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On August 15 2010 13:11 Macavity wrote:I played Zerg in beta and switched to Terran in retail. Dimaga will be smart if he switches to Terran. Ditto for Idra. The issue isn't that Terran is overpowered. The issue is that Zerg is a poorly designed race. What forced me to switch was when I realized that all my wins with Zerg ended up being long games like 30 min. But ALL my losses with Zerg would be like 10 min or so. Playing Zerg became so frustrating since Zerg is not in any position to be too aggressive at the beginning. People say, "You must macro!" OK, I have five bases with 100 drones. Because Zerg needs more bases, he needs more drones, which means he has less of a food count to make fun usual units. And this is just 'one' of the frustrations of playing Zerg. I find Terran to be the most 'complete' of the races. I have many options and playstyles available. Protoss I find to be less developed than Terran, but still OK. Zerg is just a complete mess. Zerg has some good core units like zerglings, mutalisks, hydralisks, but that is all. These units are also very two dimensional. All the Zerg can do is just make a ton of those two dimensional units. Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 04:16 Puosu wrote:
Blizzard is taking their time for a reason, they're looking for the best possible changes they can make and not hasty ones like they had in the beta where they could afford to make mistakes. No, the problem with the Zerg race cannot be fixed with a simple 'balance' patch. The problem of the Zerg stems from Blizzard pinning the design philosophy on an incorrect definition, i.e. "swarmy". The "swarmy" definition is the cause of why Zerg units are all two dimensional. The 'swarmy' definition is why Zerg is meant to just make tons of the same units and 'attack move' somewhere. 'Swarmy' is why Zerg has problems with Terran mech because Zerg units are so weak in comparison because they were designed to be made in mass numbers. The biggest issue is that Blizzard's "Zerg swarmy" philosophy is not fun to play. I do not enjoy making tons of drones, defending against constant harassment, so I can make fifty hydralisks/roaches/mutalisks and attack move to victory. Of course, I am simplifying the matter, but not really. Blizzard was so relentless in their 'differentiation of races' that they made the Zerg into something they were not. In Brood War, Zerg were aggressive and to be feared. In Starcraft 2, Zerg are docile and considered weak. To "Zerg" became a definition in itself. Today, to "Zerg" will alter the definition into an opposite way (in the future, RTS gamers will talk about 'zerging' a race as to mean they neutered it). There is enough of an essential skeleton of the Zerg so they can win games. But it is the player who wins games, not the race. Zerg players tend to be cranky in general because the race is not fun to play (despite the cool biological aesthetic). My suggestion to Blizzard is to scale back the 'philosophy' of 'swarmy' and make Zerg more like Brood War Zerg. This will require some major changes however than a simple 'balance' tweak.
absolutely. when i saw that i have to beat philibird and stalife in semis and finals of the jedi tourney i have pretty much given up because of how impossible it is to maintain that kind of concentration for hours. Lo and behold- first game vs phili was 40 minutes long.
And it's not only long it's also much more taxing then on the terran player. Always was this way even when zergs were overpowered. I always was of the school of thought that if you want to be on top you gotta play error-less, but then a few days back i heard Bratok talk about tvt on his stream and how he prefers to go bioball because there is more room for error, while in viking vs viking you lose 1 viking and it's light out. Well ZvT has always been like that. You are at a wrong place at the wrong time and all your mutas blow up to thor. The banelings blow up in tank splash. The hydra blows up in HSM.
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Goodnight sweet prince. : (
I'll keep the light on for Zerg down here in silver league where it's not so bad-- for whatever it's worth, but it's sad to see one of the greats higher up feel the need to switch races.
