EPTgood d against reapers and air.
Z v T: Current situation and comparison to BW - Page 52
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
good d against reapers and air. | ||
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Darkn3ss
United States717 Posts
On August 23 2010 20:24 JudoChopper wrote: Many many people have already requested, but Blizzard doesn't want because they say it overlaps with Banelings... Yeah... But banelings are retarded!!! Lol I like what someone else has mentioned. Terran is as flexible as a 12 year old gymnast... (is that a good analogy? lol) You can switch add-ons, salvage bunkers, have your own command centers defend the expos, etc... some of these things should be looked into. Like no swappable add-ons to punish a T that makes the wrong tech choice? Punish a T that overreacts and builds too many bunkers? Punish a T by making SCV's return less money when returning it to PF? ONLY allow PF's in range of a mineral field?? I mean Terrans find ways to be even gayer EVERY DAY! (Like blocking the roads on Metalopolis with PF's... Never happened to me but I heard MorroW likes to do that...) -.- What if my hatchery had lurker's subterranean spines... wouldn't that be cool??? And when Hive dies it should spawn Ultralisks imo or like a shitload of banelings... | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 25 2010 03:37 Darkn3ss wrote: Yeah... But banelings are retarded!!! Lol I like what someone else has mentioned. Terran is as flexible as a 12 year old gymnast... (is that a good analogy? lol) You can switch add-ons, salvage bunkers, have your own command centers defend the expos, etc... some of these things should be looked into. Like no swappable add-ons to punish a T that makes the wrong tech choice? Punish a T that overreacts and builds too many bunkers? Punish a T by making SCV's return less money when returning it to PF? ONLY allow PF's in range of a mineral field?? I mean Terrans find ways to be even gayer EVERY DAY! (Like blocking the roads on Metalopolis with PF's... Never happened to me but I heard MorroW likes to do that...) -.- What if my hatchery had lurker's subterranean spines... wouldn't that be cool??? And when Hive dies it should spawn Ultralisks imo or like a shitload of banelings... Zerg has always been perfectly fine in the flexibility department on paper. The problem is that their flexiblity is entirely built into their ability to access vespene gas. Altering your entire unit composition on a moment's notice (and much faster than Terran because of the way larvae work) doesn't actually work out in practice when you only have access to 1-2 bases worth of gas. Fix Zerg's early game issues (like all this reaper bullshit which really shouldn't exist), and you drastically improve their ability to expand/access gas in the midgame, thereby improving their flexibility. As a side note, would someone like to tell me what having Lurkers back in the game would actually help with? They were good in SC1 because pure bio was the dominant unit composition, and because of their interaction with Dark Swarm. In SC2, Dark Swarm is gone, and Infestors/Banelings already make pure bio poor in comparison to biomech/mech. Lurkers are too late for Zerg's early-game woes, and wouldn't actually contribute in mid- and late-game against any of the really troublesome compositions in ZvT. If anything, they'd just screw with the reasonable balance we already have in ZvP. | ||
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Kindred
Canada396 Posts
Terran is the PERFECT race. It has multiple openers and strategies available to it. Nerfing it would be fucking idiotic. Instead buff P and Z so that they have many strats as well. So that they become Perfect. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 25 2010 03:47 TheYango wrote: Fix Zerg's early game issues (like all this reaper bullshit which really shouldn't exist), and you drastically improve their ability to expand/access gas in the midgame, thereby improving their flexibility. Why do you think is the Reaper so imbalanced that it has to be taken out of the game? Maybe the Zerg havent found the correct response yet? Personally I think that is the case, because they have settled on their standards and never deviate from them. - build pool on X, maybe add a hatchery on Z - build gas on Y and harvest 100 gas - immediately get a queen and six lings when that finishes - immediately get ling speed up and continue making lings and drones as needed If you look at the units produced you notice that they are a) melee and b) light units with the exception of the one queen (usually three queens for two hatcheries). Maybe there are other fighting units to produce, which do not die as easily as to the Reapers as the Zerglings do? IMO there are: Queens and Spine Crawlers. Sure enough the Terran can mass the Reapers and eventually one-shot the crawlers, but you can protect your base without losing a ton of Zerglings if you stick to quite a few more queens and spine crawlers than is usual atm. The key point is saving resources and having to rebuild the light and weak Zerglings is somewhat of a waste and continuing to produce these units simply pushes you into a corner with practically no air defense and a ton of light units, which can easily be abused by the Terrans if he should switch to Hellions or even Banshees. So I am not convinced that there is no hope for Zerg atm and that the Reaper needs to be changed in any way until some players have tried this "high hp unit defense" against the current trend of mass Reapers. The whole point is to save resources and get additional tech up to be prepared for the Terrans next steps and "a penny saved is a penny earned". Queens actually dont need larvae and spine crawlers require far fewer larvae than a ton of Zerglings does. How many more drones this allows you to make is up to the testing of the players. | ||
