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On August 20 2010 11:21 RxN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 03:34 JPSke wrote:
I'd just like to point out that in a Terran heavy field on maps that were described pretournament as being very unfavorable to Zerg that three of the four Zergs advanced, with three very different styles. I believe that while some people have valid complaints it is clear that the huge imbalance that is accepted by so many here simply does not exist. I think that while tweaks can and will be made in the future, the fact that for so many people this is the focal point of their current time with the game is detrimental to the game as a whole. The view of Zerg as a race is a negative one at the moment, and I do not believe that reputation is deserved. It is clearly more than capable of being competitive in the current environment, and hopefully all this negativity does not feed into a continued decline in the population of Zerg in the game in general. Play the race that appeals to you, try to improve, and generally speaking things will work how they are supposed to work. I think people need to take into account that IdrA and Dimaga probably have the best mechanics of anyone in the tournament so it's not surprising that they advanced. Why should one tournament where zerg is doing well mean there's no imbalance? Should we just conveniently ignore the fact that terrans have been cleaning up most of the recent tournaments?
Let's also not discount the fact that in tournaments, the Metagame has a much larger role to play than usual. These guys have been playing against each other a great deal, they also have access to each others replays and as such they can prepare for the likely openings and the counters for them.
Let's also not forget that IdrA and Dimaga are widely considered some of the best players in the non Korean scene.
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On August 20 2010 12:55 hdkhang wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 11:21 RxN wrote:On August 20 2010 03:34 JPSke wrote:
I'd just like to point out that in a Terran heavy field on maps that were described pretournament as being very unfavorable to Zerg that three of the four Zergs advanced, with three very different styles. I believe that while some people have valid complaints it is clear that the huge imbalance that is accepted by so many here simply does not exist. I think that while tweaks can and will be made in the future, the fact that for so many people this is the focal point of their current time with the game is detrimental to the game as a whole. The view of Zerg as a race is a negative one at the moment, and I do not believe that reputation is deserved. It is clearly more than capable of being competitive in the current environment, and hopefully all this negativity does not feed into a continued decline in the population of Zerg in the game in general. Play the race that appeals to you, try to improve, and generally speaking things will work how they are supposed to work. I think people need to take into account that IdrA and Dimaga probably have the best mechanics of anyone in the tournament so it's not surprising that they advanced. Why should one tournament where zerg is doing well mean there's no imbalance? Should we just conveniently ignore the fact that terrans have been cleaning up most of the recent tournaments? Let's also not discount the fact that in tournaments, the Metagame has a much larger role to play than usual. These guys have been playing against each other a great deal, they also have access to each others replays and as such they can prepare for the likely openings and the counters for them. Let's also not forget that IdrA is the best SC2 players ATM and Dimaga is the best player on European server...
/Fixed.
Someone kept trying to link me to Slush's b.net ranking profile (2nd in the US/World?)... anyway, apparently, since he's ranked so high, ZERG ARE FINE!!! -.-
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I watched Dimaga vs someone in IEM, where he got off a successful nydus and killed every. single. scv. he then went to harass with banelings/lings but had walled off with barracks and had somehow teched to banshees and ended the game.
that kind of makes me rage
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On August 20 2010 13:52 SteakhouseXT wrote:
I watched Dimaga vs someone in IEM, where he got off a successful nydus and killed every. single. scv. he then went to harass with banelings/lings but had walled off with barracks and had somehow teched to banshees and ended the game.
that kind of makes me rage
Yea, you could tell just how pissed off Dimaga was when he lost that game. And in the post-match interview he kept saying how he was "disappointed" that he lost that game even after he killed every scv. If any other race lost even like half of the workers it'd be pretty much GG, but nope 2 orbital commands lol.
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I think zerg would really benefit from a third early game unit. I'm starting to think that lurkers might have fit into the game fairly well. There's a bit of design overlap between it and the spine crawler. But it would give zerg a siege tool and stronger map control.
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I think in a few months everyone will laugh at the old assumption that Terran > Zerg. By then everyone will have realized these things:
1) Mutas > Thor
2) Ultras > everything but air
3) Bling > Bio
4) Defilers rule them all
Terrans have no good answer to well microd mutas since Thors only break even. By going Thor/Marines you open yourself up to banelings. And when the Thor/Marines are dead mutas clear up the siege tanks.
