus they won't have a single game of the Asian players casted. If this is how it is going to be this leads to one very simple change: the exclusion of Asian players. Tournaments will realize they can't perform up to par when Asian players tell their casters to leave the games. If we keep up with the 100% absolute attitude of player always deciding this will be the end of live-broadcasted international tournaments. That is a worst case scenario for tournament host, player, and fan.
As a fan of the sport, I am only interested in who's the better player. I am totally ok with EVERY game being casted from a replay, if it means we get to see who is the more skilled player, not who has the least lag. I don't know if my opinion completely reflects the community at large but I have a feeling it's close. I think this idea that a tournament is dead if you don't have live casts is asinine.
I think fans are much more understandable then you think. Fans are the reason these tournaments are possible, and I'm pretty sure if you took a poll we would be willing to wait a little longer to watch the stream in order ensure that skill and not latency determined the results.
Don't get me wrong, live casts are fun, but if the powers at be are unwilling to allow a player to play at his best, then we can just stop calling these tournaments a form of competition.
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IMO the only reason to cast live is if you are having a live event with people attending in person. Online events can easily be cast as replays (and should be imo).
It removes potential lag affecting the players, it gives the caster less things to worry about going wrong, and gives the viewer a better experience.
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On August 17 2010 07:55 naonao wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 07:47 midway wrote:On August 17 2010 07:42 naonao wrote:No, no you haven't. The issue we want addressed is why Idra was given that additional penalty point. The first everyone has accepted is due to not letting casters in and mostly everyone agrees that it is an appropriate action given the rules. You claim this point was awarded because of what happened on his side of the bracket(having to replay games) and not due to any other reasons. You said Later a separate issue happened that had nothing to do with IdrA besides the fact that he was playing on the same side of the bracket. However this does not reflect what is shown on your website along with what your other admins stated last night. On the website it says 1 Point Repeated Offence
Unsportsmanlike conduct throughout the cup ingame against players and casters and against esl on forums This can easily be seen hereWe want accountability for what it was that caused this point. And you have dodged every question that has asked for this. So until you answer this the issue will not be closed. "IdrA then received an additional PP for his verbal abuse of both admins and fellow players. IdrA has been previously warned for his behavior in the tournament including his verbal harassment in earlier cups." It was in the initial post. There's been numerous posts of mine and others saying those details won't be released and why. Hopefully that clears it up for you. However there is no evidence that Idra verbally abused admins and fellow players in this tournament until after the PPs were awarded. The first instance of BM i witnesssed from Idra was when he stated that the admins were fucking idiots due to him having to replay a match and this was publicized after he was awarded his PP. The only thing you have going for you that Idra actually BMed is his reputation. The fact that your not willing to disclose his BM makes it seem like there is none and your just trying to cover your ass.
Why do you what them to show evidence to you since this got nothing to do with you? Do you even know if Idra got a problem with the penalty point he got for it? Only if Idra got a problem with this should they show evidence to him.
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Being live does not matter, why not just cast from replay? Live only matters in person... while watching live..
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The caster (BigT) clearly caused an issue when there wasn't one. He shouldn't abuse his friendship with an ESL admin to force someone to restart a game because he can't keep track of upcoming games himself. It really shows how childish some casters and some admins act and how overzealous they are.
Give respect to the players, if a caster misses a game because they fail to track everything then, leave the players alone.
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wow i just turned my comp on for the first time today all hyped about having the chance to play idra in a bo5 finals.. then this =/
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The mood of this thread is disturbing.
I know the crappy part of tl, of which im a part, but this feels like something new, something worse.
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I'm not sure what the big deal is. ESL can ask participants to dance around and pee in their pants as part of their rules if they want and ban anyone who doesn't do it. It's their tourny and their rules. They are still going to get lots of participants (even with somewhat dubious rules like forced casting).
I do think that simplifying the rules would go a long way to make things understandable and run smoother than it did last night. All I know is that there was quite a bit of waiting around.
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What channel are these matches being broadcasted on?
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On August 17 2010 08:10 aqui wrote:
The mood of this thread is disturbing.
I know the crappy part of tl, of which im a part, but this feels like something new, something worse.
Which wouldnt happen if the somebody could say something other then "I addressed everything that I am going to address, but not the part that everybody really wants to know about."
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On August 17 2010 08:08 Sreypech wrote:
The caster (BigT) clearly caused an issue when there wasn't one. He shouldn't abuse his friendship with an ESL admin to force someone to restart a game because he can't keep track of upcoming games himself. It really shows how childish some casters and some admins act and how overzealous they are.
Give respect to the players, if a caster misses a game because they fail to track everything then, leave the players alone.
No he didn't. He knew perfectly well when IdrA was starting and had been trying to get IdrA to add him to the game. He only asked for the restart when IdrA went on and started the game without him in clear violation of the rules, for which IdrA has been appropriately penalized.
He may get himself mixed into a lot of drama and the way he was talking to IdrA certainly didn't help anything, but he's not a big enough jackass to ask someone to restart a game just because he wasn't there when it began.
