EPTit is a bit silly hellions are minerals only
Z v T: Current situation and comparison to BW - Page 55
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dave333
United States915 Posts
it is a bit silly hellions are minerals only | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
Each race played perfectly or near that level can be very well balanced, tournaments prove that. But at a random diamond skill level play ZvT is too often a peacefull travel for terran because they can't be punish enough for their mistakes but zerg players tend to lose the match if they do one or two mistakes on their part. It's not unbalanced.. it's just deeply unfair. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 26 2010 01:17 st3roids wrote: Irrelative but in lower leagues things are really sucky for zerg. I logged after 1/5 week to play and i only see 5 zerg in my whole league ffs. Played few games and at start i was typing zerg sucks just to see responses and peeps where like " "yea man is frustrating , very hard , gl " and such rofl. but according to blizzard is fine still . Question is it any tournament lately that terran didnt win ? Its just a problem of the "whine propaganda" ... | ||
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Zoltan
United States656 Posts
Zerg will win a long drawn out war of attrition. Zerg's ability to take multiple bases quickly allows them to replensh army units faster. If the zerg player can find a way to continuously engage the T forces without over-committing (and getting their harvesters roasted), they can hold out and win. I'm not saying the matchup is perfectly balanced, however it seems balanced around the following: The longer zerg lives the less chance the terran has of winning. As a T i feel like if im not attacking the zerg im losing, so playing aggressive is my only option. Sure i have like a dozen different aggressive options, but playing defensive simply dosen't work. Just my 2 cents in a debate that will end with a zerg buff and a terran nerf. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 26 2010 13:54 Noocta wrote: Terran are just too forgiving compare to Zerg. Each race played perfectly or near that level can be very well balanced, tournaments prove that. But at a random diamond skill level play ZvT is too often a peacefull travel for terran because they can't be punish enough for their mistakes but zerg players tend to lose the match if they do one or two mistakes on their part. It's not unbalanced.. it's just deeply unfair. Personally I think the problem is that Terrans have several low-tech units that have bonus damage against light (Drones and Zerglings) and that the Zerg are sticking to building Zerglings which makes them vulnerable to Terran. If they stop using these units and instead build queens and spine crawlers they could possibly keep the Reapers out of their mineral line(s) and get the time needed to get other tech up to kill the Terran units (Mutas, lots of Roaches, Baneling mines ... whatever) | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On August 26 2010 13:59 Rabiator wrote: Personally I think the problem is that Terrans have several low-tech units that have bonus damage against light (Drones and Zerglings) and that the Zerg are sticking to building Zerglings which makes them vulnerable to Terran. If they stop using these units and instead build queens and spine crawlers they could possibly keep the Reapers out of their mineral line(s) and get the time needed to get other tech up to kill the Terran units (Mutas, lots of Roaches, Baneling mines ... whatever) Yeah of course they are some solutions to an infinite amount of terrans strategy. I think the mass Reapers one would find a solution pretty quickly. ( even with Spine being one shooted by 10 Reapers tho, stupid C-30 thing ) I was talking of the match-up in a more general way. | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
this could shake things up a bit | ||
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pieisamazing
United States1234 Posts
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Kvz
United States463 Posts
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
Reaper is a fast harassing infantry unit. what part of fast harassing infantry unit did blizzard think meant doing INSANE damage to buildings!!!! the reason spines cant do anything to reapers is because they get 1 shotted by most reaper squads. if they were to removed the d38 charge(or at least weaken it so its not an imba ima blow up your main hatch in 3 shots grenade) spines would help defend against reapers. spines wouldnt completely remove the use of the reaper, simply because they can tank a few shots of the spine kill like 10 drones and be out whilst losing what 3 reapers? they'd still keep the zerg contained until mutas pop. and considering the insane build time or spine crawlers, zerg players would have to prepare in advance meaning although we can FE a bit better we'd still have to put up static defense which would delay our advantage of FE'ing and it'd make reaper harass just that. Harass. "not ima use this and then you will be behind and my mid game push will win the game harass" my opinion. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
I am still waiting for high-level use of late Reapers vs Protoss. Wait until the armies are going to town on each other > drop 8 reapers in Ps mineral line > win Even if P notices in time to save his probes, he isn't going to be able to save his nexus. And losing a whole nexus to 8 reapers in about 5 volleys is just stupid. | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On August 26 2010 15:18 Jermstuddog wrote: Yup, the special attack vs buildings is retarded. I am still waiting for high-level use of late Reapers vs Protoss. Wait until the armies are going to town on each other > drop 8 reapers in Ps mineral line > win Even if P notices in time to save his probes, he isn't going to be able to save his nexus. And losing a whole nexus to 8 reapers in about 5 volleys is just stupid. heck if i was T player, id do just that, but rather then the nexus id take out all the pylons so the toss player will have no reinforcements. | ||
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GreatestThreat
United States631 Posts
On August 26 2010 14:50 RampancyTW wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145740 this could shake things up a bit I agree, this build seems like that sweet middle ground between early aggression and economy zerg has needed but no one was looking for because they just assumed it didn't exist due to all the whining. I fully support Blizzard in taking their time and being patient with balance changes, because the metagame is still developing drastically. If anyone remembers a month ago what the main gripe was about Terran, it was mech builds. Now, zero balance patches later, pure mech is pretty much unheard of and USELESS versus mass mutalisks. If there's anything that needs to change soon, it's the map pool. That might be the one and only major problem with ZvT balance. | ||
