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I keep getting surprised by how much problems Zerg was facing in ZvT and other games. I tended to ignore such complaints because people kept saying it was the player, and it was all mucked up under other people's spam. The OP does a marvelous job of listing (rather than complaining or shoving truth in our faces) exactly why ZvT has so much problems. It is because of the inability of Zerg to keep the pressure on. When I played the campaign, I thought this is how the Zerg should feel like. Constant pressure at your front door, and you being forced to defend. Zerg being this unbreakable army that kept on spawning and kept pushing you back, and you being forced to go get out a good unit combo with a slight chance of success in your mission (okay, I might exaggerate, but that is how I felt the first time I played it).
Its actually even more surprising that people who know about balance are not listened to/responded to by Blizzard. Strange how Blizzard doesn't seem to acknowledge this forum as much as it seems to comb through its own I guess.
And I still feel that the design philosophy of "let's start from innovation and new unit mechanics and then balance later down the road" is sorta wonky given that their 'innovation' has given Protoss and Terran forces excellent units while giving Zerg interesting but in the long run weaker units in comparison. Shouldn't they have focused on 'how do we make each matchup balanced, interesting and new?' with balance at the forefront.
This OP seems to imply an entire race change in Zerg which probably won't come.....
Can't wait to see what can be done to fix this glaring balance problem. I think that is what is needed from Team Liquid. Everyone knows the problem, how do we fix it?
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Slovakia10 Posts
As i wrote in other posts, zergs shouldnt be able to get Fe and then get tons of pressure on opponents, simply because that is unfair and gives you advantage for nothing. Without reapers/hellions the terran would have almost no option how to fight Fe --- camp/tech/harass ---- wtf tonsofcrapgoingtokillme. If you get Fe you should worry about defence. And yes while being pushed you loose the advantage, making the game even. And i think with some good positioned spine crawlers neither reapers or hellions are very effective.
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On August 25 2010 17:28 Naumo wrote:
As i wrote in other posts, zergs shouldnt be able to get Fe and then get tons of pressure on opponents, simply because that is unfair and gives you advantage for nothing. Without reapers/hellions the terran would have almost no option how to fight Fe --- camp/tech/harass ---- wtf tonsofcrapgoingtokillme. If you get Fe you should worry about defence. And yes while being pushed you loose the advantage, making the game even. And i think with some good positioned spine crawlers neither reapers or hellions are very effective.
How does FE build from zerg gives tons of pressure? I think FE is very defensive build and zerg tries to survive while making as much as possible drones.. or?
And how does that unfair? Zerg needs Hatcheries to keep army sizes same as T/P..
From your post I can tell that you prety much never play zerg.
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Slovakia10 Posts
I wrote that you shouldnt be able to get pressure while going FE, as it is right now. Yes you need hatcheries but if you could fuel Fe/drones and still be pressuring terran then there would be nothing T could do. It was reaction to post above that was about Z unable to pressure etc.
And i know that you need that extra larvae but still having extra base is advantage.
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On August 25 2010 17:35 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 17:28 Naumo wrote:
As i wrote in other posts, zergs shouldnt be able to get Fe and then get tons of pressure on opponents, simply because that is unfair and gives you advantage for nothing. Without reapers/hellions the terran would have almost no option how to fight Fe --- camp/tech/harass ---- wtf tonsofcrapgoingtokillme. If you get Fe you should worry about defence. And yes while being pushed you loose the advantage, making the game even. And i think with some good positioned spine crawlers neither reapers or hellions are very effective.
How does FE build from zerg gives tons of pressure? I think FE is very defensive build and zerg tries to survive while making as much as possible drones.. or? And how does that unfair? Zerg needs Hatcheries to keep army sizes same as T/P.. From your post I can tell that you prety much never play zerg.
Zerg has the option to go all-in at any time, by pumping combat units at the cost of drones. They're the only faction for which expanding immediately increases unit output.
This is an important intimidation factor when playing Zerg. A 2-3 hatch mutalisk build in BW could suddenly throw two dozen speedlings into your base, instead of droning and saving to build mutalisks a minute later.
If Zerg successfully prevents scouting, they can use this potential threat to force defenses and caution from the other player, while investing primarily in drones and tech.
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yeah, your speedligns will scare the shit out of a Terran behind his wall-in...
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On August 25 2010 18:15 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 17:35 Alpina wrote:On August 25 2010 17:28 Naumo wrote:
As i wrote in other posts, zergs shouldnt be able to get Fe and then get tons of pressure on opponents, simply because that is unfair and gives you advantage for nothing. Without reapers/hellions the terran would have almost no option how to fight Fe --- camp/tech/harass ---- wtf tonsofcrapgoingtokillme. If you get Fe you should worry about defence. And yes while being pushed you loose the advantage, making the game even. And i think with some good positioned spine crawlers neither reapers or hellions are very effective.