Currently Terran have a slight advantage midgame but that is only because Zerg players do not realize how weak Thor are vs. Mutas. Soon that will change and Zerg midgame will be equal to or stronger than Terrans. Come late game Ultras with some defiler and baneling/zergling backup are much stronger than anything Terran can muster.
So I say:
Zerg > Terran.
I will quote this post in a few months to prove that I was right.
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Once again, if the imbalance was as pronounced as many are blindly accepting it to be Zerg could not be competitive in high level tournaments.They are more than competitive. Players are still adjusting to the game at this early stage, and chances are in two or three weeks we will have a completely different view of how the matchups currently work. People just need to calm down and give the game time to settle before overreacting.
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On August 21 2010 02:40 MockHamill wrote:
I think in a few months everyone will laugh at the old assumption that Terran > Zerg. By then everyone will have realized these things:
1) Mutas > Thor
2) Ultras > everything but air
3) Bling > Bio
4) Defilers rule them all
Terrans have no good answer to well microd mutas since Thors only break even. By going Thor/Marines you open yourself up to banelings. And when the Thor/Marines are dead mutas clear up the siege tanks.
Currently Terran have a slight advantage midgame but that is only because Zerg players do not realize how weak Thor are vs. Mutas. Soon that will change and Zerg midgame will be equal or stronger to Terrans. Come late game Ultras with some defiler and baneling/zergling backup are much stronger than anything Terran can muster.
So I say:
Zerg > Terran.
I will quote this post in a few months to prove that I was right.
Definitely not a Zerg player, post your Sc2ranks page. It even says in the help screen thats thors own Mutas.
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On August 21 2010 02:40 MockHamill wrote:
I think in a few months everyone will laugh at the old assumption that Terran > Zerg. By then everyone will have realized these things:
1) Mutas > Thor
2) Ultras > everything but air
3) Bling > Bio
4) Defilers rule them all
Terrans have no good answer to well microd mutas since Thors only break even. By going Thor/Marines you open yourself up to banelings. And when the Thor/Marines are dead mutas clear up the siege tanks.
Currently Terran have a slight advantage midgame but that is only because Zerg players do not realize how weak Thor are vs. Mutas. Soon that will change and Zerg midgame will be equal or stronger to Terrans. Come late game Ultras with some defiler and baneling/zergling backup are much stronger than anything Terran can muster.
So I say:
Zerg > Terran.
I will quote this post in a few months to prove that I was right.
my god there is so many idiotic and wrong things in this post I don't even know where to begin lol... are you being serious or is this a joke?
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Yes I am serious. Zerg have a slight scouting problem early and Terran has a small timing window where they are stronger but apart from that the meta-game is changing and Zerg will soon be equal to or stronger than Terran without any balance patch. I just hope that Blizzard realized this; a Terran nerf now will really screw up game balance in the long run.
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I don't agree that ZvT is "Broken" per say but there are issues and they are probably attributed to the early stage of the meta game. But there are a lot of issues that need to be cleared up.
1) This "X" counter "Y" unit imbalance people are throwing around is ridiculously bogus and the small advantage one unit might have over another is not the game breaking issue.
2) There is a difference between "Broken" and "Balance". The game is NOT "Balanced" in the way people are tossing it around as; if anything it isn't meant to be balanced: Z is not suppose to be equally strong vs T and vice versa at every point in the game. It would just be ridiculous. Blizzard would just make one race called TerZergToss and every match-up would be a mirror if they wanted perfect balance at all times.
3) I think the issue with T being strong vs Zerg is due to a few things and most of them aren't because of something being "Broken". One is the plethora of opening Terran has against Zerg. I think right now most Zergs even those at the top haven't fully developed yet. For example the Mass Reaper opening that recently hit the meta game caught most Zerg players off guard (I mean who saw a Reaper and then 3 and then 8 coming) and the popular Zerg consensus was "ZOMG NO REASONABLE WAY TO STOP". And now we are seeing totally reasonable counters come out. IrDA vs Saren just yesterday in the ESL going 3-4 Queen/Speedling with amazing Speedling control totally shut it down and for the more incapable players fast 1 base Roach play. And this is something that just hit main stream Terran strategy like 2 weeks ago and people are already putting what was once OP down.