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On August 15 2010 13:30 kajeus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 13:10 IdrA wrote:On August 15 2010 12:55 kajeus wrote:On August 15 2010 12:49 IdrA wrote:On August 15 2010 12:47 kajeus wrote:On August 15 2010 11:09 IdrA wrote:On August 15 2010 10:58 Tanatos wrote:Zerg is fine race if you are korean  korean zergs are barely any more represented in the highest ranks than foreigners, half the time the top 10 is 7 terrans 2 protosses and whichever 1 of 5 zergs happened to hit a win streak recently. By the way, this isn't actually true. Zerg is proportionally quite overrepresented in the Korean top 100 (e.g.). They are 29% of the top 100 but only 21.65% of diamond league. Now, I'm NOT saying everything is fine, because the evidence that something is very wrong is building and building. However, it's simply incorrect to say that the zergs are underrepresented at the top in Korea, even now. i said top 10 and you really need to stop posting, statistics are irrelevant because when we talk about balance we mean the very best. not the top 50, top 100, top whatever. the people who are relevant in tournaments. Ohh, top 100 of 68 472 players isn't the very best. I see. Ladder is what it is. Top 10 of ladder has been wildly zerg dominated for a long time in Korea. It isn't now. Maybe things have finally gone over the edge. For the record, I think zerg is underpowered. (EDIT: By the way, zerg is 30% of the top 10 and 40% of the top 20 in Korea...) every single post you make is about statistics, and ladder stats dont mean jack shit when we're talking about balance. lots of good players offrace or experiment or just dont play much on ladder. tournament results and gameplay are what matters. all but like 3 tournaments have been won by terran since the start of phase 2. every single top zerg and a good number of terrans will tell you the matchup is fundamentally terran favored. not because terran wins 76.2% of the time, but because terran has distinct advantages in a lot of important areas and zerg has no real answer to them. if statistics get you hard make one of those ladder analysis pages or something, but stop interfering with balance discussions. Nice reply? I'm not interfering with your crusade, dumbass. I'm keeping you honest. Don't lie and you're set.
you're an imbecile. i just explained why the stats you keep quoting are irrelevant. when you bring them up in these discussions and then you and other people use them to try to claim that imbalance is unproven you fuck up the discussion.
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IdrA, may I ask why PvZ is in any way imbalanced? 2 gate into 2 robo colossi no longer works, and Muta harass absolutely rapes Protoss unless they're producing Pheonix off of 2 or 3 Stargates: and who goes Stargates against an opponent who could transition to Hydralisks and annihialate your air army? Perhaps Carriers are a good transition from Pheonix, but I doubt it.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 15 2010 13:56 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 13:30 kajeus wrote:On August 15 2010 13:10 IdrA wrote:On August 15 2010 12:55 kajeus wrote:On August 15 2010 12:49 IdrA wrote:On August 15 2010 12:47 kajeus wrote:On August 15 2010 11:09 IdrA wrote:On August 15 2010 10:58 Tanatos wrote:Zerg is fine race if you are korean korean zergs are barely any more represented in the highest ranks than foreigners, half the time the top 10 is 7 terrans 2 protosses and whichever 1 of 5 zergs happened to hit a win streak recently. By the way, this isn't actually true. Zerg is proportionally quite overrepresented in the Korean top 100 (e.g.). They are 29% of the top 100 but only 21.65% of diamond league. Now, I'm NOT saying everything is fine, because the evidence that something is very wrong is building and building. However, it's simply incorrect to say that the zergs are underrepresented at the top in Korea, even now. i said top 10 and you really need to stop posting, statistics are irrelevant because when we talk about balance we mean the very best. not the top 50, top 100, top whatever. the people who are relevant in tournaments. Ohh, top 100 of 68 472 players isn't the very best. I see. Ladder is what it is. Top 10 of ladder has been wildly zerg dominated for a long time in Korea. It isn't now. Maybe things have finally gone over the edge. For the record, I think zerg is underpowered. (EDIT: By the way, zerg is 30% of the top 10 and 40% of the top 20 in Korea...) every single post you make is about statistics, and ladder stats dont mean jack shit when we're talking about balance. lots of good players offrace or experiment or just dont play much on ladder. tournament results and gameplay are what matters. all but like 3 tournaments have been won by terran since the start of phase 2. every single top zerg and a good number of terrans will tell you the matchup is fundamentally terran favored. not because terran wins 76.2% of the time, but because terran has distinct advantages in a lot of important areas and zerg has no real answer to them. if statistics get you hard make one of those ladder analysis pages or something, but stop interfering with balance discussions. Nice reply? I'm not interfering with your crusade, dumbass. I'm keeping you honest. Don't lie and you're set. you're an imbecile. i just explained why the stats you keep quoting are irrelevant. when you bring them up in these discussions and then you and other people use them to try to claim that imbalance is unproven you fuck up the discussion.
Just to further Idra's point.. Tester pretty much outlined why Terran was imba months ago, and why that imbalance wasn't appearing in ladder play just yet (the players playing Terran on the whole are a lot worse in terms of skill than those playing Zerg/Protoss). And now we're here in retail and Terran is raping face everywhere? Ladder statistics are no where near as important as results in tournaments - especially from an AMM ladder.
