EPTZ v T: Current situation and comparison to BW - Page 51
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crms
United States11933 Posts
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NeoScout
United States103 Posts
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omnic
United States188 Posts
On August 23 2010 11:54 NeoScout wrote: I never liked how units clump together in the sc2 engine since day one, it helps terran with dps and zerg suffers more from aoe, let alone it doesn't look attractive. I hope blizzard helps zerg in some way. I always thought this is how it would play out even though blizzard insisted that it was going to help zerg (specifically Zerglings) and that's why they are weaker in sc2 than in bw. | ||
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Kaptein[konijn]
Netherlands110 Posts
On August 23 2010 07:27 synapse wrote: You give an example of TvZ imbalance, but then say it's a bit early to call TvZ imbalance. Basically "TvZ is imbalanced, but we should wait a few months before we actually call it that." (And you don't send scourge by themselves, you muta bomb) That's because I'm split on this issue. On one hand, I think terran CURRENTLY has an advantage - i.e. they can screw up an attack and still come back to win - something that was impossible in bw, or for zerg in sc2 when facing terran. On the other hand, the game is very young and new strats may be found that give a whole new perspective. That said, I would like to see zerg have more options early in the game. They're fun to play against, but should also be fun to play with. Here are some builds that a zerg could do in bw against terran within 6 minutes: 3 hatch mass drone+sunken+muta (defensive) 2 hatch quick muta (offensive) 1hatch 9pool speedling+lurker rush (offensive) 2 hatch lurker drop + take island (offensive) 2 hatch hydra rush to break a meching terran - risky but still viable (offensive) 3 hatch hydra (tech later) to defend against vulture/drops (defensive) 2/3 hatch speedlings (offensive) There may be more that I've forgotten about now. But these are 7 completely different builds, with each having subvariants are small nuances dependent on the map, what terran does, etc. Notice that only 2 out of them are defensive, which gives zerg the map control and mobility that they are known for. I do have to add that the most common strat is the first one, which is defensive. I only play terran so I don't know what zerg's options currently are, but I'm sure there are no more than 3 or 4 variants, all of them being defensive. | ||
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ven
Germany332 Posts
Reapers for example are so cheap that you don't really sacrifice any economy growth while still being able to force your opponent into a corner. Marines are strong multipurpose units that don't cost gas and let you tech up easily to anything you want without leaving yourself open to anything. The tech structures themselves aren't very expensive either. Salvagable bunkers and reusable addons can hardly be called investments at all. Except for reapers these might not be very problematic on their own but accumulated they allow for too much flexibility than is manageable by the other races and maybe even terran itself for that matter. Not too sure to what extent this holds true or how to get a grip on it but maybe just increasing some building costs and build times and maybe nerf addons and bunkers by reducing salvage returns and adding a short timer before the addon connects to a new building, much like how spine/spore crawlers for zerg need time to reburrow again. A possible solution for reapers in specific might be to increase their mineral and supply cost so massing them will be more of a commitment. As it stands now it barely hurts you if you fail with the reapers. Just the threat of it already puts you in the lead. | ||
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xarva
Austria3 Posts
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JudoChopper
England148 Posts
On August 23 2010 20:16 xarva wrote: IMO they should reintroduce the Lurker, would help zerg quite a bit. Many many people have already requested, but Blizzard doesn't want because they say it overlaps with Banelings... | ||
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Competent
United States406 Posts
And Idra our "Jump suit pro " loses to amateurs because he does things like 1a spams the same old army composition like ultra/ling with 0/3 upgrades while floating 2k/2k mins instead of doing what zerg is best at and tech switching when the opponent has 200/200 food in thors/maraders/tanks. I'm talking about his game vs the "amateur" drewbie. | ||
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Arm4n
United States103 Posts
On August 23 2010 20:30 Competent wrote: And Idra our "Jump suit pro " loses to amateurs because he does things like 1a spams the same old army composition like ultra/ling with 0/3 upgrades while floating 2k/2k mins instead of doing what zerg is best at and tech switching when the opponent has 200/200 food in thors/maraders/tanks. I'm talking about his game vs the "amateur" drewbie. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGQnnMvlAPQ firstly, you should probably watch the conclusion of that game. secondly, the reason drewbie lost that game is because he didn't scout the broodlords. if he had scouted the broodlords then his vikings would have been done in time and the broodlords would have done no damage because corrupters eat shit against vikings and mutas aren't even an option. third, you shouldn't try to down talk people who are much much better than you because it just makes you look silly to everyone else. | ||
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AmunEli
United States35 Posts