4) The mid game push with Tanks is the other issue that seems to be of popular contention. It probably has something to do with the maps currently being played in ladder. At the point where cross-positions matter in such a great deal the lack of space in spawning adjacently definitely has something to do with Tank strength that I concede might be Broken where the Terran timing push takes 1-2 minutes less to pull of due to spawning positions is something of an issue.
5) Because of the current strength of Terran mid-game vs Zerg I don't think the meta game is developing in the way it should. Because Zerg players haven't fully adapted to the variability of Terran in the early game the evaluation of the mid to the late game can't be evaluated reasonable as Broken. For example once Zerg players start getting extremely solid openings, I'm saying 1-2 years in if not more, the strength of Terran mid-game would probably wane in response. So blindly nerfing something right now is definitely not the right thing to do as it could be breaking something later on that people didn't originally see.
6) I don't think Zerg players are actually using Infestor play as well as it will be used in the future. You can see the strength of it starting to burgeon in some of the more creative players such as TLO in his Speedling/Infestor/Fast creep spread play. A lot of you forget that in BW, during release, there was a lot of issues that people considered to be game breaking in units that "Did the damage" (in a way the X counters Y issue). As the game developed people grew past that supposed imbalanced and started using spell-casters a lot better to create a the balance. The cornerstones of Top BW play was good Arbiter use for Toss and Dark Swarm was critical for Zerg players.
Also I don't fully agree with MasterAsia although some of his points are good. He has many unique points that he brings up for the reason behind Terran being overpowered but he is being somewhat ridiculous. Not all of the reasons he points out are why Terran is broken. Fix point number 1 and point 2-9 might not be a problem fix point 2 and 1 and 3-9 might not be an issue. If all 9 points were to be "fixed" you wouldn't have a balanced race you would have a quadriplegic kid strapped to a block of concrete in a lake trying to play SC2.
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This is all well and good but when is someone going to discuss the fact that P is getting owned by both of these races?
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I suggest everyone who thinks there's an extreme balance issue to watch dimaga vs demuslim from the IEM. Extremely close games with excellent play on both sides. I think the all the IEM games so far demonstrate how good the balance in the game actually is(idra crushed strelok so bad it wasn't even funny). Note, I'm not saying the balance is perfect, I just think a lot of people are overstating the issue. Zerg players may have to work harder for their wins, but when they do work that hard it's a damn difficult force to stop.
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On August 21 2010 02:40 MockHamill wrote:
I think in a few months everyone will laugh at the old assumption that Terran > Zerg. By then everyone will have realized these things:
1) Mutas > Thor
2) Ultras > everything but air
3) Bling > Bio
4) Defilers rule them all
Terrans have no good answer to well microd mutas since Thors only break even. By going Thor/Marines you open yourself up to banelings. And when the Thor/Marines are dead mutas clear up the siege tanks.
Currently Terran have a slight advantage midgame but that is only because Zerg players do not realize how weak Thor are vs. Mutas. Soon that will change and Zerg midgame will be equal to or stronger than Terrans. Come late game Ultras with some defiler and baneling/zergling backup are much stronger than anything Terran can muster.
So I say:
Zerg > Terran.
I will quote this post in a few months to prove that I was right.
Anway I wish we had defilers.
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On August 21 2010 04:22 brad drac wrote:I suggest everyone who thinks there's an extreme balance issue to watch dimaga vs demuslim from the IEM. Extremely close games with excellent play on both sides. I think the all the IEM games so far demonstrate how good the balance in the game actually is(idra crushed strelok so bad it wasn't even funny). Note, I'm not saying the balance is perfect, I just think a lot of people are overstating the issue. Zerg players may have to work harder for their wins, but when they do work that hard it's a damn difficult force to stop.
That bolded statement right there is the perfect example of why it's imbalanced. What happens when a Terran player works just as hard as a zerg? Let's start using logic, please. And yes if you watch the games there are even more examples of why there is imbalance.
