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On August 22 2010 23:39 OneFierceZealot wrote:
the only thing i see wrong with zvt is reapers. remove them and you might see some terrans who actually fast expand and play a normal macro game. does sc2 really need a unit that serves one purpose and is no longer used after 10 minutes?
Its not only Reapers... reapers are just the current FOTM strategy/abuse. With the near infinity of builds terrans can do, you can bet there will be a new one every time. Terrans have the best design of all races and this is going to me more and more obvious.
The reason: versatility.
Addons that can be switched for different buildings,
Medivacs which are both for mobility and sustainability,
stim which makes those units super fast and strong,
as well as the great defenses to rely on:
wall-ins with depots,
free bunkers,
planetary fortress
and the very strong missile turret.
None of the other 2 races has the same versatility as the Terrans and I am sure that in 1 year time, terrans will be even in a more dominating position.
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Better anti-air might be part of the key here. Corruptors/mutas are no match against vikings, and hydras just get owned by terran ground.
I suggest bringing back the scourge from BW. Not only would this provide a possible counter to the 9range vikings, it could also soften the MMM ball by taking out medivacs, and at the least occupying marines from shooting other things. If it's made low-tier and cheap, it could be great for scouting too.
Against toss it'll deal with void ray cheese and be a hard counter against the colossus, but maybe it'll still get countered by psi storm.
Looking at the results in this video, I think it can really open up a lot of zerg potential:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141365
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Making Zerg anti-air better is fixing a problem with something that's flavor so would just be a pointless buff to Zerg.
The brunt of the problem is clearly early game.
The IEM + Show Spoiler +Last game of Idra vs Morrow imo shows everything wrong with Zerg. It's something that's really underused right now too. Opening with the BO of one strategy into a different strategy switch is devastating to zerg players (even when protoss do it, but it's far easier for Terran). They have to react based on the scouting information and react pre-emptively. The cost of going an sub-optimal build like showing mulit-rax reaper into marauder hellion is far far less than the damage it does to zerg who has to build for 5 rax reaper. If the zerg does not optimize their build based on their opponent's they're already going to be behind, which is how you commonly see it. The zerg has to do X,Y,Z to be somewhat defended from everything the Terran has, then the Terran can just bowl over the zerg due to lack of stuff.
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On August 23 2010 05:22 Anzuu wrote:
Corruptors/mutas are no match against vikings
Mutas completely destroy vikings =s
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On August 23 2010 05:35 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 05:22 Anzuu wrote:
Corruptors/mutas are no match against vikings
Mutas completely destroy vikings =s
You can get a bunch of potshots off with viking infinity range and then run back to safety where you have a thor =.=
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On August 23 2010 05:38 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 05:35 Seam wrote:On August 23 2010 05:22 Anzuu wrote:
Corruptors/mutas are no match against vikings
Mutas completely destroy vikings =s You can get a bunch of potshots off with viking infinity range and then run back to safety where you have a thor =.=
That still doesn't really make vikings kill mutas though. It's not like you can just pump vikings in response to mutas and have them take care of everything.
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On August 23 2010 05:38 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 05:35 Seam wrote:On August 23 2010 05:22 Anzuu wrote:
Corruptors/mutas are no match against vikings
Mutas completely destroy vikings =s You can get a bunch of potshots off with viking infinity range and then run back to safety where you have a thor =.=
So dont say vikings own mutas when you're talking about muta thor.
And I'd still say your wrong, cost vs cost mutas will beat thor/vikings.
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Woops, did not mean to say corruptors/mutas...corruptors/broodlords, but duh since broodlords can't hit air. Anyway.
Now that I think about it though, mutas still aren't quite the viking hardcounter zerg needs. There are many ways to get around mutas but not enough to get around vikings, which is kinda what point #4 of the OP touches on. Still, I agree early game needs more attention.
As for early game issues... I really don't know how to fix this one. Scouting is tough for zerg, maybe the old parasite ability could help, although i think it would have to be "cloaked" instead of a green box around the parasited unit.
Static defense change...queen change...maybe a creep change? I've heard some people mention changing it from giving speed to slowing enemies instead, but I can't predict how it would turn out.
This still wouldn't help zerg gain early initiative to open up zerg flexibility (MasterAsia's point 2).
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Moving roach speed to T1 would greatly improve zerg. It would make it easier to respond to mass reapers (and many other openings), would make early aggression possible and add some diversity to Zerg in the early game.
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When I play zerg; if a terran goes viking, I counter it with mutaliks =/. They're so much faster/better...
I'm always more comfortable playing ZvT than TvT/TvZ aswell.
idk why... terran army feel weak vs mutalisk/bling/roaches and lategame they have no counter to ultralisks.
