|
I really want to hear an answer from a top zerg, do you want to expand with no cost? do you want to be able to hold evey timing attack, but every timing attack that Terran prepares for you which the Terran race is most strong, the timing attacks, do yo want to freely expand to ur natural, and 3rd with no problem ? No terran attack should threaten you while u have "some" force in your base and queens and creep over the expos?
In the beginin of beta, Terrans said at this exact moment of the game we cant hold an Immortal push, they proved it that holding of the immortal push is nearly impossible with no damage. They made their arguments, showed replays, asked for tactics tried everything (you will remember the mass marine expo tactic those days which is still valid with some additions)
Terrans are saying only 1 think, if you are weak against some certain pushes prove it that with this moment when the terran comes with these units, its "almost" impossible to hold of and countinue normal game. But please dont make it TERRAN OP thing. Stupid players will want to remain powerfull if they want while the others cry but Starcraft is not this.
Timing pushes are the key element for Terran to win a game. But if the zerg players are seriously saying in early mid and late game Terran is better in most of the ways against zerg there's something wrong with this.
While saying terran is op please consider TvP too where I see a very tight match up, you can say we need buffs for thesee for this reason here is the replays etc but I am really reall getting tired and dotn want to listen to any Zergs talking like WoW players.
After IEM even tough all zergs beated all terrans till the final and 2nd and 3rd place were Zergs, Zergs still talking MorroW's race was OP, therefore he won the games. What is this? So Zerg should be able to do ANYTHING but pay nothing? Expand but not pay any price? So terran has to face 200/200 zerg armies multiple times in a few minutes with the huge macro game and larvae capacity?
Please answer me ? You want reapers, helions tanks, thors, vikings, marauders to be nerfed? I am not sayin " use nydus canals bla bla" this is riddiculous too. But I really wonder what the Zergs want. Freeely expand all over while the queen pumps larvae and be in 0 risk for a timing push.
I hope they nerf Terran to the ground for a patch and we see what happens 
|
On August 23 2010 07:26 teamsolid wrote:http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9092028If you skip to 19:00, MorroW tells us that he only learned about the reaper build AFTER he came over to IEM from Dimaga and Demuslim and practiced it for a few hours. I'm pretty shocked that he was able to win 3-1 over Idra who practices 12 hrs/day in Korea just trying to defend against that build. I really appreciate his honesty though, where even he says the build is pretty imbalanced and expects it to be patched soon. I mean even on stage in his post-interview, MorroW said that other people watched him use the reapers and said his micro was not very good. Now imagine a Terran player who has practiced his reaper micro for weeks to perfect it. The games would turn out even more one-sided than they are now.
I don't want to continue in the " Terran OP" theme but seriously.. it's ridiculous if it's true. :|
|
On August 23 2010 07:29 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 07:26 teamsolid wrote:http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9092028If you skip to 19:00, MorroW tells us that he only learned about the reaper build AFTER he came over to IEM from Dimaga and Demuslim and practiced it for a few hours. I'm pretty shocked that he was able to win 3-1 over Idra who practices 12 hrs/day in Korea just trying to defend against that build. I really appreciate his honesty though, where even he says the build is pretty imbalanced and expects it to be patched soon. I mean even on stage in his post-interview, MorroW said that other people watched him use the reapers and said his micro was not very good. Now imagine a Terran player who has practiced his reaper micro for weeks to perfect it. The games would turn out even more one-sided than they are now. This is a direct result of reaper speed being 50/50 instead of 100/100 like it should be. 100/100 messes up the build horribly. I just tested it out with the 100/100 for the upgrade and the build gets all mucked up. Zerg can actually defend an FE with roaches if the speed is made 100/100 because it takes so much longer to get speed out. By that point it's an even game or in Z's favor.
