On August 21 2010 17:44 Sitizen wrote: I have not seen this suggested here, so if it was I apologize, or if I'm off base feel free to ignore.
Rather than some of the drastic changes that have been thrown around I'd like to propose +light damage on the Queen. It would make containing the Z early much more risky for T perhaps opening more of the t2 tech tree as viable openings for Z.
Another idea I had for the queen was to add a snare to her attacks. This would greatly help in dealing with Reapers, Hellions, Zealots, and Banshees, without adding additional offensive power to the zerg lineup. It would also be micro intensive to manually target different units with the queen to spread the snare around, and overall fits in with the whole queen self and friendly movement modifier of creep.
I don't think that's a good idea. It sounds good in theory, but you have to make it way overpowered (25 energy spell) to get any use out of it. If you just replace transfusion and make it a 50 or 75 energy spell (or even add a fourth spell to the queen), it wouldn't help much against that potential 10 rax reaper harass, as you will not have enough energy on your queens to use that ability. Not to speak of the fact that if you ignore inject larvae, you'll have a bad economy and no units on top of it once you defend that harass. By the time you get 2 queens out of one base to defend the harass, you'll have dealt with it anyways ( or lost, for that matter).
The problem with reapers and hellions is just that they're both too cheap - reaper is too cheap in build time, on most maps the first reaper can be in your base even before the queen is out if you go 13 vespin 13 pool. And the hellion should really cost gas, I have no idea why it doesn't. It has splash and +attack against light, it's just way too cheap.
Terran has too good mineral dump units I think. Marines and Hellions. That is also mostly the only thing that really bothers me with Zerg, we don't have a good mineral dump unit. Lings really are pretty useless beyond midgame, the only reason you even see it sometimes is because literally every zerg (even macro masters like idra) often have 1000+ minerals that they simply need to dump somewhere, so they produce lings even though they have very little effect, but still it's better than just doing nothing with 1000 minerals and they have some niche rolls where they can be useful (like fast runbys after a big fight where you came out slightly ahead).
The intent was a passive snare like concussive shells, not an energy based ability. It could further be kept in check by only effecting units on creep.
On August 21 2010 11:16 clickrush wrote: 2. Thors should be attackable by air-to-air units. this wouldnt affect PvT at all because nobody is making thors against P. thors are just not in that MU because P can counter them with every of the three techpaths. In PvZ this could have a huge impact because corruptors could be made against thors. Z will have the problem that they have to spread their gas into mutas and corruptors but a good number of corruptors could force T to babysitt their thors more or to make ghosts/marines against mutas. its just not right that thors are effective against so many units that Z have in their arsenal.
Thor nerf is an idea I definitely agree with, but this is not the solution for 2 reasons: 1) It ruins TvT. Vikings are already incredibly dominant in that match-up, and Thors are basically the only unit that can actually provide good enough anti-air to stop them. Marines don't have enough range, and have to run into the opposing tanks' range to hit the Vikings, and nothing else on the ground shoots up. If you made it so that air units could hit Thors, then Vikings would murder them as well, and the entire match-up would become completely flat. 2) It makes the Thor too similar to the Colossus, which lessen racial diversity. Not a big problem, but still uncreative and bad.
On August 21 2010 13:51 DARKHYDRA wrote: I agree with the suggestion of making the hydra T1.5 based on T and P units that are T1.5 and have similar stats.
Some observations, while hydralisk has the fastest attack speed it has the lowest health and 0 armor and is the secont most expensive out the trio by 25min. The marauder has the cheapest cost and fastest build time and the best bonus vs Armored type but no air attack. The stalker has the highest cost and slowest build time, also has the most health, fastest walk speed, standard 6 range like a marauder and hit ground and air like a hydralisk.
There are other variables like stim, concussive shells, blink, creep, and different bonuses from upgrades.
So now the requirements for each currently.