The pb is when the T stay on 1 base and surprise you while you pick the wrong counter. It's often a quick loose then. Other than that I always tought it was pretty zerg favored unless there is a lot of cliff/highground everywhere.
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One of these three changes would make early game ZvT more interesting and variable. Either make Reapers deal no bonus damage to light, no bonus damage to buildings, or remove the speed upgrade. Reapers seem like a conceptually potent unit for counterharass, much like Phase Prism warp-ins and Zergling runbys. Unfortunately, their role is both surpassed by Marauder drops and made unviable because they are simply too gas-heavy and slow-building to be worth it, especially when they aren't usable in a main army past tier 1. The early harassment unit is a conceptually flawed idea, as it can either be good at what it does and thus abusable or bad at what it does and thus worthless. If Blizzard killed its harassment function and made it good at other things too, it would be a worthwhile addition to SC2.
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I am so sad adrenal glands gives only 20%, while stim gives 50% attackspeed.
I do not think it is unreasonable to buff adrenaline glands up to 35% as they were in sc bw.
It is not like zergling would become imba.
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On August 23 2010 06:58 ganil wrote:
When I play zerg; if a terran goes viking, I counter it with mutaliks =/. They're so much faster/better...
I'm always more comfortable playing ZvT than TvT/TvZ aswell.
idk why... terran army feel weak vs mutalisk/bling/roaches and lategame they have no counter to ultralisks.
The pb is when the T stay on 1 base and surprise you while you pick the wrong counter. It's often a quick loose then. Other than that I always tought it was pretty zerg favored unless there is a lot of cliff/highground everywhere.
Thors DESTROY Ultralisks, even without using the Strike Cannon.
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
How many Hydralisks does it take to kill a Battlecruiser?
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1) Remove the roach from the game it is a broken, gimmicky unit with no place.
2) Add Lurkers
3) Speed buff hydras off creep while lowering their DPS (hydras tier 1.5) ~this may break PVZ Thoughts?
4) Make the mutalisk responsive again.
5) Remove creeping mechanic all together, another lame gimmick that keeps you contained to your base, requires apm just to put you on equal footing with your opponent, tumors will get destroyed during the first push by a competant player.
6) Pathing does not cause ground armies to clump in a ball (i'd consider that a ling buff)
~ Possible roach fix ? Return the roach to armor of 2, make the burrowing animation less noticeable (frankly the raoch burrowing animation is a joke, it is omost impossible not to see them.)
As it stands roaches are a sink hole they are hard countered by everything low mobility, and range.
Increase roach tunneling speed, roaches may actually have a chance to get to where they want to go before they get scanned
~This is a wild idea off the top of my head roaches can create a sinkhole while burrowed, manually activated ability, Stuns and or slows units passing over it.
~Other flavor Roach lies in wait in the sinkhole and kills the unit that falls into it, if you think about it lurkers would omost 1 hit marines and zealots regardless and do it several at a time.
~Next suggestion unburrow becomes *ambush* the roach pops out and has a bonus increase to dps for a few moments
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On August 23 2010 05:22 Anzuu wrote:
Better anti-air might be part of the key here. Corruptors/mutas are no match against vikings, and hydras just get owned by terran ground.
I suggest bringing back the scourge from BW. Not only would this provide a possible counter to the 9range vikings, it could also soften the MMM ball by taking out medivacs, and at the least occupying marines from shooting other things. If it's made low-tier and cheap, it could be great for scouting too.
Do you really think scourges would be effective when Vikings and Thors pick them off from the other side of the map? 
That said, it would be interesting to see them being used to remove the medivac support from a bio army.. and it would be great to defend zerg against drops. I've played terran for more than a decade and it's weird in sc2 to feel completely safe when moving in my dropship; in bw, there was always the fear of pressing "4" and not getting any response, and concluding that scourges ate your ship..  !!
As for the current topic, I think it's a bit comparable to TvP in bw, where terran was a lot more micro intensive than protoss, ("protoss is easier"), but if done correctly, very very balanced. ZvT in sc2 is not quite there yet though, because of zerg's lack of options, mainly offensive options, early game.
The other day I lost my scouting scv too early, and went for a marine rush - 8 marines from 2 rax. Turns out he went roaches+lings, and I lost my 8 marines for only 2 or so roaches of his. In bw, a loss like that is HUGE and you would've needed to turtle for 30 minutes combined with brilliant drops+luck to beat a good opponent from that position. In said sc2 game, I switched to marauders, turtled a bit, did get harrassed by muta, but nowhere did I really make a game-changing brilliant attack or anything... I exped and then attack, hurt the zerg, then attacked again and won. Right there it felt like tvz is not fair..... but I think it's a bit early to call tvz imbalanced. Let's wait a few months for new strats to be explored.