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brad drac
Ireland202 Posts
I find it pretty sad how the majority of people are just so blindly certain of some massive racial imbalance that they call any neat new styles that develop imba as soon as they're proven to be effective. I can't remember if all the terran players were calling banelings imba when they were losing to busts every other game, but we can all see how that turned out. | ||
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SpicyCrab
402 Posts
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st3roids
Greece538 Posts
ogs zenio vs som1 , the first has 180 apm the second barerly tops 60. I wonder what will have been the case if terran had 180 apm and zerg 50 - loose with the first reaper harass ? | ||
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cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
Banelings are not the same as Lurkers. I don't get why Blizzard think their roles overlap. They do AoE damage and are effective against bio.. that's about it. Banelings are suicide and are melee range. Lurkers are ranged + attack while burrowed. Templars and Colossus are effective against bio and deal AoE damage.. yet Blizzard thought it was fine to put them both in the game. There are several units that carry out similar roles, but can deviate into different strategies. Just because we don't use every single unit every single game, doesn't mean we don't want them. Why not at least let us test them? Terran players don't quite understand what Zerg players have to go through, I think playing random has given me the taste of the matchup on both sides. Terran really has free reign on being aggressive and having easy scouting options. You can almost always see what Zerg is going to do, which is not all the different compared to BW since scans existed in BW as well, but the problem is that once the army is scanned, zerg cant utilize the same muta/lurker harass that they had in BW. We know that while mutas are still good, they're harassing ability is lower than their BW counterpart, and lurkers just plain don't exist. So many Zerg players I see just go for mutas now. Roaches and Hydras are just too slow and easy to catch off guard. Mutas at least keep the Terran on its feet and delay the Terran moving out early. But this just becomes stale when you have one solid strategy to hold the Terran in. Zerg really needs another option or two to deviate Terran from their original plan because right now, Terran opening are just far too comfortable from any early zerg harass besides 6pool or baneling busts, both of which are cheese. | ||
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KaRnaGe[cF]
United States355 Posts
On August 25 2010 08:55 cHaNg-sTa wrote: I agree on that ZvT just feels completely different now. Zerg has map control and needed to hurt Terran's economy, and had different options on how to do so. Lurkers, Mutas, Speedlings, even Hydra busts. But now Roaches and Hydras are too slow and get raped off creep, speedlings are ineffective early when Terran walls off. I almost always just tech to Mutas now. I feel that they are the only cost efficient units that Zerg has pre-tier3, and that's only if you don't screw up and instantly lose everything. Banelings are not the same as Lurkers. I don't get why Blizzard think their roles overlap. They do AoE damage and are effective against bio.. that's about it. Banelings are suicide and are melee range. Lurkers are ranged + attack while burrowed. Templars and Colossus are effective against bio and deal AoE damage.. yet Blizzard thought it was fine to put them both in the game. There are several units that carry out similar roles, but can deviate into different strategies. Just because we don't use every single unit every single game, doesn't mean we don't want them. Why not at least let us test them? Terran players don't quite understand what Zerg players have to go through, I think playing random has given me the taste of the matchup on both sides. Terran really has free reign on being aggressive and having easy scouting options. You can almost always see what Zerg is going to do, which is not all the different compared to BW since scans existed in BW as well, but the problem is that once the army is scanned, zerg cant utilize the same muta/lurker harass that they had in BW. We know that while mutas are still good, they're harassing ability is lower than their BW counterpart, and lurkers just plain don't exist. So many Zerg players I see just go for mutas now. Roaches and Hydras are just too slow and easy to catch off guard. Mutas at least keep the Terran on its feet and delay the Terran moving out early. But this just becomes stale when you have one solid strategy to hold the Terran in. Zerg really needs another option or two to deviate Terran from their original plan because right now, Terran opening are just far too comfortable from any early zerg harass besides 6pool or baneling busts, both of which are cheese. I thought lurkers would be a good idea too until i played the map with lurkers built in. Lurkers just dont do what you need them to do. Banelings pretty much fill the role of the lurker tbh. Marauders just make lurkers pretty much useless because of their high hp and ability to stim and do massive amounts of damage to armored units. | ||
