EPTZ v T: Current situation and comparison to BW - Page 54
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sage_francis
France1823 Posts
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haterade
7 Posts
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caution.slip
United States775 Posts
On August 26 2010 05:02 encryptedamf wrote: you seem to be pretty douchey, everyone has a right to thier opinon doesnt mean you just trash it like that. learn some respect bud While darkness wasn't the most polite with his response it's still true. Wishlisting for solutions does nothing to advance the game or find a solution to a problem. Its just tiresome when there is a plethora of wishlist posts. Maybe zerg FE just isn't a valid strategy for SC2 (it's too punishable by terrans). It wasn't standard in BW for a long time. Maybe zerg needs a strategy that trumps a certain fotm terran strategy so terrans can't blindly open however they want. Maybe zerg needs to put pressure early with a ranged unit to force a terran response and then the zerg can expand the way terrans did to toss in BW. Theorycrafting is more useful than wishlisting, and actually trying out strategies/posting results is more useful than theorycrafting | ||
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Sharpiez
United States30 Posts
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atarianimo
United States82 Posts
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warshop
Canada490 Posts
I play Random in the ladder, but haven't played that many games. However, in tournaments, I play Terran. An interesting point (and a bit absurd), I can easily go aggressive and at the same fast expand, while maintaining pressure on my opponent (TvZ, TvP). Even, sometimes, upon losing so many units in my initial attack, I am able to easily recover, since if I forget to macro, I can call down Mules/Supply. That, in my opinion, is too forgiven. No other race will be as forgiven as Terran. When I play Zerg and forget to spawn larva early game, I'm done, plain and simple. My two cents on the matter. | ||
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sage_francis
France1823 Posts
- Bring back burrow on tech1 - Z can make overseer without lair tech for the same price - Transfusion 25 mana instead of 50 - One hotkey preset for all the overlords (like W for warpgates) are little things who can help zerg without disturbing the other mus ? | ||
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Karkadinn
United States132 Posts
On August 26 2010 05:26 Sharpiez wrote: I don't think this is always the case but I think some people need to realize that it's a different game and that, quite possibly, the gameplay for zerg in this game may be totally different than it was for BW. What I find oddly disturbing is how people are expecting TvZ to be like it was. I do think the MU is imbalanced but not quite as bad as it is made out to be. I think if people would approach zerg with a totally new outlook they would be better equipped to develop the race. The issue is not that people were expecting the exact same gameplay from Zerg, as it is that they were expecting an upgrade in gameplay, or at least a sidegrade. What they got was a downgrade, while Protoss got a sidegrade, and Terran got an upgrade. People wanted the things they liked about Zerg retained, or at least replaced with something even better or equally as good... and that didn't happen. To paraphrase one beta forum poster, Zerg devolved while the diversity of their enemies increased. | ||
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Retgery
Canada1229 Posts
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Johnny_Vegas
United States239 Posts
On August 26 2010 05:48 sage_francis wrote: Giving ensnare to queens is maybe a bit too much. - Bring back burrow on tech1 - Z can make overseer without lair tech for the same price - Transfusion 25 mana instead of 50 - One hotkey preset for all the overlords (like W for warpgates) are little things who can help zerg without disturbing the other mus ? -Can't move burrow to tier 1 because detection is very limited until tier 2, thus making roach too strong at tier 1. -Overseer at tier 1 is possibly good but would give zerg mobile detection (with the exception of comsat) waaaay before the other races. Mobile detection at tier 2 is most likely a general game design decision that Blizzard had, to make the game more interesting. Ubiquitous detection would make cloaked/burrowed units relatively much weaker, meaning that segment of units will be underused, when what Blizzard wants to see is a richer mix of unit use. -Transfusion @25 mana is sort of ridiculous. Even Medivacs only heal 3 life per 1 energy, with your suggestion Queens would heal 5 life per 1 energy (125 healed/25 energy = 5). They'd be much better than Medivacs at healing given that they already heal instantly, whereas Medivacs heal quite slowly. Since this spell can be cast efficiently on every zerg unit but lings and banelings, the entire Zerg army would be much much stronger with just a few queens around. Queens are already one of the best units in the game for their 150 mineral price. -A hotkey for all overlords is your best idea by far but doesn't solve any problems really. | ||
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Darkn3ss
United States717 Posts
On August 26 2010 05:02 encryptedamf wrote: you seem to be pretty douchey, everyone has a right to thier opinon doesnt mean you just trash it like that. learn some respect bud I was talking bout the fact that he bolded the whole post, not about his idea... Yes, everyone has a right to have an opinion and to express it on these forums... but I don't think everyone can just go ahead and post in all cap/bold... I'm sure a mod would tell you exactly the same thing but you'll also end up with a warning or if someone is having a bad day - a ban! Take it as a friendly advice, not as a "douchey" trolling attempt. | ||
