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DreXxiN
United States494 Posts
I always thought e-sports as a spectacle sport is what kept me watching. Nope. "Hey guys lets all be TvT and kill the e-sport, so we don't even have the job instead!" Or the other possibility, Terran gets a nerf...perhaps too big. "Well fuck now I'm underpracticed with my old race, that was smart!" Sigh... Oh well... IDRA FIGHTING! | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On August 15 2010 05:19 NonFactor wrote: So on in otherwords, I usually win by starving the T or P. But if they happen to win a battle, they will roll up my natural, set up camp and destroy my units that spawn from larvas before they can regroup. For the swarm!... This pretty much describes most of my games as well. Sometimes I'll get in a good position where I can use nydus worms or drops to exploit their positioning (be it being able to hit one base while they're gathered around another or while they move out). The problem I have with this play is simply that now that people know good timings they can force zerg to make units that can't do anything offensively. You threaten 2 gate so I make 12 lings, but then you keep back with your lots. Great, they're just gonna sit there taking control of areas you don't want to try and exert control over. Meanwhile I'm out 6 drones and have a very delayed expansion. Not that it's imbalanced top end (though apparently it is), but just that the Zerg has to time and skimp on everything perfectly which can be difficult to do and causes a lot of games to be the zerg effectively defeating themselves. I get the feeling a lot of times that I can be more flexible, with better control, and better macro than my opponent in the long run, but he still gets a really good shot at winning simply because he can test my complex build at one key point and if it's not setup perfectly on my end I'll just fall over dead. | ||
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purerythem
United States245 Posts
On August 15 2010 05:24 iEchoic wrote: Agreed, I come from AoE and the community is so much more mature than this one. The balance problems were far worse in AoE but the good players who played the weaker races took it as a creative challenge. On SC2 the good players take it as an opportunity to find excuses for themselves. It really is disappointing and a huge turn off from this game. I think the people who say SC has the greatest community are either wrong or I just am not seeing it. except this isn't AoE, it's sc2, the follow up to the worlds most popular, successful, and hardcore rts game in history. | ||
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imperator-xy
Germany1377 Posts
cool isnt z for some weeks now sen is probably 2nd best zerg but he didnt win anything until now, the rest isnt "very succesful" either, only time you see them is reps where they are loosing against random terrans youve never heard of before | ||
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Bommes
Germany1226 Posts
On August 15 2010 05:32 Cranberries wrote: Do you play Terran? I find it odd how some Protosses and most Zergs are saying Terran might by slightly too good, and all the Terran players deny it. I also say that Terran is too good. And therefore I understand that Dimaga changes his race. But why doesn't he wait like a month till the patch comes out? Let Blizzard some time, and if you want to switch your race because of financial reasons do it, but don't start crying in front of the community and say Blizzard didn't let you decide the race you want to play because it's not playable, which is not true. | ||
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Brad
2754 Posts
On August 15 2010 05:33 f0rk wrote: They were played just as phase 2 started. Everyone was rusty and the meta game was only just starting to change to where it is now. What point are you trying to make? DIMAGA didn't like the balance of Zerg then, he doesn't like the balance of Zerg now. Hence, he is switching to Terran. It's not like Zerg play has changed since then. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On August 15 2010 05:34 purerythem wrote: except this isn't AoE, it's sc2, the follow up to the worlds most popular, successful, and hardcore rts game in history. I don't see how that excuses the poor sportsmanship and lack of competitive spirit from the community. The NBA is far more popular and successful but the athletes don't make excuses for themselves. Kobe Bryant didn't blame his finger injury for losing a single time throughout the season or the postseason. If our SC2 players were NBA stars they'd be blaming the refs or injuries after every single game. Switching races because you think things are difficult isn't good sportsmanship. It's pathetic, uncompetitive, and weak-willed. | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On August 15 2010 05:34 purerythem wrote: except this isn't AoE, it's sc2, the follow up to the worlds most popular, successful, and hardcore rts game in history. lol TL was a lot better before it got ballooned due to SC2. The community was smaller, but tighter and much more well managed. Then there was this massive influx of users that registered due to SC2, and the quality has dipped since. | ||
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Ruthless
United States492 Posts
On August 15 2010 05:24 iEchoic wrote: Agreed, I come from AoE and the community is so much more mature than this one. The balance problems were far worse in AoE but the good players who played the weaker races took it as a creative challenge. On SC2 the good players take it as an opportunity to find excuses for themselves. It really is disappointing and a huge turn off from this game. I think the people who say SC has the greatest community are either wrong or I just am not seeing it. Aoe players all pick the best civ for the patch. Wcg was all japan or all dutch both times it was featured for wcg. People didnt whine they lamed. The only good players lamed or sat on points that just didnt matter. Im surprised you could call the aoe community mature haha | ||