Actually even if it was 100/100, I think Terran would just go refinery first before rax. It would actually only delay their build by a few seconds. I think reaper and the speed upgrade research time needs to be increased significantly. Or something more drastic needs to be done on the Zerg end (e.g. make roach speed at hatchery tech so they can safely get roach speed very shortly after speed reapers are available).
|
Very well written post by OP. I agree with all of those points. As a random player, playing as Zerg vs Terran (or maybe even Zerg in general) feels very one dimensional. I don't even care about imbalance or whatever, I just hate having to do the same openers as Zerg every game. I've tried differentiating and experimenting, but anything other than 'standard' puts you too far behind or leaves you too vulnerable.
|
On August 23 2010 07:41 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 07:29 Floophead_III wrote:On August 23 2010 07:26 teamsolid wrote:http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9092028If you skip to 19:00, MorroW tells us that he only learned about the reaper build AFTER he came over to IEM from Dimaga and Demuslim and practiced it for a few hours. I'm pretty shocked that he was able to win 3-1 over Idra who practices 12 hrs/day in Korea just trying to defend against that build. I really appreciate his honesty though, where even he says the build is pretty imbalanced and expects it to be patched soon. I mean even on stage in his post-interview, MorroW said that other people watched him use the reapers and said his micro was not very good. Now imagine a Terran player who has practiced his reaper micro for weeks to perfect it. The games would turn out even more one-sided than they are now. This is a direct result of reaper speed being 50/50 instead of 100/100 like it should be. 100/100 messes up the build horribly. I just tested it out with the 100/100 for the upgrade and the build gets all mucked up. Zerg can actually defend an FE with roaches if the speed is made 100/100 because it takes so much longer to get speed out. By that point it's an even game or in Z's favor. Actually even if it was 100/100, I think Terran would just go refinery first before rax. It would actually only delay their build by a few seconds. I think reaper and the speed upgrade research time needs to be increased significantly. Or something more drastic needs to be done on the Zerg end (e.g. make roach speed at hatchery tech so they can safely get roach speed very shortly after speed reapers are available).
Ref before rax delays the first reaper quite significantly and cuts the OC. Ref before rax only makes sense if you're doing a fast factory build without even making a marine.
|
On August 23 2010 07:38 Armut wrote:
But I really wonder what the Zergs want. Freeely expand all over while the queen pumps larvae and be in 0 risk for a timing push.
I know I cant speak on behalf of all zergs, but personally I really only want two things... which sadly will never happen until HOTS
1) Some tier 1 ranged unit. Roach doesnt cut it because of how easy it can be microed to the point where range 3 is just "lol". IDC if it forces hydra to tier 1 or if it brings an entirely new unit. Had zerg have some ranged unit most of the early game pressure will still be hard to deal with.. but manageable.
2) Some unit that can do splash damage. Banelings dont cut it, not one bit. It can't hold a choke, or fight off hordes of units. If you're lucky you might be able to get 2-3 explode in your enemy's army out of perhaps, 15. Then what? You just lost those resources into something that got slaughtered and still you weren't able to maintain that expansion or hold off a push, which is why the lurker was soo fundamental in the game for zerg. Of course, I dont expect it to return but please for the love of god, some unit that can do splash and survive afterwords would be greatly appreciated.
To me, terran is fine. Its just that zerg doesn't have the right units for what we need to do at specific situations in the game.
|
Reapers were fought off just fine after the first game, Idra should've gone muta/ling/bling in game 3 after successfully warding off the reapers. Instead he chose a less powerful unit composition and didn't macro as good as morrow. He deservedly lost and game balance is surprisingly good for a brand new game.
|
On August 23 2010 08:24 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 07:38 Armut wrote:
But I really wonder what the Zergs want. Freeely expand all over while the queen pumps larvae and be in 0 risk for a timing push.
