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On August 15 2010 18:11 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +He doesn't want to switch because Terran are stronger at the moment. He wants to draw Blizzard's attention to the fact that on the pro level it is next to impossible to achieve consistently good results with Zerg. Well if that was truly the case then he'd play protoss to eliminate the bias from TvZ matchups which he obviously suffers from. It's cool if he wants to play FOTM and play to win. I understand. If this cry works out for him then he can go back to playing zerg with buffs.
Why do you disparage people who use the most effective race? If you job as a progamer is to win games, why not use the best tool for the job?
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On August 15 2010 18:12 EvaristeGalois wrote:
Why do you disparage people who use the most effective race? If you job as a progamer is to win games, why not use the best tool for the job?
I'm a firefighter, but instead of using hose pipes in order to put out fires I use a watering can because I like doing things the hard way.
Dimaga's argument to switch races is perfectly fine: he has a job that is to win, if he doesn't win, he's in trouble.
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On August 15 2010 18:12 EvaristeGalois wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 18:11 Baarn wrote:He doesn't want to switch because Terran are stronger at the moment. He wants to draw Blizzard's attention to the fact that on the pro level it is next to impossible to achieve consistently good results with Zerg. Well if that was truly the case then he'd play protoss to eliminate the bias from TvZ matchups which he obviously suffers from. It's cool if he wants to play FOTM and play to win. I understand. If this cry works out for him then he can go back to playing zerg with buffs. Why do you disparage people who use the most effective race? If you job as a progamer is to win games, why not use the best tool for the job?
It's nothing personal. It's his pro gaming career. Doesn't affect me one little bit. This is his problem. It's just the current state of discussions here are how unfair it is for zerg QQ threads so the timing of his announcement to race change comes at no surprise but you're gonna have to expect to take some shit for it. Idra jokes about switching to terran for some time now but I don't think he's gonna seriously race change to terran for some advantages. Plus I disagree with the OP's two sentences which I think is complete bullshit.
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I hope Blizzard will patch the game really soon. Zerg issues from the beta are still not fixed, it's even worse in some situations. Dimaga's reaction is understandable. He'll need a few ajustements to switch over Terran, then he won't lose because of an unfinished race.
At the moment, the skill required to play Zerg successfully is a lof higher than Protoss and Terran. He will perform better as Terran.
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On August 15 2010 14:10 IdrA wrote:2 gate, any kind of zealot pressure, is still very strong
2 robo collosus still works just fine if they dont go muta
I know it's maybe just a newbish guess, but I think blizzard is currently waiting to see how the ZvP develops before they introduce changes to T (and overall)
I'm pretty sure they've realized by now that terrans are a bit (!) too strong on pro-level, especially vs Z; nevertheless the basic question remains: should this result in a general nerf of T while leaving Z alone, a general buff of Z while leaving T alone or (most likely) a little bit of both;
just buffing Z "could" result in ZvP being in favor of Z since I'd consider ZvP being fine in mid/lategame; also the PvT matchup will remain in favor of T, although it's not as bad as ZvT right now;
just nerfing T won't fix ZvP with P being able to pressure very early with two gate (most common build I see right now is 12 gate, 14 gate; play it myself) leaving the Z no window for catching up economically;
so obviously there has to be a patch that fixes "everything" which is clearly more challenging; if ZvP was absolutely 100% fine, then it would be much easier since blizz only had to adjust T
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Can we just lose Thor air splash damage??? How much freaking splash does one race need?
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im suprised this is all the people that joined into yell imba so that they can tell themselves. I LOST BECUZ OF IMBA, BUT I AM BETTER THAN HIM !!!!
Because as you know on the internet. thats all there really is... clouded by language.
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On August 15 2010 18:34 SeaSmoke wrote:
Can we just lose Thor air splash damage??? How much freaking splash does one race need?
well you got the tanks splashing and destroying any unit on the ground.....the hellions mopping up any excess lings and the thors blasting anything in the air from across the map i think they got the splash damage covered....perhaps vikings range make it so they dont need air nukes vs armored  or maybe they are saving it for an expansion LOL
woot terrancraft FTW.....sucks im not really a fan of TvT tho  i like my zerg games.
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On August 15 2010 12:49 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 12:47 kajeus wrote:On August 15 2010 11:09 IdrA wrote:On August 15 2010 10:58 Tanatos wrote:Zerg is fine race if you are korean  korean zergs are barely any more represented in the highest ranks than foreigners, half the time the top 10 is 7 terrans 2 protosses and whichever 1 of 5 zergs happened to hit a win streak recently. By the way, this isn't actually true. Zerg is proportionally quite overrepresented in the Korean top 100 (e.g.). They are 29% of the top 100 but only 21.65% of diamond league. Now, I'm NOT saying everything is fine, because the evidence that something is very wrong is building and building. However, it's simply incorrect to say that the zergs are underrepresented at the top in Korea, even now. i said top 10 and you really need to stop posting, statistics are irrelevant because when we talk about balance we mean the very best. not the top 50, top 100, top whatever. the people who are relevant in tournaments.
why do you disregard top100?
there are tons of players in top100 that can very well defeat you.