On August 23 2010 20:30 Competent wrote: I honestly don't understand the argument here... Because Idra is in a jumpsuit he is better than the "Amateurs" that are better than 2 million other people that play this game? I honestly am getting real tired of hearing if Zerg wins they are better and when Zerg loses Terran is OP. I don't believe it works that way. It is also a very obnoxious way of thinking. And Idra our "Jump suit pro " loses to amateurs because he does things like 1a spams the same old army composition like ultra/ling with 0/3 upgrades while floating 2k/2k mins instead of doing what zerg is best at and tech switching when the opponent has 200/200 food in thors/maraders/tanks. I'm talking about his game vs the "amateur" drewbie. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGQnnMvlAPQ You're kidding right? First, he didn't lose. He out macroed drewbie which was why he was able to throw army after army at drewbie. "0/3 upgrades" is just plain wrong. Idra had 3/3. Drewbie only had a remote chance because of the ridiculous number of choke points that exist on the map, which may speak more to map imbalance than to race imbalance depending how you look at it. | ||
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Tyrran
France777 Posts
On August 23 2010 20:16 xarva wrote: IMO they should reintroduce the Lurker, would help zerg quite a bit. How would the lurker even help the zerg a little bit ? Even IF the lurker would be reintroduced as a T2.5 unit ( Lair+hydra den + upgrade), how would it help the Z defend against the early harass possibilities of the Terran ( Hellions, reapers, banshees, attack ...) ? This is the main problem encoutered by the Z now not the midgame nor the endgame. Lurker doesnt help against mech ( have you seen any lurker in a ZvMech game on BW ?) and banelings deals with bio fine. And marauder have so many PVs that i doubt the lurker would be of any use. Blizzard is right not introducing the lurker back, because zerg has no use nor need for it. What zerg need is a early game help to defend against the mass reaper build for example and/or a way to be able to pressure/harass the opponent in any way. Or, maybe, different maps. ZvT on Metaloposlis or on kulas ravine are twi different world. | ||
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Whalecore
Norway1110 Posts
I really really really hope Blizzard looks at this thread. Make it front page or something. I'm a Protoss player, so I have no first hand experience with the TvZ imbalance, but your comparisons to BW are great, and should really have an impact on future patches. | ||
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911insidejob
United States39 Posts
I was a terran player in BW and I can say I am happy with the changes, they finally made a balanced game as opposed to an imba game like BW. The problem with terran in BW was that terran couldnt freely move its army, like a protoss or a zerg player could do. This was the main imbalance in my view, it was a meta game issue, not necessarily related to unit damage. in SC2 they fixed that with the marauder, a much needed unit that now gives the terran the ability to move out without having mines in place and turrets up. I think alot of the whining comes from protoss and zerg players who wanted to continue to beat up on the weaker terran race. They are upset because they no longer have an easy target that they can just go proxy DT every 1/3.5 games and get a free win. Not sure why Zerg are whining, but I think for similar reasons, they want their muta stack back. zerg and protoss are not very creative races, they just want to get their mutas or their DT's out and end the game then. I think thats why a majority of them are struggling because instead of watching their replays and thinking, what can I do better, or what is a good counter to this strategy, they come on the forums and wonder about when the "balancing" is going to take place. the balancing has already taken place, it was called beta. If you look @ who the top players are, I know the korean zergs are absolutely crushing. the #1 player American player is Huk, a protoss. The next 2 top players are both non-terrans, Slush, whos a zerg, and TT1, a protoss. you dont even have a single terran in the top 3. Most of the people crying for terran to be nerfed, you need to have your patience pants on. there is no need for a patch, and the game is balanced. | ||
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Arm4n
United States103 Posts
the guy who won the IEM ,a terran player, reluctantly admitted the build he used was "strong" and "probably imbalanced". the top level zergs have all said something needs to be changed about this match up. then you have joe blow on team liquid who apparently knows more than all of these people who have dedicated huge amounts of their time to playing sc2 at a much higher level than joeblow. | ||
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abrasion
Australia722 Posts
On August 15 2010 09:34 MasterAsia wrote: For a race with weapons like siege tank and thor, there should be some weak spots like unable to scout/difficult to defend or expand/ vulnerable to early push/can not give early pressure/have to build a lot of static defence even the opponent is not going harassment/,,,. . This is the key part of his post and thoughts on game design in general - he's totally right on this regard. Since units were just 'thrown in to be cool' it makes things very difficult to balance without actual /thought/ | ||
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Darkn3ss
United States717 Posts
