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On August 15 2010 14:16 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 14:15 Cranberries wrote:
If they were to increase Zealot time they'd need to reduce Stalker build time (possibly Sentry) by 2 or 3 seconds (from 42 > 40 or 38) so that the Marauder/Marine push from Terran isn't so deadly you get owned before you can get out a Zealot and two Stalkers, or two Zealots and a Stalker. barracks build was increased by 5 seconds as well
so you feel that terran is not stronger than zerg even mid - late game?
its only the early game that fucks zerg up? i mean, countless times on the ladder i get early game pushed by marines, and when i fend it off it just becomes and even bigger ball 2 minutes later, but, do you feel as in 30 minutes into a game, if a terran were not to be agressive early game that its balanced? 9 viking range, i dont even know thors ground to air range but i know its insane as shit, and siege tanks
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lol.. just like fisheye had 120 apm in broodwar and raped everyone about the whole time he has played, did this make protoss imbalanced? (not saying balance changes aren't needed, just saying you're taking this way out of proportion with your apm argument)
bringing the drewbie vs idra example is dumb, drewbie is actually pretty fuckin good
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On August 15 2010 15:01 chekthehek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 14:16 IdrA wrote:On August 15 2010 14:15 Cranberries wrote:
If they were to increase Zealot time they'd need to reduce Stalker build time (possibly Sentry) by 2 or 3 seconds (from 42 > 40 or 38) so that the Marauder/Marine push from Terran isn't so deadly you get owned before you can get out a Zealot and two Stalkers, or two Zealots and a Stalker. barracks build was increased by 5 seconds as well so you feel that terran is not stronger than zerg even mid - late game? its only the early game that fucks zerg up? i mean, countless times on the ladder i get early game pushed by marines, and when i fend it off it just becomes and even bigger ball 2 minutes later, but, do you feel as in 30 minutes into a game, if a terran were not to be agressive early game that its balanced? 9 viking range, i dont even know thors ground to air range but i know its insane as shit, and siege tanks
Its the damage in the early game that causes the weakness in the late game. THink about it this way, if the marines didnt attack you wouldnt u have more drones, mayb more minerals possibly another expansion. Terran superior units don't matter when you have the capability of producing more than the terran will be able to. This was why mech was easily stopped back in BW days despite the invincible mech army. It is also why bio play was most popular, since this was the easiest way to deny zerg expansions. Zergs without production = failure, since the units are weak.
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effort involved should not have any effect on balance decisions unless its in regards to "the only way to beat this is literally humanly impossible"
I haven't read the whole thread yet (whew 500 replies is something to burrow through), but I read this and I just wanted to say something that should be obvious to anyone:
You are wrong, because comparing the "efforts involved" is the only way to determine imbalance. In fact, even though there probably is no official Wikipedia-like imbalance definition, it should be something like this:
"A unit, ability, strategy or even race is imbalanced if the opponent facing this unit, ability, strategy or race can not defeat it with the same amount (or a little higher amount) of effort or skill put to use than the player who is utilizing said unit, ability, strategy or race"
Someone with godlike micro could probably put zerglings to insane use, as he constantly pulls out damaged zerglings and thus prolongs the lifetime of them by entire seconds while his perfectly microed hydras in the background completely destroy the terran army, but all of that would not be balanced just because a deity can win the game.
The WC3 comparison:
On August 15 2010 06:15 Entropic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 05:43 MichaelJLowell wrote:On August 15 2010 05:27 Kurr wrote:On August 15 2010 05:21 MichaelJLowell wrote:
I thought this was the forum where people play the hell out of Starcraft and render it a science? Right now, I just see a bunch of people complaining about a matchup where no Zergs play for Contaminate, Nydus Worms, and Burrow in a phase of the game's competitive history where the raw mechanical ability of players is still very weak.