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Johnny_Vegas
United States239 Posts
Hatchery produces 1 larvae every 12 seconds, instead of 1 every 15 seconds. This change means that a hatchery could produce 5 units per minute instead of just 4. If you add a queen that regularly spawns larvae this goes to 11 per minute (instead of the current 10). A subtle change, but powerful, in that it will free up the Zerg in the early game to be able to make drones AND an army, not one or the other. This change won't affect things as much during the mid game, as larvae should be generally plentiful anyway, and even less so in the late game. Another really interesting benefit to this change is the tension it brings to Queen use. Knowing that hatcheries generate larvae slightly faster on their own, it will not always be mandatory to make a queen right away. A second hatchery before your first queen becomes a more viable choice. Creep Tumors and Transfusion become more valuable relative to the current champion Spawn Larvae. With this change it will favor more aggressive expansion by the zerg, a signature zerg attribute. It will also contribute to zerg's unit count being higher, bringing us back to the old "swarming" zerg style of play. This should help early game zerg significantly, but would have to be playtested to ensure it would not be too overpowering. Of special note is the ramifications it could have versus the Protoss. 1 Larvae per minute more means 2 more zerglings, which just might be too strong. | ||
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oddeye
Canada716 Posts
Some things: Banelings are bad, they cost as much as a roach and you lose the baneling to damage and it can be countered by good micro, they are practically useless late game because the marauder take a lot of damage and upgrades, plus tanks. Overseer is what you scout with, changeling isn't very good middle game because good people will usually see it anyway and kill it. Using contaminate is much more useful, I still think they should add another spell whatever it may be an upgrade for late game or something. Zerg units need to be slightly faster out of creep, because late game the terran can very easily make a raven and destroy every creep tumour they see. That makes you really slow. Every other drop unit (Warp prism, mediavac) actually got an upgrade, in contrast, zerg drops did not get anything new. The worst is really the lack of late game options, infestor is a middle game with a late game use unit but it cannot really beat the big ball of terran. It is true that ultralisk are rather good but with the thor super cannon and placement of tanks and marauder. Terran can counter pretty much everything once they are late game and have a good production. Burrow infestor middle game is good, but my guess is that people will maybe counter attack or just get used to it and get a turret in front of their exp mid game. | ||
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MaestroSC
United States2073 Posts
Also the mobility issue... you have a stronger, faster army, the only way for us to have a chance is to outmaneuver a stronger faster army? GL with that. The only ladders Zerg are viable is 3v3 and 4v4 imo. Even in 2v2 if you go against double terran u become semi-useless. | ||
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EppE
United States221 Posts
On August 26 2010 06:15 Johnny_Vegas wrote: -Overseer at tier 1 is possibly good but would give zerg mobile detection (with the exception of comsat) waaaay before the other races. Mobile detection at tier 2 is most likely a general game design decision that Blizzard had, to make the game more interesting. Ubiquitous detection would make cloaked/burrowed units relatively much weaker, meaning that segment of units will be underused, when what Blizzard wants to see is a richer mix of unit use. I'm not saying I disagree with you but Zerg got fairly early cloack detection in BW and cloaked units still had their place.  | ||
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JPSke
United States54 Posts
This matchup is very skewed right now because you have these one base aggressive builds putting a lot of strain on a fast expand build, which for any other race would be considered normal, but since Zerg seemingly has to fast expand people feel it is unbalanced. In no other matchup is fast expanding against an early pressure considered viable. If you look at Marrow's tvt in the IEM he had what he thought was a safe fast expand build that he had used many times, but every time he tried it in the tournament(TLO, Tarson) he lost. It just makes sense to me that if one person dedicates their resources to attacking and the other one to economy the person who is attacking will have a military advantage. So what makes one basing into an expansion less viable for zerg than for the other races? Is there no way to come up with a more stable early game build that isn't as gas intensive and allows you to get your initial expansion at a time on par with the other races and even perform some early aggression?If not, why isn't the complaining about gas costs or the other limiting factors in the Zerg tree? Why isn't there a hatchery count(much like a barracks count for Terran) that coincides with the level of production capacity you have per mineral line? If I have to build x number of barracks and refineries in order to make use of my income from one fully saturated set of gas and minerals, why isn't there an X amount of hatcheries number(ie, more than one) for Zerg? If someone could explain these things to me I would very much appreciate it. I'm sure they've been discussed but I have not been able to find them. I just do not understand why the concept of a one base advantage is gamechanging and monumental in every other matchup, to the point where fast expanding is considered dangerous or gimmicky, yet for Zerg it is supposed to be the default strategy. | ||