How does FE build from zerg gives tons of pressure? I think FE is very defensive build and zerg tries to survive while making as much as possible drones.. or? And how does that unfair? Zerg needs Hatcheries to keep army sizes same as T/P.. From your post I can tell that you prety much never play zerg. Zerg has the option to go all-in at any time, by pumping combat units at the cost of drones. They're the only faction for which expanding immediately increases unit output. This is an important intimidation factor when playing Zerg. A 2-3 hatch mutalisk build in BW could suddenly throw two dozen speedlings into your base, instead of droning and saving to build mutalisks a minute later. If Zerg successfully prevents scouting, they can use this potential threat to force defenses and caution from the other player, while investing primarily in drones and tech.
So what if I can pump ton of units in early game? I cannot break through T or P wall anyway, unless you are talking about baneling bust.
I think pretty much every zerg tries to defend and drone as much as possible when FE, unless it is ZvZ or the opponent does not wall off at all.
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On August 25 2010 13:27 ryanAnger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 09:48 jinorazi wrote:
make hydra t1/t1.5? that'll give more options for zerg early game right?
good d against reapers and air. You know what else is good defense against reapers and air? The Queen. Call me crazy but everyone should really be using the Queen. The whole 1 per Hatch deal really isn't as sweet as everyone thinks. For their cost (150 minerals) Queens are really a great unit all around. Having extras on hand are always good.
the problem about that is... queens are slower than overlords off creep, kind of. so the reapers will just rape them easily, with a little bit of micro. and sure, u could use ur queens for tumors, but it wont be easy anyway, because it takes time to get your whole base covered with it.
and with all your queen-spamming your lair will get really late, reducing your chances as zerg to put early pressure (think mutas..)
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On August 25 2010 13:27 ryanAnger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 09:48 jinorazi wrote:
make hydra t1/t1.5? that'll give more options for zerg early game right?
good d against reapers and air. You know what else is good defense against reapers and air? The Queen. Call me crazy but everyone should really be using the Queen. The whole 1 per Hatch deal really isn't as sweet as everyone thinks. For their cost (150 minerals) Queens are really a great unit all around. Having extras on hand are always good.
you do realize that reapers are faster and have longer range than queens right?
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Slovakia10 Posts
There is only one thing that really helps against well controlled reapers and those are spine crawlers in good locations. Other way is just mass ling(not that good), roaches with speed and mutas.
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Irrelative but in lower leagues things are really sucky for zerg.
I logged after 1/5 week to play and i only see 5 zerg in my whole league ffs.
Played few games and at start i was typing zerg sucks just to see responses and peeps where like " "yea man is frustrating , very hard , gl " and such rofl.
but according to blizzard is fine still .
Question is it any tournament lately that terran didnt win ?
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United States47024 Posts
On August 25 2010 18:32 Velr wrote:
yeah, your speedligns will scare the shit out of a Terran behind his wall-in...
This is operating on the assumption that if FE were possible that Terran could afford to stay on 1-base for that long. If fast-expansion builds from Zerg force Rax-CC or Fac-CC builds, then the potential speedling pressure would indeed be a legitimate threat (and add some more depth to the matchup).
Of course, this discussion isn't all that useful because Blizzard isn't going to get rid of the reaper.
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Who said you needed to get rid of the reaper ? Some tweeks to its cost would surely make it harder to harrass with in such amounts we see today ?
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On August 25 2010 14:16 ryanAnger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 13:53 Rabiator wrote:On August 25 2010 13:27 ryanAnger wrote:On August 24 2010 09:48 jinorazi wrote:
make hydra t1/t1.5? that'll give more options for zerg early game right?
good d against reapers and air. You know what else is good defense against reapers and air? The Queen. Call me crazy but everyone should really be using the Queen. The whole 1 per Hatch deal really isn't as sweet as everyone thinks. For their cost (150 minerals) Queens are really a great unit all around. Having extras on hand are always good. That is exactly what I have been writing in every thread for some days, but it seems the Zerg players are a very very stubborn bunch who dont want to change unless they see it in a replay. We had a not so serious saying in WoW: "Screenshot or it aint true", but for SC2 it seems to be a VOD. Trying new things or even thinking about it objectively is really not something most of them seem to be capable of. At the moment Zerg players are complaining that they have no choice in their opening, but that isnt really true. They build masses of Zerglings, since someone has drilled the "one queen per hatchery" mantra into them and they certainly do not build spine crawlers, because Day[9] always accompanies static defenses with the sentence "he didnt want to build those". Its all a bunch of misleading propaganda, which limits the Zerg right now, but if you think about it queens and spine crawlers seem the better choice to defend against Reapers than Zerglings which you have to rebuild constantly. They should rather build a second hatchery in their main base, skip gas for a little and spend the first 100 of that to upgrade the hatchery to lair (for Overlord creep vomit so you can place spine crawlers at key positions without waiting for creep tumors which the Reapers love to snipe) so there are additional tech options faster than usual and protect their base with a gang of queens and spine crawlers while - more or less - only producing drones. This gives them the economy to build troops to counter the stuff which Terrans will build AFTER THE REAPER ... The key is that Zerg need to stop building Zerglings en masse since Terrans have two early units that have bonus damage against them. Since drones are light too the Terrans really want to use these two units, but have to stick with other stuff if they cant. The key is who controls what the other one is building ... This is exactly what I've been doing, and I made a thread about it although I made the title misleading (mass queens) and no one is really bothering to even look at the replays. It's disappointing, but if it comes down to it, and I'm the only dude who does it, and I'm the dude who is consistently winning, power to me, right?