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Anzuu
United States4 Posts
On August 25 2010 03:57 Kindred wrote: Why do people want to Nerf Terran? Terran is the PERFECT race. It has multiple openers and strategies available to it. Nerfing it would be fucking idiotic. Instead buff P and Z so that they have many strats as well. So that they become Perfect. I agree, nerfing would be senseless. Terran is extremely well designed--P and Z just need to be brought to the same level. | ||
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Zerksys
United States569 Posts
The next problem is that zerg players have no units which can lay siege to a terran player's base. I don't believe that I've ever seen a single replay of a terran and a zerg on equal equal footing where the terran is being contained. There is no massable siege unit such as the lurker (although the lurker does overlap with the baneling). Currently all terran needs to do to get the zerg to run away is siege up a couple tanks and build a missile turret or two. Fix these two problems and the zerg will be completely playable. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On August 25 2010 11:57 Anzuu wrote: I agree, nerfing would be senseless. Terran is extremely well designed--P and Z just need to be brought to the same level. Yeah I really agree with this too. Regardless of winrate I feel like Terrans are really well designed while P and Z design suffers a bit. Protoss seems to reliant on certain effective timings to win while Zerg is a little too reactionary without influencing their opponents choices & a little too much of a "You can't beat my army in the open late game, but I can't attack your base so we're just gonna sit here while I expand and macro up". Don't get me wrong Z and P both have cool stuff, but I just think Terran is the best designed race right now. They're really the only race that lets players really bring their own unique styles to it. Yeah you might have 'aggressive' zerg vs 'macro' zerg, but when you watch games where players like DiMaga and Idra win now a days, they tend to still look very similar to me. | ||
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RifleCow
Canada637 Posts
Alrite first I've been trying to get out roach warren as fast as I can while at the same time building an expansion. Don't know what would be the best way to do this but I've been attempting to go 12 pool with a double extractor trick and overlord on 12. Then I follow this up with a 16 hatchery 15 gas and a roach warren as soon as spawning pool finishes, BEFORE queen. This is something that hasn't been attempted a lot, roach warren before queen , and quite frankly if you get 2 roaches per base you're safe against the early pressure of reapers until they get to about 6-8. Because of this you are able to get fast lair while pumping drones on 4 roaches. The only real downside is the late queen, but you get your expansion up so fast so the econ boost really makes up for it. In the end you spend about 300/100 for the 4 roaches in comparison you would get 8 lings and ling speed for the same price. Anyways....like I said previously I don't think zergs should stay in the mindset of, "two queens out as fast as possible". I think we should play around with proper queen timing mayb getting roaches first? Mayb skipping everything and going fast lair, I don't know, but play around with your queen timings might be important. | ||
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ryanAnger
United States838 Posts
On August 24 2010 09:48 jinorazi wrote: make hydra t1/t1.5? that'll give more options for zerg early game right? good d against reapers and air. You know what else is good defense against reapers and air? The Queen. Call me crazy but everyone should really be using the Queen. The whole 1 per Hatch deal really isn't as sweet as everyone thinks. For their cost (150 minerals) Queens are really a great unit all around. Having extras on hand are always good. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 25 2010 13:27 ryanAnger wrote: You know what else is good defense against reapers and air? The Queen. Call me crazy but everyone should really be using the Queen. The whole 1 per Hatch deal really isn't as sweet as everyone thinks. For their cost (150 minerals) Queens are really a great unit all around. Having extras on hand are always good. That is exactly what I have been writing in every thread for some days, but it seems the Zerg players are a very very stubborn bunch who dont want to change unless they see it in a replay. We had a not so serious saying in WoW: "Screenshot or it aint true", but for SC2 it seems to be a VOD. Trying new things or even thinking about it objectively is really not something most of them seem to be capable of. At the moment Zerg players are complaining that they have no choice in their opening, but that isnt really true. They build masses of Zerglings, since someone has drilled the "one queen per hatchery" mantra into them and they certainly do not build spine crawlers, because Day[9] always accompanies static defenses with the sentence "he didnt want to build those". Its all a bunch of misleading propaganda, which limits the Zerg right now, but if you think about it queens and spine crawlers seem the better choice to defend against Reapers than Zerglings which you have to rebuild constantly. They should rather build a second hatchery in their main base, skip gas for a little and spend the first 100 of that to upgrade the hatchery to lair (for Overlord creep vomit so you can place spine crawlers at key positions without waiting for creep tumors which the Reapers love to snipe) so there are additional tech options faster than usual and protect their base with a gang of queens and spine crawlers while - more or less - only producing drones. This gives them the economy to build troops to counter the stuff which Terrans will build AFTER THE REAPER ... The key is that Zerg need to stop building Zerglings en masse since Terrans have two early units that have bonus damage against them. Since drones are light too the Terrans really want to use these two units, but have to stick with other stuff if they cant. The key is who controls what the other one is building ... | ||
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comis
United States333 Posts
Does that not make you think something is wrong with the game? They designed T then it's like afterward they did the least amount of work required to make Z sometimes be able to survive. | ||
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ryanAnger
United States838 Posts
On August 25 2010 13:53 Rabiator wrote: That is exactly what I have been writing in every thread for some days, but it seems the Zerg players are a very very stubborn bunch who dont want to change unless they see it in a replay. We had a not so serious saying in WoW: "Screenshot or it aint true", but for SC2 it seems to be a VOD. Trying new things or even thinking about it objectively is really not something most of them seem to be capable of. At the moment Zerg players are complaining that they have no choice in their opening, but that isnt really true. They build masses of Zerglings, since someone has drilled the "one queen per hatchery" mantra into them and they certainly do not build spine crawlers, because Day[9] always accompanies static defenses with the sentence "he didnt want to build those". Its all a bunch of misleading propaganda, which limits the Zerg right now, but if you think about it queens and spine crawlers seem the better choice to defend against Reapers than Zerglings which you have to rebuild constantly. They should rather build a second hatchery in their main base, skip gas for a little and spend the first 100 of that to upgrade the hatchery to lair (for Overlord creep vomit so you can place spine crawlers at key positions without waiting for creep tumors which the Reapers love to snipe) so there are additional tech options faster than usual and protect their base with a gang of queens and spine crawlers while - more or less - only producing drones. This gives them the economy to build troops to counter the stuff which Terrans will build AFTER THE REAPER ... The key is that Zerg need to stop building Zerglings en masse since Terrans have two early units that have bonus damage against them. Since drones are light too the Terrans really want to use these two units, but have to stick with other stuff if they cant. The key is who controls what the other one is building ... This is exactly what I've been doing, and I made a thread about it although I made the title misleading (mass queens) and no one is really bothering to even look at the replays. It's disappointing, but if it comes down to it, and I'm the only dude who does it, and I'm the dude who is consistently winning, power to me, right? | ||
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Ghad
Norway2551 Posts
On August 25 2010 03:57 Kindred wrote: Why do people want to Nerf Terran? Terran is the PERFECT race. It has multiple openers and strategies available to it. Nerfing it would be fucking idiotic. Instead buff P and Z so that they have many strats as well. So that they become Perfect. Agreed. | ||
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kingcomrade
United States115 Posts
Maybe the Zerg havent found the correct response yet? You're saying in 3 weeks people haven't figured out whether speedlings, banelings, roaches, or mass queens (lol) counter reapers? Like there's some magical tier 1 unit that nobody has discovered yet, until some pro player goes "hey what is this button on my building tab?" | ||
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