Watch the game that takes place on Blistering sands where DeMuslim does a huge thor/scv push and watch how many units a single thor kills with auto-repairing scvs behind it. This is not balanced in the slightest. If DeMuslim would have expanded instead of being lazy and letting his uncompleted command center idle he would have won that game easily. ie. 'if he worked as hard as Dimaga he would have won'.
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On August 21 2010 04:22 brad drac wrote:I suggest everyone who thinks there's an extreme balance issue to watch dimaga vs demuslim from the IEM. Extremely close games with excellent play on both sides. I think the all the IEM games so far demonstrate how good the balance in the game actually is(idra crushed strelok so bad it wasn't even funny). Note, I'm not saying the balance is perfect, I just think a lot of people are overstating the issue. Zerg players may have to work harder for their wins, but when they do work that hard it's a damn difficult force to stop.
Sounds like BW TvP. 
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turets are so silly in sc2
40 damage a shot to mutas or something...
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There is still players arguing ZvT is fine? wow...
Hell even SOME top terran players admitted it was not fair... how much more do you need?
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On August 21 2010 05:25 DoomFox wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 04:22 brad drac wrote:I suggest everyone who thinks there's an extreme balance issue to watch dimaga vs demuslim from the IEM. Extremely close games with excellent play on both sides. I think the all the IEM games so far demonstrate how good the balance in the game actually is(idra crushed strelok so bad it wasn't even funny). Note, I'm not saying the balance is perfect, I just think a lot of people are overstating the issue. Zerg players may have to work harder for their wins, but when they do work that hard it's a damn difficult force to stop. That bolded statement right there is the perfect example of why it's imbalanced. What happens when a Terran player works just as hard as a zerg? Let's start using logic, please. And yes if you watch the games there are even more examples of why there is imbalance. Watch the game that takes place on Blistering sands where DeMuslim does a huge thor/scv push and watch how many units a single thor kills with auto-repairing scvs behind it. This is not balanced in the slightest. If DeMuslim would have expanded instead of being lazy and letting his uncompleted command center idle he would have won that game easily. ie. 'if he worked as hard as Dimaga he would have won'.
What happens when terran works as hard as zerg are diminishing returns. The power of terran is the brute force of their units. If they're microed correctly they're extremely hard to deal with. If zerg can maneuver into a good position, it can crush the terran ball then reinforce far quicker.
If you take the thor + scv's out of context it's easy to make it sound imbalanced. That was a result of back and forth between the players which put demuslim in a position where he could pull that off unapposed. What would some banelings into the scv's have done, then a ling surround on the thor? Raped it, that's what. It's certainly a strong push, but have you ever had to deal with banelings as a bio terran, or broodlords when Z has air dominance?
+ Show Spoiler +Frankly calling the matchup imbalanced when the games were that close and dimaga went on to win it is an insult to demuslim who put on an excellent series with a great variety of builds.
Note again, I never said any matchup was perfectly balanced, I'm in no position to say, but when a terran and a zerg of, in my opinion, fairly equal skill can have games so close it seems fairly clear to me many of the balance issues are overstated. Check out idra's new TvZ build he showed off in the IEM. Totally shuts down the vast majority of T's early game options. The metagame evolves constantly. What seemed imbalanced a week ago could turn out to be easily countered when a player figures out how to deal with it.
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Once the early Rax bunker @ ramp pressure(Ala morrow @ IEM) becomes prevalent on ladder you wont see zerg winning any TvZs unless the Terran player gets massively outplayed.
On August 21 2010 04:22 brad drac wrote:I suggest everyone who thinks there's an extreme balance issue to watch dimaga vs demuslim from the IEM. Extremely close games with excellent play on both sides. I think the all the IEM games so far demonstrate how good the balance in the game actually is(idra crushed strelok so bad it wasn't even funny). Note, I'm not saying the balance is perfect, I just think a lot of people are overstating the issue. Zerg players may have to work harder for their wins, but when they do work that hard it's a damn difficult force to stop.
Watch some of Morrows games against Z or P.
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EPT