Marauder: Barracks 150min/65sec + Tech Lab 50min/25gas/25sec Stalker: Gateway 150min/65sec + Cybernetics Core 150/50sec Hydralisk: Spawing Pool 200min/65sec + Lair 150min/100gas/80sec + Hydralisk Den 100min/100gas/40sec (also two drones used for pool+den so +100min?)
So really is dropping the hydralisk to just Pool + Den gonna give zerg an unfair advantage? To tech to Marauders its 200 minerals/25 gas and 90 seconds total, Stalker 300 minerals/115 seconds and Hydralisk would be 300 minerals/100 gas and 105 seconds total.
Overall I think that we should be patient and wait to see what the expansions do but this particual change I think should happen no matter what.
(I apologize if any of the above information is incorrect)
I don't think this would be too big of a deal for TvZ, but for PvZ, it would be really bad. Hydras are already an incredibly strong unit in that match-up, and they are often nearly the entirety of the Zerg's unit composition through the midgame. If it were possible to make them at hatch tech (even if the range upgrade stayed Lair), it would be nigh-impossible for Protoss to put on any sort of pressure for a very, very large period of time. Aggressive Hydra all-ins would also be potentially imbalanced, because Hydralisks are very strong against Protoss T1 and 1.5
I dont see why Hydralisks would be that much trouble against protoss early game. Compared to BW Hydralisks are now 25min/25gas more expensive and they lost theyre speed upgrade while the zealot got boosted from 60shield/60health to 50shield/100health for the same price, and then stalkers are only 25minerals more expensive the hydras, have twice the health, armor, faster walk speed and out range them before upgrade.
Also early game off of one hatch hydra production wouldnt be that great because they are expensive.
Im not a great player by any means though so take it with a grain of salt.
Obviously many people have been complaining that ZvT is imbalanced. But what is interesting to me is how much what people are saying is changing over a short time span (about 4 weeks).
At first people were saying "ZvT mech is imba, zerg cannot beat terran mech". You don't really hear that as much. Oh yes zergs complain about tanks still but not near as much. Thors are being countered by mutas, which they are supposed to counter. Ultras can take down tank lines. It just took time to learn those strategies.
Then it was "terran just has too many openings i can't counter them all". But just look at idra. He is countering reaper openings, hellion openings, etc all with only speedlings. Sometimes he is forced to get roaches (against mass reaper etc). This complaint may be valid, but how is terran having a bunch of openings a bad thing? Zerg is starting to develop different openings, once again you just need time.
Most recently its been "reaper openings are op!". So now we have gone from mech being op, to everything is op, to just infantry reaper are op? How long will this one last? Obviously it could be OP (morrow thinks so) but I would much rather give it 2-3 weeks before raising the cry "of its imba patch it".
Games take a long time to evolve, especially a game as complicated as SC2. Right now there aren't really even that many progamers developing those top strategies as compared to BW. This ZvT "problem" is an excellent example of how it evolves. And also why blizzard is doing the right thing to wait before any sort of balance patches.
On August 22 2010 02:16 DARKHYDRA wrote: I dont see why Hydralisks would be that much trouble against protoss early game. Compared to BW Hydralisks are now 25min/25gas more expensive and they lost theyre speed upgrade while the zealot got boosted from 60shield/60health to 50shield/100health for the same price, and then stalkers are only 25minerals more expensive the hydras, have twice the health, armor, faster walk speed and out range them before upgrade.
Also early game off of one hatch hydra production wouldnt be that great because they are expensive.
Im not a great player by any means though so take it with a grain of salt.
Hydras did 50% damage to Zealots in BW, that is pretty significant, allowing zealots to make it to melee range before they died.
Increasing scan sweep energy cost to ~75-100 and decreasing its duration to ~7-9 seconds would, at least,
+ complicate Terran harass, offensive, use of tanks (less sight = less damage, worse positions and generally more opportunities for Zerg), scouting, economy + make Zerg tactics more viable as Terran would be lacking information and detection + not hurt Terran too much, as otherwise many different aspects of Terran would evidently have to be touched
On August 22 2010 02:16 DARKHYDRA wrote: I dont see why Hydralisks would be that much trouble against protoss early game. Compared to BW Hydralisks are now 25min/25gas more expensive and they lost theyre speed upgrade while the zealot got boosted from 60shield/60health to 50shield/100health for the same price, and then stalkers are only 25minerals more expensive the hydras, have twice the health, armor, faster walk speed and out range them before upgrade.