We saw masq beat you. Silver destroy you. Although silver is top10 he doens't play in tournaments. your generalization that no tourney = no skill is ridiculous
Yes I know they are terran but thats not the point, the point is they can beat you just as well as any top10 terrans can.
( not trolling just stating the facts that there are these possibilities and we have seen them, I do accept the fact that you are if not the best, at least top 5 sc2 players in the world at the moment which is out of discussion but I thought i'd say that otherwise i'd get mega bashed )
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That would be super sad if he really switches, his zerg play is so different but so strong. A patch is needed and almost everybody knows this. Let´s see how long it takes.
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On August 15 2010 14:10 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 14:05 Cranberries wrote:
IdrA, may I ask why PvZ is in any way imbalanced? 2 gate into 2 robo colossi no longer works, and Muta harass absolutely rapes Protoss unless they're producing Pheonix off of 2 or 3 Stargates: and who goes Stargates against an opponent who could transition to Hydralisks and annihialate your air army? Perhaps Carriers are a good transition from Pheonix, but I doubt it. muta is only viable vs warpgate->expand, it cant hold allins and if they went fast expand theres a timing where they can kill you with stalker/sentry if they did expand at that one timing they should scout with a hallucinate, which you can do in time to go 2 star phoenix, which completely shuts down muta. theres no problem transitioning phoenix->ground army. just cut phoenix production as soon as they go hydra and run around killing ovies while you get collosus+units. the mutas set zerg back more than the phoenixs set you back and you force hydras, which are worthless vs collosus. 2 gate, any kind of zealot pressure, is still very strong 2 robo collosus still works just fine if they dont go muta
wow thats actually very logicial... hm.. Im actually going to start goign stargate on ladder more often.
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On August 15 2010 18:43 virgozero wrote:
Yes I know they are terran but thats not the point, the point is they can beat you just as well as any top10 terrans can.
You're making idra's points for him.
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On August 15 2010 18:46 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 18:43 virgozero wrote:
Yes I know they are terran but thats not the point, the point is they can beat you just as well as any top10 terrans can.
You're making idra's points for him.
yeah and my point is that top100 terrans are just as good as top10 terrans and the difference is relatively small. Often the top10 terrans are just top100 terrans with more games massed. You do realize the more games you play the more points you loose unless your utterfail. You gain more points from wining than you loose from loosing.
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hey guys remember that game that was played pre -roach/broodlord nerf where Dimaga kept thowing 200s of fully upgraded units at Hasuobse's 2-1 upgraded army and couldnt finish it until he wasted like 700 worth of limit?
Yea good times.
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On August 15 2010 17:11 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +I played a very good zerg player last night that completely rolled me (I am 800 diamond, he is higher I believe) and he really seemed to have the matchup figured out. We talked and he explained that most korean terran pros are now okay with the ZvT matchup and are having tons of problems with the ZvP matchup which many consider imbalanced.
I don't know, just another perspective. However, Dimaga is being pathetic for complaining that there are no changes so shortly after the game's release. You can't just force in the stupid kind of changes we see on the boards all the time. Zerg lategame is VERY imbalanced against Terran. Ultras have literally no counter short of battlecruisers which are just stupid to build against any Z who is smart enough to make corrupters. If the early-midgame ceases to favor Terran, I don't see how the matchup won't be completely broken. i really doubt your 800+ diamond judging from that sentence in bold. that are you are just biased as shit and blatantly ignore what the terran arsenal has. you are saying the only way to counter ultras is to build battlecruisers? you must have forggotten that marauders and thors 350MM cannons rip a new hole in ultras. not to mention unsieged tanks doing the major dps against the ultras. if properly microed the ultras wont even touch the thors because of 350MM cannons. and scvs will be right behind the thors for repair. also dimaga probably did the right thing by switching since he plays this game as a job and need to make money. hopefully this will show how that zergs need something done. probably need to be revamped all together. he is right to say that zerg pretty much relies on the mistakes of there opponents to win them games because thats exactly how it feels. zerg is also almost ALWAYS on the defensive if there toss or terran player is at the top of there game. the only match up zerg is actually allowed to be agressive is ZvZ... which is redundant. honestly you ppl should realize by now something is wrong with the match ups when zerg pretty much HAVE to rush to tier 2.5 units. and even whey they do get there they still pretty much loose to tier 1 units. in which case they need to rush to tier 3 units in order to actully win. and by this time tier 2 units still beat zergs tier 3 units. so the match up for bot zvt and zvp is zerg trying to rush to ultras or broodlords. and if there opponent slips up and makes a mistake then MAYBE they can win with hydras alone and take a early win. but very very rarely do u see a zerg winning early game unless there opponent tries to fast expand. and you people really think nothing is wrong with that? yet terrans can marine/marauder rush ur hatch or zealots can 2 gate rush u and win almost 50% of the time? honestly its bs.