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On August 15 2010 14:05 Cranberries wrote:
IdrA, may I ask why PvZ is in any way imbalanced? 2 gate into 2 robo colossi no longer works, and Muta harass absolutely rapes Protoss unless they're producing Pheonix off of 2 or 3 Stargates: and who goes Stargates against an opponent who could transition to Hydralisks and annihialate your air army? Perhaps Carriers are a good transition from Pheonix, but I doubt it.
i think he said earlier that trying to defend against 2gate gives you a crappy midgame economically.
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IdrA, I hate balance suggestions, but your opinion on it is about the only one in the world that I'd be interested in hearing.
So...what would be your balance changes in ZvT? Would they be drastic? Or relatively subtle?
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On August 15 2010 14:05 Cranberries wrote:
IdrA, may I ask why PvZ is in any way imbalanced? 2 gate into 2 robo colossi no longer works, and Muta harass absolutely rapes Protoss unless they're producing Pheonix off of 2 or 3 Stargates: and who goes Stargates against an opponent who could transition to Hydralisks and annihialate your air army? Perhaps Carriers are a good transition from Pheonix, but I doubt it.
muta is only viable vs warpgate->expand, it cant hold allins and if they went fast expand theres a timing where they can kill you with stalker/sentry
if they did expand at that one timing they should scout with a hallucinate, which you can do in time to go 2 star phoenix, which completely shuts down muta. theres no problem transitioning phoenix->ground army. just cut phoenix production as soon as they go hydra and run around killing ovies while you get collosus+units. the mutas set zerg back more than the phoenixs set you back and you force hydras, which are worthless vs collosus.
2 gate, any kind of zealot pressure, is still very strong
2 robo collosus still works just fine if they dont go muta
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Edit: Never mind, he posted right above me
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On August 15 2010 14:09 SeaSmoke wrote:
IdrA, I hate balance suggestions, but your opinion on it is about the only one in the world that I'd be interested in hearing.
So...what would be your balance changes in ZvT? Would they be drastic? Or relatively subtle?
they need to start by bringing back the phase 2 build time changes, reaper barracks zealot +5 seconds and the bunker back to 40 or w/e it was. those should have pretty significant effects so while other stuff may be needed we have to see what happens when that is changed first, because zergs early game 100% needs help.
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If they were to increase Zealot time they'd need to reduce Stalker build time (possibly Sentry) by 2 or 3 seconds (from 42 > 40 or 38) so that the Marauder/Marine push from Terran isn't so deadly you get owned before you can get out a Zealot and two Stalkers, or two Zealots and a Stalker.
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On August 15 2010 14:15 Cranberries wrote:
If they were to increase Zealot time they'd need to reduce Stalker build time (possibly Sentry) by 2 or 3 seconds (from 42 > 40 or 38) so that the Marauder/Marine push from Terran isn't so deadly you get owned before you can get out a Zealot and two Stalkers, or two Zealots and a Stalker.
barracks build was increased by 5 seconds as well
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I agree with Lalush, it's not just TvZ that's the problem, PvZ problems exist too. 2 gating especially on maps like Steppes of War or other maps with relatively short rush distances are such a incredible pain to deal with, mainly due to chronoboost. I've yet found a good way to deal with 2 gaters, since Zealots demolish Zerglings especially if the P play bothers to micro. Usually, the only thing I can do, is to go for a earlier pool and hope I catch his first zealot off guard, and then try to buy enough time so I can reap the benefits of Larva inject, sadly it often has come too late. The other thing that I've experimented with is just going straight for Roaches after my initial lings.
Roaches deflect the early Zealots quite well, the problem here is that if the Protoss went for cybercore instead of expansion, he will have Stalkers soon that demolish your Roaches. And since you probably won't have an expansion up with creep before the attack with 4 or so stalkers and left over zealots that the protoss ran away with once he saw your Roaches, the fight will end up quite negatively for you. All while hes happily pumping probes. Or, he just expands with the help of a forge and pulls out ahead anyways. -____-
That early in the game you can't make that many roaches due to lack of money and gas. But if you devote all your resources to it you can squuze enough to defend, but even if the P went cybercore, he can just expand if he sees it too hard to attack, and use his stalkers to keep your slow roaches contained. In otherwords, the P pulls out ahead again.
Just my observations.
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Ah, okay- but if Barracks build time is increased by 5 seconds, what advantage does that give early game Zerg? As far as I know, 5 seconds isn't going to help when the maps are just as horrible as they have been.
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minor changes are needed, the imbalance is not huge... they can't make huge changes and switch the imbalance the other way around lol
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i just played a game on lt where i got mass meched and all he did was turtle + mech harass untill i couldn't do anything anymore.
i'm so mad right now and it's fucking stupid as shit, i don't know how idra manages to stay with zerg. that man has balls of fucking steel because this game is really stupid atm
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Early game Zerg suffers from not being able to manage economy and prepare for opening XYZ by Terran and opening ABC from Protoss: if they choose the wrong opening, albeit the Protoss opening is scoutable, they lose and if they choose the right opening and defend they're considerably behind for midgame play.