I know I cant speak on behalf of all zergs, but personally I really only want two things... which sadly will never happen until HOTS 1) Some tier 1 ranged unit. Roach doesnt cut it because of how easy it can be microed to the point where range 3 is just "lol". IDC if it forces hydra to tier 1 or if it brings an entirely new unit. Had zerg have some ranged unit most of the early game pressure will still be hard to deal with.. but manageable. 2) Some unit that can do splash damage. Banelings dont cut it, not one bit. It can't hold a choke, or fight off hordes of units. If you're lucky you might be able to get 2-3 explode in your enemy's army out of perhaps, 15. Then what? You just lost those resources into something that got slaughtered and still you weren't able to maintain that expansion or hold off a push, which is why the lurker was soo fundamental in the game for zerg. Of course, I dont expect it to return but please for the love of god, some unit that can do splash and survive afterwords would be greatly appreciated. To me, terran is fine. Its just that zerg doesn't have the right units for what we need to do at specific situations in the game.
I agree zerg needs a units to defend expos but with a really strategical cost. Maybe lurker kinda thing not like baneling and stuff. I am happy you realized what I was trying to say, its not about terran being overpowered Zerg needs a little bit of adjustment maybe and alittle bit meta game
|
On August 23 2010 08:05 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 07:41 teamsolid wrote:On August 23 2010 07:29 Floophead_III wrote:On August 23 2010 07:26 teamsolid wrote:http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9092028If you skip to 19:00, MorroW tells us that he only learned about the reaper build AFTER he came over to IEM from Dimaga and Demuslim and practiced it for a few hours. I'm pretty shocked that he was able to win 3-1 over Idra who practices 12 hrs/day in Korea just trying to defend against that build. I really appreciate his honesty though, where even he says the build is pretty imbalanced and expects it to be patched soon. I mean even on stage in his post-interview, MorroW said that other people watched him use the reapers and said his micro was not very good. Now imagine a Terran player who has practiced his reaper micro for weeks to perfect it. The games would turn out even more one-sided than they are now. This is a direct result of reaper speed being 50/50 instead of 100/100 like it should be. 100/100 messes up the build horribly. I just tested it out with the 100/100 for the upgrade and the build gets all mucked up. Zerg can actually defend an FE with roaches if the speed is made 100/100 because it takes so much longer to get speed out. By that point it's an even game or in Z's favor. Actually even if it was 100/100, I think Terran would just go refinery first before rax. It would actually only delay their build by a few seconds. I think reaper and the speed upgrade research time needs to be increased significantly. Or something more drastic needs to be done on the Zerg end (e.g. make roach speed at hatchery tech so they can safely get roach speed very shortly after speed reapers are available). Ref before rax delays the first reaper quite significantly and cuts the OC. Ref before rax only makes sense if you're doing a fast factory build without even making a marine.
Okay I just tested this in YABOT. The standard reaper build:
10 supply --> 12 rax --> 12 refinery gets your first reaper out at 3:45, and nitro pack started at 3:29.
Now if nitro pack costed 100/100, changing the build to:
10 Supply --> 11 refinery --> 12 rax gets your first reaper out at 3:57, and nitro pack started at 3:33 (I used stim for the 100/100).
So it delays your reaper (and OC) by a measly 12 sec and speed by 4 seconds. So clearly increasing it to 100/100 wouldn't change much, it would just require a slightly altered build.
Anyhow, the first reaper isn't even the dangerous part, it's when you get that critical amount of 5-7+ reapers that just eat lings for breakfast if you micro them well.
|
On August 23 2010 07:26 teamsolid wrote:http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9092028If you skip to 19:00, MorroW tells us that he only learned about the reaper build AFTER he came over to IEM from Dimaga and Demuslim and practiced it for a few hours. I'm pretty shocked that he was able to win 3-1 over Idra who practices 12 hrs/day in Korea just trying to defend against that build. I really appreciate his honesty though, where even he says the build is pretty imbalanced and expects it to be patched soon. I mean even on stage in his post-interview, MorroW said that other people watched him use the reapers and said his micro was not very good. Now imagine a Terran player who has practiced his reaper micro for weeks to perfect it. The games would turn out even more one-sided than they are now.