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Midway, I thank you for remaining professional (I am not being sarcastic, you are holding up better than I would) despite some of the things being said, but I am curious as to whether your casters and staff are held to the same standards you hold your participants. Taken out of context or not, the things that BigT said were insulting to IdrA. I agree that two wrongs do not make a right regardless of whether that is what the particular player is known for, but professionalism is a quality to be displayed by the participants, staff, and any others participating in an event in any way. I am not questioning moral character. What you say to friends and such outside the public view is your buisiness. When a member of your administration says something like
+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2010 14:03 esl-beef wrote:ShadowDrgn: Strifeco never responded to Jobless' messages. By the time we saw it, it was after two rounds had been played. IdrA: If you don't want to play, that's fine. Your lack of respect towards casters, ESL staff, players, and sponsors makes you an insult to pro gamers. You said it best... I hope you enjoyed you stay at National ESL's IEM, you're done for the season.
this to anyone involved with your organization there is a breakdown of policy. And if there is no breakdown of policy, one has to wonder at the quality of an organization that allows public beratement of players, regardless of whether or not such an action is actually taken (though in this case it obviously was). Calling a player an "insult to pro gamers" and a joke within the same post by a so called staff member of your organization reflects poorly upon all of you.
The chat log as posted by another member in the other thread
+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2010 17:21 aers wrote:
Honestly.
[ 12:28:45 ] [ BigT ] i have
[ 12:28:51 ] [ BigT ] official news as to the banning of idra!
[ 12:29:16 ] [ BigT ] he received 2 points for not allowing me to cast and the other 2 points for the BM afterwards... all of which were handed down directly from me :D
[ 12:40:43 ] [ @aers ] bigt
[ 12:40:49 ] [ @aers ] you went to the admins
[ 12:40:50 ] [ @aers ] and whined
[ 12:40:55 ] [ @aers ] that idra whouldnt let you cast his game
[ 12:40:57 ] [ @aers ] because of lag
[ 12:41:00 ] [ @aers ] and you dont see
[ 12:41:05 ] [ @aers ] why people are a bit upset with your attitude?
[ 12:41:06 ] [ @aers ] at all?
[ 12:41:18 ] [ BigT ] hmm...
[ 12:41:44 ] [ BigT ] i mean, i whined for a little bit because they said i was casting it
[ 12:41:49 ] [ BigT ] but then i moved on to other games lol
[ 12:42:14 ] [ BigT ] well depends what u describe as whining
[ 12:42:20 ] [ BigT ] "wtf beef, i thought i was casting idra?"
[ 12:42:22 ] [ BigT ] lol
[ 12:42:27 ] [ BigT ] "am i casting or not?"
[ 12:42:31 ] [ @aers ] so
[ 12:42:31 ] [ BigT ] "i want to go cast other games"
[ 12:42:34 ] [ @aers ] idra tells you
[ 12:42:38 ] [ @aers ] "i dont want you casting because of lag"
[ 12:42:40 ] [ @aers ] and you tell the admin
[ 12:42:42 ] [ @aers ] "wtf am i casting idra"
[ 12:42:45 ] [ @aers ] ?
[ 12:42:47 ] [ @aers ] instead of
[ 12:42:48 ] [ BigT ] i have no comment on the admins xD
[ 12:42:51 ] [ @aers ] "idra doesnt want me to cast due to lag"
[ 12:42:56 ] [ BigT ] they are just trying to do whats right
When those 2 "refusal to have a caster" points were given out did the admins even know what was going on at all?
For someone with "official" news, he sure does display a low level of professionalism.
If you want to be taken as seriously internationally as the korean programers are, changes need to be made. The word transperancy is being thrown around, and justly. With such a high profile problem, absolute transperancy is required so there is not a misconstruing of what has happened as there has been here numerous times.
You say you are doing this for us, and we really are thankful (or some of us are at least), but we do not want the international pro SC2 scene affiliated with shady decisions and unprofessional administrators.
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On August 17 2010 08:16 Voyager I wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 08:08 Sreypech wrote:
The caster (BigT) clearly caused an issue when there wasn't one. He shouldn't abuse his friendship with an ESL admin to force someone to restart a game because he can't keep track of upcoming games himself. It really shows how childish some casters and some admins act and how overzealous they are.
Give respect to the players, if a caster misses a game because they fail to track everything then, leave the players alone. No he didn't. He knew perfectly well when IdrA was starting and had been trying to get IdrA to add him to the game. He only asked for the restart when IdrA went on and started the game without him in clear violation of the rules, for which IdrA has been appropriately penalized. He may get himself mixed into a lot of drama and the way he was talking to IdrA certainly didn't help anything, but he's not a big enough jackass to ask someone to restart a game just because he wasn't there when it began.
He is a big enough jackass, if you watched his stream he kept harassing Idra then cried to an ESL admin when he didn't get his way. He doesn't act like a professional caster in anyway whatsoever. He subsequently spent the the whole game of Idra's that he did get to cast, insulting him calling for Bunny to be the Idra killer instead of just casting the game.
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EPT