All I can think of, that causes this problem, is the inability to scout a Terran where 1 or 2 Marines kill an Overlord relatively fast (likewise a Stalker kills an Overlord fast too). But also the map pool incredibly favouring a certain race due to short distances, narrow chokes, abusable cliffs as well as other quite damaging effects. If the map pools were 50% larger, as in assume that the distances from west > east on LT/Meta was 50% longer, I'd think Zerg would be in a situation that's a lot better than they are currently. I'm by no means as good, or claim to be good, at playing Zerg, but I think one of the more 'subtle' problems are the maps, and the ability to Terran/Protoss to abuse these maps to hurt Zerg a lot more than they can hurt Terran/Protoss, respectively.
A good example (I play Protoss) is the 4 gate "all in": you can deny scouting with 2 Zealots, from Zerglings, and a Stalker, from Overlords and hide a Pylon literally anywhere near the Zerg. The moment WP finishes and you have 4 Gates, unless they've assumed something is up and gone absolutely overboard on defense (3+ Spinecrawlers and 15+ Zerglings) there's really no counter. As IdrA said, in small numbers Zealot massacre Zerglings.
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i'm definitely not pro (mid to high plat and tbh i'm not sure how i got there), but for what it's worth i always feel like it's up to me as zerg to raise the bar and make something happen - otherwise the standard repertoire of P and especially T builds will just overrun me. i've gotten pretty good at predicting what's going to happen blindly because i've been abused so much, but you really shouldn't have to be psychic to play well. i just feel like there's no standard, safe routine and i have to be paranoid as hell to stand a chance.
i'm not gonna switch cos unlike the pros my career isn't riding on my win-rate, but it does get frustrating sometimes.
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On August 15 2010 11:03 HowardRoark wrote:
Right now I am teaching my gf to 4gate or void ray rush zergs at diamond league, and so far, she have made it EVERY time with an avarage apm of 15. This. This. This. Blizzard, act now before its too damn late
Yep. And props for Ayn Rand reference in your name.
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having played broodwar since 2000 in a couple well known korean clans as a foreigner and now only playing sc2 at a 500-600 diamond level as zerg i can say there are many fundamental problems with the zerg vs terran matchup (the big zvp problem is previously mentioned 2 gate opening). most of these have been addressed very well by MasterAsia in another thread too.
i know apm doesnt mean a lot but when i am an easy breezy 170apm zerg losing to 50apm terrans to marauder ball timing pushes or 1-1-1 pushes that take 0 damage from spine crawlers it is very shady. terrans require no general mechanics to survive, just watch trump play (sorry, but it is true). terrans in broodwar were known for their high potency when played by high apm players at a good level and very challenging vs zerg when played by low apm players for the most part. right now terrans of 80-90 apm can beat the best of the best zergs handily which is probably what frustrates a player like Idra so much. No matter how solid his mechanics, he simply cannot win in many situations. I especially saw this in his match vs Drewbie, even though Idra could have switched to broodlords much earlier it is still sad that a player like drewbie can give idra that much trouble with his very generic and defensive play style. zerg has NO WAY to break down terran defenses like they could with defilers in broodwar. also, the slow off creep bullshit needs to end, it is absolutely absurd. those stimmed marauders and their concussive shells can chase down anything and everything.
Also, many players say zerg players need more creativity. This problem here is that zerg does not have many units that allow for creativity. Trust me, I've been around since that first replay where IntotheRain mind controlled an opponents overlord while being contained by lurkers and having no OBS, I saw the game of broodwar evolve before my very eyes as I grew up with it. Zerg players need to be given more options for GAME CHANGING creativity, not just tossing down some infested terrans in a tank line and lose 2-3 tanks at most (in broodwar i remember the first time people saw probe drops on tanks and them blowing up and every went ape shit insane at how creative it was). that would have been VERY creative if the tanks werent smart firing which is completely OP. the problem is zerg isn't allowed to be creative by the restrictions placed on the race. it requires more apm than terran and protoss for less build orders, unit options and general creative in build order experimentation.
of course, i agree with other posters that said the zerg should be aggro early game and not docile like they are now. in short, i think terran is a huge joke right now because any players that are very capable mechanically can handily destroy almost any zerg that comes in their path.
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EPT