unless you start winning top level tournaments against people like cauthonluck it isn't that viable.
You do realize reapers have longer range and are faster than queens that ARE ON CREEP...nevermind off of it.
You are not the first person to think of this.
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i play terran and sadly i have to agree with you. for all the idiots that's saying l2p. have you even tried zerg ever? the matchup is broken.
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Hello. I do not play Zerg or Terran nor am I particularly good at SC2. However I think a simple fix to Zerg's scouting problems would be to make Overlord speed be available without having to tech to Lair. It is a cheap tech; as it should be, since Scans only cost energy and Observers are relatively cheap as well since you're using the Robo bay for other things.
Thoughts?
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I personnally think the greatest problem is the maps and the Zerg lack of mobility. So many choke points that are easily defendable for a race like the Terran, and it takes so many time for most of Zergs units to turn around that choke point to be behind, or whatever they want. I Another thing that surprises me is that the Hydralisks are light unit without being specialized against any unit. The most versatile unit of the Zerg getting torched by a bunch of Hellions/reapers...
Edit : for the choke points, I mean, beginning of the game your zerglings wants to rush (their speciality) but they are blocked by only 1 marine well protected by this wall. If you're a bit late you won't even scout his base, forcing you to random tech or sacrifice overlords. After, siege tanks and Thors can quite easily defend a choke point.
My quote : "I'll crush your air with my Thors while I'll torch your ground with my marauders/hellions."
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This must have been tested many, many times over. But how would the "BW classic" 2nd hatch on top of ramp work out vs terran? I know that your queen spawns the extra larva the 2nd hatch did in BW. But aren't there other positive aspects of the 2nd hatch on ramp?
1. Easier to defend early preassure with 1 spine at ramp. Queen and lings can block vs. hellions.
2. Pumping drones quicker for main.
3. Larger creep vs. reapers.
However, there are some issues with this as well.
1. 1 base cannot supply enough gas for those mutas that you wanna pump out.
2. you loose a bit of map control (which can however, be reclaimed quite easily)
3. all the other stuff that you can think of.
This comes from a mid-level diamond player with just below 600p who have played a huge amount of BW & WC3.
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On August 26 2010 01:44 Incognoto wrote:
Hello. I do not play Zerg or Terran nor am I particularly good at SC2. However I think a simple fix to Zerg's scouting problems would be to make Overlord speed be available without having to tech to Lair. It is a cheap tech; as it should be, since Scans only cost energy and Observers are relatively cheap as well since you're using the Robo bay for other things.
Thoughts?
This solves EVERYTHING!
Bold out your text so people will never miss the most important post in the thread!!! I think there should be an option to change color and size of the text too!!! If you think it's REALLY the TRUTH you should type in all caps and underline everything too!!!
Awesome post, bro! Can't wait to see more of your genius!!! -.-
PS:
In case my sarcasm was hard to understand... you'll be better off not doing stuff like that. It's a good idea but it's not the best/most important thing in the thread.
On topic:
I wish roach speed was hatch tech as well... I mean you can't really kite zealots effectively or even hope to counter-attack until way after lair. Your units are just too slow for too long... =(
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On August 26 2010 04:52 Darkn3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 01:44 Incognoto wrote:
Hello. I do not play Zerg or Terran nor am I particularly good at SC2. However I think a simple fix to Zerg's scouting problems would be to make Overlord speed be available without having to tech to Lair. It is a cheap tech; as it should be, since Scans only cost energy and Observers are relatively cheap as well since you're using the Robo bay for other things.
Thoughts? This solves EVERYTHING! Bold out your text so people will never miss the most important post in the thread!!! I think there should be an option to change color and size of the text too!!! If you think it's REALLY the TRUTH you should type in all caps and underline everything too!!! Awesome post, bro! Can't wait to see more of your genius!!! -.- PS: In case my sarcasm was hard to understand... you'll be better off not doing stuff like that. It's a good idea but it's not the best/most important thing in the thread. On topic: I wish roach speed was hatch tech as well... I mean you can't really kite zealots effectively or even hope to counter-attack until way after lair. Your units are just too slow for too long... =(
you seem to be pretty douchey, everyone has a right to thier opinon doesnt mean you just trash it like that. learn some respect bud
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