The game is two weeks into its retail phase. It'd be one thing to spent the next year exhausting every strategy and giving up. It's another to dismiss your available options because they "don't appear to work". I completely agree. It's hard to be creative with Zerg but I think players were spoiled with 1 supply roaches 1a2a3a to victory and still have not gotten past that nerf and tried to use different strategies. I love watching Madfrog and TLO (when he plays Zerg) play. Idra makes it work but honestly it's just because he's way better than most of the other players. Yes the matchup favors Terran but trying a strategy that you've lost with over and over again is not going to fix that unless you have better micro and macro than your opponent. Take Warcraft III. Ensnare was considered useless. Nobody used it. What happened? People realized a free-to-use immobilization ability may be a good thing when units are at a premium. The Blademaster was also considered useless. High damage? Who cares? A-click, focus fire him, goodbye. The Blademaster "sucked". Then he got two buffs. One removed the collision size on Wind Walk (so you can't surround invisible Blademasters) and another increased the damage of Wind Walk. These occurred in 2004. Nothing changed. The Blademaster still "sucked". Then people realized: "Hey, an unkillable, fast-moving hero may be great for playing map control!" And with the help of Ensnare, Orcs turned into the dominant Warcraft III race...in 2007. Like everyone else, Humans whined. But guess what? They tried new abilities. The Bloodmage. Also "useless". Banish? Useless. Siphon Mana? Useless. Except...Banish the Blademaster...Siphon Mana the Shadow Hunter...harass with Flamestrike...wow, the Bloodmage is a viable first choice against Orcs! And how does a Bloodmage get into an Orc base without getting gunned down? Exploiting Orc's lack of detection with a spell called Invisibility...another "useless" spell. None of this occurred overnight, and none of it occurred because the Warcraft III community was rewarded with a balance patch for their complaints. Players got better, they exhausted the game's limits, they experimented. And quite frankly, I expect better from a lot of people on this board. It's been two weeks. Experiment, exhaust, get better. And this is not a reflection on my ability as a player. I'm far from the best here. But I don't blame anyone but myself for those losses. Yeah, Dimaga has a financial imperative to get the best results. But he screwed himself over the moment he said "I can't win unless I play race X". To someone like me, that tells me that he has no confidence in his ability to win. That is very difficult baggage to tote at the highest level of play. Great post. That said, I think some (minor) changes need to be implemented. As well as new maps.
yes, except Orcs (with a few exceptions here and there obviously) have pretty much been dominating anything and everything for about 2 or 3 years now, in a scene that is much more developed than it was back in 2004, and only now some Blizzard guy said that a balance patch is going to come soon.
I also don't like people who always say things like "just wait for the next metagame change". There is no metagame to be changed in ZvT, as Z has almost no choices to do anything at all.
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On August 15 2010 15:02 Fayth wrote:
lol.. just like fisheye had 120 apm in broodwar and raped everyone about the whole time he has played, did this make protoss imbalanced? (not saying balance changes aren't needed, just saying you're taking this way out of proportion with your apm argument)
bringing the drewbie vs idra example is dumb, drewbie is actually pretty fuckin good
The nerf will come and when it does, the true face of every Terran player shall be unveiled.
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Dimaga - thanks alot for your honesty..
I bet a lot of zerg players are feeling the same way - and let's hope Blizz does something very soon!
Again, you are awesome for saying the truth.
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I disagree with a lot of people here. You can take siege tanks and thors off the game and zerg will do much better, obviously. That's not the sort of solution Blizzard/High profiles are looking for, they want the tools, not pure numbers (sure, those need to be tweaked sometimes).
This goes for every race, if walls were "shady" like in BW, baneling busts wouldn't be held by stacking buildings, but since you can, you have the tools to stop it.
About the ladder: It's gonna force you towards 50-50, so it places the weaker race better player against the crappy terran (like me), making the high zerg lose a lot of rating and the low T to get catapulted to the top. That's why the very top of the ladder is the best place to look at balance. Overall number of people playing X race only show how much fun it is.
You are more likely to see another spell to the corrupter, some tech requirement removed or whatever the hell they come up with then all terran units get a dmg reduction aura. You will still beat zergs with everything you are currently doing, just not the good ones, they will be able to just outplay you.
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On August 15 2010 15:01 chekthehek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 14:16 IdrA wrote:On August 15 2010 14:15 Cranberries wrote:
If they were to increase Zealot time they'd need to reduce Stalker build time (possibly Sentry) by 2 or 3 seconds (from 42 > 40 or 38) so that the Marauder/Marine push from Terran isn't so deadly you get owned before you can get out a Zealot and two Stalkers, or two Zealots and a Stalker. barracks build was increased by 5 seconds as well so you feel that terran is not stronger than zerg even mid - late game? its only the early game that fucks zerg up? i mean, countless times on the ladder i get early game pushed by marines, and when i fend it off it just becomes and even bigger ball 2 minutes later, but, do you feel as in 30 minutes into a game, if a terran were not to be agressive early game that its balanced? 9 viking range, i dont even know thors ground to air range but i know its insane as shit, and siege tanks
mech is overpowered mid/late game but thats not an argument worth having right now because theres no terran players skilled enough to make the imbalance apparent at top levels, so any claims will just get shot down. it'll come up a few months down the road.