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Disastorm
United States922 Posts
On August 26 2010 16:28 GreatestThreat wrote: I agree, this build seems like that sweet middle ground between early aggression and economy zerg has needed but no one was looking for because they just assumed it didn't exist due to all the whining. I fully support Blizzard in taking their time and being patient with balance changes, because the metagame is still developing drastically. If anyone remembers a month ago what the main gripe was about Terran, it was mech builds. Now, zero balance patches later, pure mech is pretty much unheard of and USELESS versus mass mutalisks. If there's anything that needs to change soon, it's the map pool. That might be the one and only major problem with ZvT balance. I disagree, mech is still as OP as it was before its just overshadowed by the new reaper build which is even more OP. Terran can basically choose whether to go OP or Mega OP or probably even God Mode Instant Win if they want. I can't believe you even remotely suggest the possibility that they don't need nerfs. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 26 2010 17:39 Disastorm wrote: I disagree, mech is still as OP as it was before its just overshadowed by the new reaper build which is even more OP. Terran can basically choose whether to go OP or Mega OP or probably even God Mode Instant Win if they want. I can't believe you even remotely suggest the possibility that they don't need nerfs. If Terrans were REALLY as OP as you suggest there would never ever be a Zerg winning against Terrans. If you had watched the IEM for example you might have noticed that the Zerg actually had won quite a few matches against Terrans ... even with the new "Mega OP" build. I would suggest thinking before posting and to try to be objective. There are two things which hamper Zerg atm: 1. The negative propaganda which Zerg are subjecting themselves to. This prevents them from thinking anything creative and puts them in the endles "Terran is overpowered, Terran is overpowered, Terran is overpowered" mantra. 2. The "tiny" Blizzard maps which make super fast rushing strategies possible. So please stop whining about Terrans being overpowered and complain about the REAL issues. Btw., no one has ever said that an RTS is supposed to be easy, so if you play Zerg and have trouble defending against Terran you simply need to practice more until you learn what to do. | ||
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GreatestThreat
United States631 Posts
On August 26 2010 17:39 Disastorm wrote: I disagree, mech is still as OP as it was before its just overshadowed by the new reaper build which is even more OP. Terran can basically choose whether to go OP or Mega OP or probably even God Mode Instant Win if they want. I can't believe you even remotely suggest the possibility that they don't need nerfs. Are you serious? Did you watch the same IEM tournament that I did? Pure mech got shut down, HARD. Biomech seems to be on pretty even ground with muta/ling/bling compositions with some infestor support once the zerg player manages to make it into the midgame. Even the pro players who are of the opinion that Terran is OP don't think mech is the problem - IdrA himself has said it's their early timing pushes that are broken, and TLO who plays both T and Z has said he doesn't believe the matchup is imbalanced at all, and he has a very strong ZvT win record and two day9 dailies to back it up. If the maps were made a good 50% larger and had less abusable cliffs and chokes I can't actually think of anything terran has that definitely needs to be nerfed. Maybe auto-repair. And full salvage on bunkers. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 26 2010 18:26 GreatestThreat wrote: If the maps were made a good 50% larger and had less abusable cliffs and chokes I can't actually think of anything terran has that definitely needs to be nerfed. Maybe auto-repair. And full salvage on bunkers. Full salvage on bunkers is the equivalent to the Spine Crawlers ability to uproot and plant itself somewhere else. If Terrans are made to pay for moving their static defenses the Zerg should be made to pay as well, but I think both are unnecessary since there are a lot of units that can easily take down bunkers in all races. Blizzard removed "smart-cast" I think ... the ability to use an ability by right-clicking on the picture in your unit selection. Without that repairing is more or less too complicated in the heat of the super fast paced SC2 battles while casting Transfusion is viable (because you use it on big models only anyways and they are easy to target). Since Zerg have their Transfusion and Protoss their increased shiel regeneration rate I dont think auto-repair is unfair. | ||
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GreatestThreat
United States631 Posts
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Ghad
Norway2551 Posts
On August 26 2010 18:50 Rabiator wrote: Full salvage on bunkers is the equivalent to the Spine Crawlers ability to uproot and plant itself somewhere else. If Terrans are made to pay for moving their static defenses the Zerg should be made to pay as well, Except that money gained from salvaging bunkers can be used to build offensive units, and a spine crawler will always be a spine crawler. :p | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On August 26 2010 04:52 Darkn3ss wrote: This solves EVERYTHING! Bold out your text so people will never miss the most important post in the thread!!! I think there should be an option to change color and size of the text too!!! If you think it's REALLY the TRUTH you should type in all caps and underline everything too!!! Awesome post, bro! Can't wait to see more of your genius!!! -.- PS: In case my sarcasm was hard to understand... you'll be better off not doing stuff like that. It's a good idea but it's not the best/most important thing in the thread. On topic: I wish roach speed was hatch tech as well... I mean you can't really kite zealots effectively or even hope to counter-attack until way after lair. Your units are just too slow for too long... =( :p Fair enough but that was just to catch people's eye as I'm pretty sure a lot of people just scroll past people with low post counts anyway. I caught your sarcasm don't worry. ^_^ | ||
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