Also early game off of one hatch hydra production wouldnt be that great because they are expensive.
Im not a great player by any means though so take it with a grain of salt.
Zealots had 100hp/60 shield in BW. Hydras also have explosive damage in BW, meaning they dealt half damage to light armor (Zealots are light). Not only that, but Dragoons were better range supplements to a zealot army at Tier 1 than Stalkers are. Dragoons have an attack animation that lets them shoot in a 360 degree regardless of where they face, meaning they were amazing kiters, dealt 20 explosive damage, meaning 15 damage to the medium armored hydra, and have 100hp/80sp, as opposed to the 10 damage stalkers deal and 80hp/80sp.
Therefore, the stronger SC2 hydralisk placed at tier 1 would disrupt the weakened Protoss tier 1 army.
Protoss army is not that much weaker and hydras are 25min/25gas more expensive now, also stalkers can hit and run against hydras with faster walk speed and blink.
You're right about zealot having 100hp/60sp in BW, that's my bad.
On August 22 2010 02:16 DARKHYDRA wrote: I dont see why Hydralisks would be that much trouble against protoss early game. Compared to BW Hydralisks are now 25min/25gas more expensive and they lost theyre speed upgrade while the zealot got boosted from 60shield/60health to 50shield/100health for the same price, and then stalkers are only 25minerals more expensive the hydras, have twice the health, armor, faster walk speed and out range them before upgrade.
Also early game off of one hatch hydra production wouldnt be that great because they are expensive.
Im not a great player by any means though so take it with a grain of salt.
Zealots had 100hp/60 shield in BW. Hydras also have explosive damage in BW, meaning they dealt half damage to light armor (Zealots are light). Not only that, but Dragoons were better range supplements to a zealot army at Tier 1 than Stalkers are. Dragoons have an attack animation that lets them shoot in a 360 degree regardless of where they face, meaning they were amazing kiters, dealt 20 explosive damage, meaning 15 damage to the medium armored hydra, and have 100hp/80sp, as opposed to the 10 damage stalkers deal and 80hp/80sp.
Therefore, the stronger SC2 hydralisk placed at tier 1 would disrupt the weakened Protoss tier 1 army.
Well BW hydra >>> goons... if Protoss was stupid enough to not have HT's (or reavers) Zerg could just roll him with mass hydras.
After speed hydras > zealots... after zealot speed zealots > hydras. Right now zealots counter hydras even without charge when hydras are off creep. It's difficult to kite zealots on creep too due to the turn around time of a hydra. There's a huge chance it will take a hit before it attacks/moves.
You could also dodge storms in BW to a certain extent... in SC2 it's almost impossible since units are a lot slower and spamming storms is as easy as a-moving... and if you mix in some well placed forcefields in there then there's really NO DODGING! Colossi also sorta rape hydras...
Basically hydras come out around the same time HT or Colossi come out... which is pretty silly imo...
If Roaches had like 75 HP(debatable) and maybe even did less damage (around ~12ish) but didn't cost gas and speed was researched at Hatch and Hydras had 110-120 HP(debatable), having Hydras in T2-2.5 would make sense... as of right now it's pretty silly.
Roaches are so stupid for the simple fact that they cost gas. You need gassy units to stop mineral only units (Hellions/Zealots) which slows down your tech... which you MUST have in order to survive T1.5 & up.
I'm very curious to see what Blizz comes up with in the upcoming patch. But I honestly think that there should be significant changes, rather than tiny buffs/nerfs... What I suggested would promote a little more micro from zerg in early game if he tries to roach rush/mass since they're a lot more fragile but at the same time give zerg a better chance of stopping annoying ass harass attempts without hurting tech/economy-wise.