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On August 15 2010 14:07 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 13:56 IdrA wrote:On August 15 2010 13:30 kajeus wrote:On August 15 2010 13:10 IdrA wrote:On August 15 2010 12:55 kajeus wrote:On August 15 2010 12:49 IdrA wrote:On August 15 2010 12:47 kajeus wrote:On August 15 2010 11:09 IdrA wrote:On August 15 2010 10:58 Tanatos wrote:Zerg is fine race if you are korean  korean zergs are barely any more represented in the highest ranks than foreigners, half the time the top 10 is 7 terrans 2 protosses and whichever 1 of 5 zergs happened to hit a win streak recently. By the way, this isn't actually true. Zerg is proportionally quite overrepresented in the Korean top 100 (e.g.). They are 29% of the top 100 but only 21.65% of diamond league. Now, I'm NOT saying everything is fine, because the evidence that something is very wrong is building and building. However, it's simply incorrect to say that the zergs are underrepresented at the top in Korea, even now. i said top 10 and you really need to stop posting, statistics are irrelevant because when we talk about balance we mean the very best. not the top 50, top 100, top whatever. the people who are relevant in tournaments. Ohh, top 100 of 68 472 players isn't the very best. I see. Ladder is what it is. Top 10 of ladder has been wildly zerg dominated for a long time in Korea. It isn't now. Maybe things have finally gone over the edge. For the record, I think zerg is underpowered. (EDIT: By the way, zerg is 30% of the top 10 and 40% of the top 20 in Korea...) every single post you make is about statistics, and ladder stats dont mean jack shit when we're talking about balance. lots of good players offrace or experiment or just dont play much on ladder. tournament results and gameplay are what matters. all but like 3 tournaments have been won by terran since the start of phase 2. every single top zerg and a good number of terrans will tell you the matchup is fundamentally terran favored. not because terran wins 76.2% of the time, but because terran has distinct advantages in a lot of important areas and zerg has no real answer to them. if statistics get you hard make one of those ladder analysis pages or something, but stop interfering with balance discussions. Nice reply? I'm not interfering with your crusade, dumbass. I'm keeping you honest. Don't lie and you're set. you're an imbecile. i just explained why the stats you keep quoting are irrelevant. when you bring them up in these discussions and then you and other people use them to try to claim that imbalance is unproven you fuck up the discussion. Just to further Idra's point.. Tester pretty much outlined why Terran was imba months ago, and why that imbalance wasn't appearing in ladder play just yet (the players playing Terran on the whole are a lot worse in terms of skill than those playing Zerg/Protoss). And now we're here in retail and Terran is raping face everywhere? Ladder statistics are no where near as important as results in tournaments - especially from an AMM ladder.
Hi, I have agreed in every post in this thread that zerg is underpowered.
IdrA lying about ladder statistics doesn't help anything.
Thanks,
Kajeus
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crap like this will only spawn thousands of zergs with their sad qq'ing, maybe at the pro level it is very difficult to achieve consistent results... but atm every zerg i ever play on ladder makes it seem like its impossible to win, just covering up the fact that they are actually terrible..
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actually i see most of the top players are protoss, and P is favored over T. T is very underpowered @ the moment, and these guys are mostly just whiners. if they want to use the best race, why dont they choose toss?
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On August 15 2010 15:22 Nightbiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 15:02 Fayth wrote:
lol.. just like fisheye had 120 apm in broodwar and raped everyone about the whole time he has played, did this make protoss imbalanced? (not saying balance changes aren't needed, just saying you're taking this way out of proportion with your apm argument)
bringing the drewbie vs idra example is dumb, drewbie is actually pretty fuckin good The nerf will come and when it does, the true face of every Terran player shall be unveiled.
get ready to be disappointed
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On August 15 2010 15:44 911insidejob wrote:
actually i see most of the top players are protoss, and P is favored over T. T is very underpowered @ the moment, and these guys are mostly just whiners. if they want to use the best race, why dont they choose toss?
Obvious bias is obvious. Why don't you go back to Jew bashing on Iccup?
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oh yes the fucking lol argument that EVERY SINGLE TOP TERRAN PLAYER IS WORSE THAN EVERY SINGLE TOP ZERG PLAYER. Just because talentless macro bot idra plays zerg, i bet if he played terran there wouldn't be nearly as much whine
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Hopefully blizzard will fix the game up. Sooner better than later hopefully as the more time they waste the worse it is for SC 2's future as an e-sports
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By the way, can somebody point us all to quotes from top Korean zergs saying either that zerg is underpowered or TvZ is imbalanced?
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see korean zergs combat terran with skill, the rest of the zergs...combat terran with qq'ing and whining
User was warned for this post
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Can we stop it with the "but the Koreans" rhetoric? Koreans are just as capable of "QQ'ing" as everyone else. If an imbalance exists, argue it logically like in the thread opened by MasterAsia, and not by what you see on polls in the US, EU, or Korea.
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Cool plays random now and not zerg. I wonder why?
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sighh i play terran ( about 500 plat)
i do feel there is and imbalance with T atm, but what will blizzard do about it. i mean they dont wana break terran but at the same time they shud hurry cuz SC2 as an esport is growing thinn
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EPT