On August 23 2010 22:31 911insidejob wrote: I hear alot of whining about how terran is imba and people expected a patch within the first week?? I was a terran player in BW and I can say I am happy with the changes, they finally made a balanced game as opposed to an imba game like BW. The problem with terran in BW was that terran couldnt freely move its army, like a protoss or a zerg player could do. This was the main imbalance in my view, it was a meta game issue, not necessarily related to unit damage. in SC2 they fixed that with the marauder, a much needed unit that now gives the terran the ability to move out without having mines in place and turrets up. I think alot of the whining comes from protoss and zerg players who wanted to continue to beat up on the weaker terran race. They are upset because they no longer have an easy target that they can just go proxy DT every 1/3.5 games and get a free win. Not sure why Zerg are whining, but I think for similar reasons, they want their muta stack back. zerg and protoss are not very creative races, they just want to get their mutas or their DT's out and end the game then. I think thats why a majority of them are struggling because instead of watching their replays and thinking, what can I do better, or what is a good counter to this strategy, they come on the forums and wonder about when the "balancing" is going to take place. the balancing has already taken place, it was called beta. If you look @ who the top players are, I know the korean zergs are absolutely crushing. the #1 player American player is Huk, a protoss. The next 2 top players are both non-terrans, Slush, whos a zerg, and TT1, a protoss. you dont even have a single terran in the top 3. Most of the people crying for terran to be nerfed, you need to have your patience pants on. there is no need for a patch, and the game is balanced. Rofl. I think you were just mad that you couldn't play BW past D+ level with the "UP Terran" so SC2 Terran is perfect for people like you!!! GTFO! There's a reason people didn't like you on ICCup forums... | ||
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Competent
United States406 Posts
On August 23 2010 21:03 Arm4n wrote: firstly, you should probably watch the conclusion of that game. secondly, the reason drewbie lost that game is because he didn't scout the broodlords. if he had scouted the broodlords then his vikings would have been done in time and the broodlords would have done no damage because corrupters eat shit against vikings and mutas aren't even an option. third, you shouldn't try to down talk people who are much much better than you because it just makes you look silly to everyone else. First of all, I never said Idra lost, and it's part of my point. Second yes, he didn't scout the BLs, it was a long game and If I was him I wouldn't expect it either considering Idra had 20 min to do it and was too raging about how terran isn't OP to realize BL's was a viable idea. On August 23 2010 21:05 AmunEli wrote: You're kidding right? First, he didn't lose. He out macroed drewbie which was why he was able to throw army after army at drewbie. "0/3 upgrades" is just plain wrong. Idra had 3/3. Drewbie only had a remote chance because of the ridiculous number of choke points that exist on the map, which may speak more to map imbalance than to race imbalance depending how you look at it. And to you, didn't say he lost, L2Read my post. He didn't get out macro'd Idra stayed 1 base ahead of him as usual. Also Idra was setting at 0/1 while drewbie was 2/0 then he went to 0/2 vs 3/0 then went 0/3 vs 3/1 then went 0/3 vs 3/2 THEN FINALLY he got 2/3 vs 3/3 toward the end. Simply put Drewbie was on top of his game and Idra was slipping. | ||
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st3roids
Greece538 Posts
Is zerg underpowered? I have enough confidence to beat any zerg, no matter how good they are, with a different race. That's how difficult it is for zerg. Zerg are lacking the small details at the moment. It's not terrible but it's very hard to win the brute force battles against other races after mid-late game. ex ogs cool- fruitseller resent interview. | ||
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Catchafire2000
United States227 Posts
For the zerg player, it takes a drone to build a spine crawlere, and then you have to replace that drone that you used to make the crawler/spore. So what's the cost? Well, the 50 mineral it cost the drone, the 100 mineral it cost to purchase, and the 50 mineral it cost to replace the drone. 200 MINERALS!!! but wait, that's not the only thing... TIME!!! The time it took to build and replace the drone has to be factured. And static defenses help, sure, especially when YOUR BASE IS WIDE OPEN for everyone to come and check out. So yeah, while cannons cost 150 minerals (and attack GROUND AND AIR), that's all it takes... Turrets are fantasmic (they also see cloaked units and cost, what, 100 minerals?). All of this adds to a FRUSTRATED ZERG PLAYER! I know mass static defenses are bad, but nothing is wrong with having the option for 1 or 2 early. The protoss can do it, where 1 cannon effectively can hold you off (zerg). A couple turrets in a terrans base will make you think twice about EARLY/MID/LATE scv harass. And they (p/t) don't have to sacrifice a unit to do so. It's just to expensive to have spine crawlers early for the zerg. It's pointless, because once your opponent sees you have this, they can act accordingly (because they are hanging out in your base just waiting for reinforcement to arrive). And spine crawler mobility sucks... they take to long to re-root themselves... | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
On August 23 2010 20:24 JudoChopper wrote: Many many people have already requested, but Blizzard doesn't want because they say it overlaps with Banelings... As a terran player I would be happy to let you have the lurker back if the banelings goes away -.- | ||
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