It will also help zvz since zerg will have an option to go roaches if his opponent tries to go ling baneling... lings will counter roaches easier but it'll be easier to get roaches to stop baneling busts... so it'll be more like ling/baneling/roach vs ling/baneling/roach in zvz rather than ling/baneling vs ling/baneling or ling/baneling vs (attempt to) mass roach. Later, both would still be able to transition into muta or hydra or both or whatever... Banelings will counter roaches better so it'll give more opportunities for interesting tactics. More of a soft counter situation rather than Roach>Baneling>Ling. (read between the lines, please.)
The only problem I see is marauders ZvT and Immortals ZvP... both should be reworked as well. I mean T1-T1.5 units should be a bit more fragile imo. So marauders should have like ~80 HP. Think marines/firebats in BW... firebats were just a bit beefier HP wise and it made perfect sense. (Can we punish Terran with mass lings for going mass marauder and no hellions, please?)
If Marauders/Roaches are a bit weaker, immortals can do like 25 dmg to armored and 10-15 to light. So they still counter both units the same way (due to less HP) Roaches will have hell in against marauders so maybe remove roach armor and make them light? (Immortals won't hard counter them anymore but other units won't have as much trouble) In this case, hellions will counter them harder, but at least it'll be range vs range (mins only vs mins only) so it's more of an even fight (way better than lings vs hellions -.-).
Stalkers should move a little slower if they have the same HP but their damage can be switched to flat 14 (or something like that). More dragoonish feel and since they would be a lot beefier compared to "new" roach/marauder. It should be ok.
*sighs I think someone with good Editor skills should just take the best suggestions from the community (pros preferably) and make maps with stats that are suggested. Have pros play it out and see how it works. IE: take all of the stats I suggested and adjust current stats in the editor. Have people play it and see how it works... if we get positive feedback - have Blizz take a look!!!
PS: It's another one of those late night posts so if doesn't make any sense and I'm a complete scrub, please be nice about letting me know... cuz I might find you... >:|
After this final of Idra vs. Morrow we will probably see even more mass reaper
My real problem with this is that EVEN when the zerg knows it's coming, it still represents a HUGE threat. It's not like that the other way around, imo. If terran knows a roach all-in (and that's an all-in btw!) is coming, he can stop it by acting in time. Same with baneling bust or whatever. With mass reapers, Z can see it coming from a mile away and STILL be punished hard by it. That, I think, is the real problem. It might be stopable, but Z are just too weak about this kind of early aggression :/
I would say to increase roach range so that reapers cannot kite them. Then atleast it will be something like marines vs mutalisk in sc1. Right now the mutalisk are cheaper and have longer range than the marines. Something is wrong here, lol.
Okay, I've never been one to side with the whiners. My best matchup has always been between my ZvT and ZvZ but I've never come across 5 rax reapers or 3 rax reaper openings and it looked really really scary watching it today. If a terran 5 rax rines/mauraders then that's certainly all inish. That is not the case at all with reapers. So why is that? And from game 3 of the series it looked like Idra was microing so much that he couldn't keep up with larva injection and his macro fell far far behind. Now (If this is the case) if Idra, who practices 12+ hours a day can't keep his multitasking against heavy reaper harass against a player who admittedly had "pretty bad reaper micro early in the stages before practicing hard[sic]", then what hope do the rest of us have? It could just be that Idra was tilting that game though and just forgot his larva injects.
the only thing i see wrong with zvt is reapers. remove them and you might see some terrans who actually fast expand and play a normal macro game. does sc2 really need a unit that serves one purpose and is no longer used after 10 minutes?
Most balancing discussions I read do not offer a real viable answer to how to balance the game. Ideas of creep slowing non zerg units, or healing zerg units among many others are a complete change to the philosophy of the game designers and simply wont happen.
What I think will help the MU is doing something to either slow the terran (or speed the zergs) initial production of tech lab units or roaches. A very minor timing tweak. That might not work but then, most suggestions would not.
EPT