No he is correct. The problem with TvZ is that Terran has a huge timing window at midgame in which they rape zerg, but lategame Z > Terran, because Ultras rape all terran units. Sure you can try and counter with thors. And if you have 1 thor vs 1 ultra you may do well. But because of the critical mass problem, and the fact that the zerg can get more ultras than the terran can get thors, the terran thors will lose to the ultras. There is really nothing the terran can do vs ultras. Mauraders wont work, becuase of fungeral growth.
IMO the best solution might be to change the gas cost of the ultra, while nerfing its dmg vs armored, so that it is now easier to get ultras on 2 base, while not as strong late game vs terran.
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There's only one protoss and 5 terrans top 10 in broodwar atm, protoss need buff and terr nerf there?
And like someone said before i think diamaga should change since all i've basicly seen from him is 1base baneling play and 1base works better with terr/toss imo.
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plz do not compare bw with sc2. please dont
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i dont think anyone will argue that Terrans are the strongest race in SCBW.
Just the margins are minuscule.
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On August 15 2010 19:21 pewzzri wrote:
There's only one protoss and 5 terrans top 10 in broodwar atm, protoss need buff and terr nerf there?
And like someone said before i think diamaga should change since all i've basicly seen from him is 1base baneling play and 1base works better with terr/toss imo.
"I've watched less than 10 dimaga games and make silly assumptions about his play from them."
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On August 15 2010 19:19 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 17:11 Ballistixz wrote:I played a very good zerg player last night that completely rolled me (I am 800 diamond, he is higher I believe) and he really seemed to have the matchup figured out. We talked and he explained that most korean terran pros are now okay with the ZvT matchup and are having tons of problems with the ZvP matchup which many consider imbalanced.
I don't know, just another perspective. However, Dimaga is being pathetic for complaining that there are no changes so shortly after the game's release. You can't just force in the stupid kind of changes we see on the boards all the time. Zerg lategame is VERY imbalanced against Terran. Ultras have literally no counter short of battlecruisers which are just stupid to build against any Z who is smart enough to make corrupters. If the early-midgame ceases to favor Terran, I don't see how the matchup won't be completely broken. i really doubt your 800+ diamond judging from that sentence in bold. that are you are just biased as shit and blatantly ignore what the terran arsenal has. you are saying the only way to counter ultras is to build battlecruisers? you must have forggotten that marauders and thors 350MM cannons rip a new hole in ultras. not to mention unsieged tanks doing the major dps against the ultras. if properly microed the ultras wont even touch the thors because of 350MM cannons. and scvs will be right behind the thors for repair. also dimaga probably did the right thing by switching since he plays this game as a job and need to make money. hopefully this will show how that zergs need something done. probably need to be revamped all together. he is right to say that zerg pretty much relies on the mistakes of there opponents to win them games because thats exactly how it feels. zerg is also almost ALWAYS on the defensive if there toss or terran player is at the top of there game. the only match up zerg is actually allowed to be agressive is ZvZ... which is redundant. honestly you ppl should realize by now something is wrong with the match ups when zerg pretty much HAVE to rush to tier 2.5 units. and even whey they do get there they still pretty much loose to tier 1 units. in which case they need to rush to tier 3 units in order to actully win. and by this time tier 2 units still beat zergs tier 3 units. so the match up for bot zvt and zvp is zerg trying to rush to ultras or broodlords. and if there opponent slips up and makes a mistake then MAYBE they can win with hydras alone and take a early win. but very very rarely do u see a zerg winning early game unless there opponent tries to fast expand. and you people really think nothing is wrong with that? yet terrans can marine/marauder rush ur hatch or zealots can 2 gate rush u and win almost 50% of the time? honestly its bs. No he is correct. The problem with TvZ is that Terran has a huge timing window at midgame in which they rape zerg, but lategame Z > Terran, because Ultras rape all terran units. Sure you can try and counter with thors. And if you have 1 thor vs 1 ultra you may do well. But because of the critical mass problem, and the fact that the zerg can get more ultras than the terran can get thors, the terran thors will lose to the ultras. There is really nothing the terran can do vs ultras. Mauraders wont work, becuase of fungeral growth. IMO the best solution might be to change the gas cost of the ultra, while nerfing its dmg vs armored, so that it is now easier to get ultras on 2 base, while not as strong late game vs terran.
Late game, ultras die to siege.Very fast. Saw a game where the guy had 9 ultras +lings and roaches and rushed in and caught a 12-13 unsieged tanks+marauders out in the open. The terran just seiged up and raped the zerg army. Lol.
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