His micro was actually very strong.
And so what if he only practised it for a few hours? He's talented.
|
Hmmm... just looking through the first page of this thread.. and I see 80% of the people who disagree with the OP is either or warned or temp banned. Cool.
I'll probably be banned for saying this, too. -Oh well.
User was warned for this post
|
I'd say move hydra to T1 (range upgrade remains at T2) and move roach to T2 (lower supply to 1, lower damage to 14 from 16). Pretty much solves everything.
Hydras will be effective for defense but won't be overpowering at offense due to poor speed and range in T1.
|
On August 23 2010 09:45 link0 wrote:
I'd say move hydra to T1 (range upgrade remains at T2) and move roach to T2 (lower supply to 1, lower damage to 14 from 16). Pretty much solves everything.
Hydras will be effective for defense but won't be overpowering at offense due to poor speed and range in T1.
I disagree. But that's something that would have to be tested. Having roach hydra at tier one seems really powerful. And Blizzard has stated that they really like the only anti air being the queen for Zerg. I just don't really see the need for it. Would be interesting but I doubt it'd work, since hydras do SO much damage to protoss gateway units.
|
On August 23 2010 08:35 venger wrote:
Reapers were fought off just fine after the first game, Idra should've gone muta/ling/bling in game 3 after successfully warding off the reapers. Instead he chose a less powerful unit composition and didn't macro as good as morrow. He deservedly lost and game balance is surprisingly good for a brand new game.
I guess you didn't notice the 7 barracks in Morrows base, a expansion already made, and tech being made as well as upgrades being researched. I guess you also failed to see how during these attacks idra probably made 1 or 2 drones.
You have to realize the reapers arn't made to win the game right then and there, it's to put yourself at a decisive advantage over your opponent by safely making tech and resources while denying your opponent from making workers.
|
there is no problem with balance...
There is only two thinks:
-maps imbalance
-zerg is borring race to play
|
United States47024 Posts
On August 23 2010 09:45 link0 wrote:
I'd say move hydra to T1 (range upgrade remains at T2) and move roach to T2 (lower supply to 1, lower damage to 14 from 16). Pretty much solves everything.
Hydras will be effective for defense but won't be overpowering at offense due to poor speed and range in T1.
Interestingly, this might make the ZvT early game worse, because reapers can fight low hydra counts fairly reasonably. At the same time, T1 hydras have a significant chance of screwing up ZvP.
Even so, I'd be against this idea just because it's such a drastic change that it would take months for the repercussions of it to be totally mapped out--and we'd have balance totally muddled in the meantime.
|
On August 23 2010 10:20 MrKozi wrote:
there is no problem with balance...
There is only two thinks:
-maps imbalance
-zerg is borring race to play
I think zerg is the only race that isn't boring to play.
|
On August 23 2010 10:20 MrKozi wrote:
there is no problem with balance...
There is only two thinks:
-maps imbalance
-zerg is borring race to play
Zerg is soooo fun to watch though. The mechanics always ruin my experience playing them, but I definitely enjoy watching them.
|
On August 23 2010 10:20 MrKozi wrote:
there is no problem with balance...
There is only two thinks:
-maps imbalance
-zerg is borring race to play
I suggest you watch Dimaga's (or Idra's) late game replays of zerg (ultralisk/broodlord/baneling/infestor) from IEM and then reconsider your statements.
|
I can't speak for playing AS zerg, since I don't, but I can definitely say that Zerg are in no way boring to play AGAINST. Especially in mid/late game, they have crazy map control, and there's just something about being on creep and knowing that:
1.) An entire army could come at you at crazy fast speeds from any direction
and
2.) Even if you destroy them, there will just be another one almost immediately
That really puts you on your guard. Especially playing toss, its scary when a force is almost on me and I have to decide whether to drop forcefields against them...or whether they're just a diversion, and another force will be flanking me in just a minute.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