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dave333
United States915 Posts
Other races have relatively lower gas costs with marines/zealots being very solid staples and need not needing as many gas intensive units. Tanks are only 100 for example, and you don't need nearly as many tanks as mutalisk. Likewise, 2 stalkers are 100 gas and immortals are 100. You need a lot of hydras to be effective, but they are 50 gas. Roaches are not particularly useful anyway, and they are best paired with hydras which=gas. Banelings of course, cost gas and you need quite a few of them. Zerg needs a lot of gas to be effective, and that is why they need expos. Zerg is meant to be the expanding race, that is why hatches are 50 and why they are supposed to get gas. This has always been true, but in SC2 it is considerably more difficult to FE than BW. Basically, zerg needs to fast expand to get the gas it needs to get into midgame on an even basis with the other races. The problem now is that FE is extremely risky thanks to reapers and 2 gate pressure and such, putting zerg in a sticky situation. Risk losing the xpo and falling behind, or fall behind because they are entering the mid game off 1 base. Extra hatcheries are helpful late gameish and can forgive forgetting to spawn larva, but if you plan on playing to the best of your ability, a hatchery at the expand is just so much better as an investment. If you get a hatchery inbase before a hatchery for expoing, it's 300 minerals that can't do much, and you'll need another 300 to expand again., 1 basing and not having as much gas while having 2 hatches loaded with larva simply means lings and drones and ovies, when what you really need are more mutas/hydras/roaches/blings/infestors (everything else!) 1 basing can be done (watch Check) but it requires really excellent micro, micro that most people don't possess. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On August 26 2010 05:48 sage_francis wrote: Giving ensnare to queens is maybe a bit too much. - Bring back burrow on tech1 - Z can make overseer without lair tech for the same price - Transfusion 25 mana instead of 50 - One hotkey preset for all the overlords (like W for warpgates) are little things who can help zerg without disturbing the other mus ? My god. It's like finding a fucking diamond in the toilet after your shit out 10 hot pockets. This has got to be the simplest and best solution to zerg's issues earlygame. Zerg can now actually scout if necessary, and doesn't have to rush lair anymore for detection so they have 1 less thing to worry about (remember, detection on overlords was never lair tech in BW anyways.) People should seriously give this consideration. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2259 Posts
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
8 of those losts are due to terrans. I've lost to (not in order) - Mass Reapers to Marauders (when I had enough roaches) - Mass Hellions drop everywhere - Huge marine all in push - Hellions to tanks to thors bunk. Push only when 7 thors, 10 hellions and 12 tanks. Never could do shit with mutas since he was pushing with turrets and had like bajillions of turrets in his base. I had 2 extra expands... didn't do shit - A timing push with 4 hellions, 2 marauders and 10 marines (I must admit I sucked bad... but still it was freaking easy for him) - I lost vs a 4 hellion push (was bad but it was on scrap station so it was hard to block the hellions he fried over 25 drones) - I lost to a reaper fast expand. I survived the reaper part... I just could never expand. Not that I haven't tried. So basicaly here is my problem with terrans. You might be able to help me... I might just suck.... 1. I find that reapers are freaking frustrating and REALLY forgiving for the terran but again not forgiving for the zerg. The reaper after the 1st part of the game (which is harass) isn't used much aka. not used at all. Why is it such cheap and good? Why is this unit exist? I mean... they already have siege units and hellions to burn thru drones... why are they so f'ing good? Hell they can kill queens and roaches (their counters) since they are faster and have better range. It's ridiculous imo. 2. Why can they force us to go roaches and they punish us with marauders sooo fast? I mean... it's impossible to get a decent amount of roaches and get a good amount of speedlings to deal with marauders after. How in hell can they support 5 rax and also how the hell can they expand before zergs can?? 3. How on earth are you supposed to win vs a terran that turtles till he gets critical ammount of tanks/thors/hellion. Hell in that game I had 5 ultralisk about 20 roaches and many many zerglins and maybe 10 mutalisk. I lost everyting in a blink of an eye. After taughts I could have went broodlords but it would have been useless as he had 2 starports + reactors. 4. Hellions... why are they soooo good? I mean... they are fast they shoot from one base to another and they litteraly 2 shot lings and drones. How come a 200min unit be that good? 5. Why do I always feel on the defense? I personaly use alot of nydus and shit. I use the "low mobility advatange" that zerg has... but it seems that terran just a+move and win. Anyways I'm freaking tired of this bullshiet. Would like to understand the damn matchup cause right now it's ridiculous. It's the only reason i'm not yet in the 1000ish I win 80% of my protoss matchup, 60-70% of my zerg matchup and only like 10-20% of my terran matchup. Would like to understand HOW on earth a 20-40apm dude can kick a 150apm dude in the arse that bad! | ||
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