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http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9092028
If you skip to 19:00, MorroW tells us that he only learned about the reaper build AFTER he came over to IEM from Dimaga and Demuslim and practiced it for a few hours. I'm pretty shocked that he was able to win 3-1 over Idra who practices 12 hrs/day in Korea just trying to defend against that build. I really appreciate his honesty though, where even he says the build is pretty imbalanced and expects it to be patched soon.
I mean even on stage in his post-interview, MorroW said that other people watched him use the reapers and said his micro was not very good. Now imagine a Terran player who has practiced his reaper micro for weeks to perfect it. The games would turn out even more one-sided than they are now.
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Thors DESTROY Ultralisks, even without using the Strike Cannon.
I´ve done some testing in the editor(Every scenario about 5 times):
(All of creep and without any upgrades)
(If not mentioned otherwise all ultras where attackmoved on the thors)
Results:
1 ultralisk barly beats a thor
1 thor barly beats an ultralisk if you right click on an idle ultralisk
5 ultras kill 5 thors easy without any micro
10 ultras eat thors for breakfast
The higher the numbers gets the easier it is for the ultras to kill the thors.
Their splash has an insane range they even do some dmg to a thor that stands behind a thor.
So no thors really don´t hard counter ultras especially if you clump them. Even with great micro you would only come out slightly ahead and the 250 mm cannons dont enhance the dps of the thor
and thus are pretty useless since they don´t stun ultras anymore.
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On August 23 2010 07:20 Kaptein[konijn] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 05:22 Anzuu wrote:
Better anti-air might be part of the key here. Corruptors/mutas are no match against vikings, and hydras just get owned by terran ground.
I suggest bringing back the scourge from BW. Not only would this provide a possible counter to the 9range vikings, it could also soften the MMM ball by taking out medivacs, and at the least occupying marines from shooting other things. If it's made low-tier and cheap, it could be great for scouting too.
Do you really think scourges would be effective when Vikings and Thors pick them off from the other side of the map? That said, it would be interesting to see them being used to remove the medivac support from a bio army.. and it would be great to defend zerg against drops. I've played terran for more than a decade and it's weird in sc2 to feel completely safe when moving in my dropship; in bw, there was always the fear of pressing "4" and not getting any response, and concluding that scourges ate your ship.. !! As for the current topic, I think it's a bit comparable to TvP in bw, where terran was a lot more micro intensive than protoss, ("protoss is easier"), but if done correctly, very very balanced. ZvT in sc2 is not quite there yet though, because of zerg's lack of options, mainly offensive options, early game. The other day I lost my scouting scv too early, and went for a marine rush - 8 marines from 2 rax. Turns out he went roaches+lings, and I lost my 8 marines for only 2 or so roaches of his. In bw, a loss like that is HUGE and you would've needed to turtle for 30 minutes combined with brilliant drops+luck to beat a good opponent from that position. In said sc2 game, I switched to marauders, turtled a bit, did get harrassed by muta, but nowhere did I really make a game-changing brilliant attack or anything... I exped and then attack, hurt the zerg, then attacked again and won. Right there it felt like tvz is not fair..... but I think it's a bit early to call tvz imbalanced. Let's wait a few months for new strats to be explored.
You give an example of TvZ imbalance, but then say it's a bit early to call TvZ imbalance. Basically "TvZ is imbalanced, but we should wait a few months before we actually call it that." (And you don't send scourge by themselves, you muta bomb)
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On August 23 2010 07:26 teamsolid wrote:http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9092028If you skip to 19:00, MorroW tells us that he only learned about the reaper build AFTER he came over to IEM from Dimaga and Demuslim and practiced it for a few hours. I'm pretty shocked that he was able to win 3-1 over Idra who practices 12 hrs/day in Korea just trying to defend against that build. I really appreciate his honesty though, where even he says the build is pretty imbalanced and expects it to be patched soon. I mean even on stage in his post-interview, MorroW said that other people watched him use the reapers and said his micro was not very good. Now imagine a Terran player who has practiced his reaper micro for weeks to perfect it. The games would turn out even more one-sided than they are now.
This is a direct result of reaper speed being 50/50 instead of 100/100 like it should be. 100/100 messes up the build horribly. I just tested it out with the 100/100 for the upgrade and the build gets all mucked up.
Zerg can actually defend an FE with roaches if the speed is made 100/100 because it takes so much longer to get speed out. By that point it's an even game or in Z's favor.
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EPT