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moonylo
Germany68 Posts
It was a up and down for almost every race, but the most important part was, that most of these up- and downswings were induced by new playstyles. I think some Zerg even got some kind of "hero title" for finding a new way to play with the swarm. It might be true, that Blizzard does change things. But then finally someone finds a new way to play with zerg and it'll be imbalanced in the other direction and blizzard will have to jump in again. And damn, it was such a long time and took several month or even years before someone finally found out how to play several matchups in a new way in sc:bw. So if someone is talking about imbalance, he'd rather say that he just has no clue how to play it differently. People will come out with a different way sooner or later. The only thing I absolutely have to agree with, is that Terrans currently have a much easier plan (their own plan, without adapting too much) while Zergs have to adapt very much and defend themselves - not really playing their own game. However, zergs are not harassing enough after this period and just totally forget that after this early period they dont just have to defend but can start getting active on their own. Edit: Maybe the last part is even wrong. Maybe Zergs dont have to be weak in the first period. Maybe someone will find a new way with not getting a fast hatch immediatelly or generally very early in the game. | ||
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Arakash
Germany124 Posts
On August 15 2010 05:23 DreXxiN wrote: T was "useless" race on release for those that didn't know, even when it remained unchanged people started getting really good with it when it wasn't believable? No! Terran was at the start of the Beta quite weak against Zerg and quite Strong against Protoss (bigger EMP Radius, concussive shells right on start, the early worker-Maurader Death push). But the weakness against Zerg were only a few things: first, the tanks sucked, because they shot IN FRONT of the unit they were targeting meaning the splash was horrible if you didn't manually adjust the Target (and almost always you first shot was wasted), so as T you went Bio, wich got destroyed by Banelings. (also things like non-splash thors which were horrible against Mutalisks, etc.) JUST after the Tank buff Terran got reaally strong (and you can see that, since Tank damage immedialty went from 70-60(?) to 50 in the next patch). It was NOT that "even when it remained unchanged people started getting really good with it". Unchanged Terran would still be destroyed verry hard by Zerg >_>. | ||
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SoL[9]
Portugal1370 Posts
 Whats next?? Idra change to Protoss? | ||
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Brad
2754 Posts
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figq
12519 Posts
I think it's fine. We should realize that we are currently playing Wings of Liberty. Terran Dominion etc. Meanwhile, non-pro zergs can use the opportunity to develop certain aspects of the race to the max. Tarrans lose from all that jazz, because their race remains relatively underdeveloped. (SCV alt+R?) And DIMAGA is a great player and obviously not just crying; he just has a serious life investment and can't afford to rely on hopeful creativity and patience. He has done a lot for Zerg, and will return later. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On August 15 2010 05:40 Ruthless wrote: Aoe players all pick the best civ for the patch. Wcg was all japan or all dutch both times it was featured for wcg. People didnt whine they lamed. The only good players lamed or sat on points that just didnt matter. Of course the best races are going to move on. But the Portugal players didn't wallow in pools of tears 24/7. They practiced and worked together and saw it as a challenge, as did I. | ||
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Furycrab
Canada456 Posts
Popularity =! Balance, Popularity however = The pace at which the play will evolve making it even harder for a Zerg player to fall back on "safer" timings. As for those saying: Well Blizzard isn't saying anything. Anything they would say would be interpreted as promises that something is going to change, or signs that they think something may or may not be unbalanced, and with rather significant amounts of money on the line in some of these tournaments, I would rather not change the game and offer the players the choice to what race they want to play, than risk changes that could drastically alter the outcome of various tournaments, changes that in the beta, certain players have been quite vocal about... *cough* Idra *cough* | ||
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MichaelJLowell
United States610 Posts
On August 15 2010 05:27 Kurr wrote: I completely agree. It's hard to be creative with Zerg but I think players were spoiled with 1 supply roaches 1a2a3a to victory and still have not gotten past that nerf and tried to use different strategies. I love watching Madfrog and TLO (when he plays Zerg) play. Idra makes it work but honestly it's just because he's way better than most of the other players. Yes the matchup favors Terran but trying a strategy that you've lost with over and over again is not going to fix that unless you have better micro and macro than your opponent. Take Warcraft III. Ensnare was considered useless. Nobody used it. What happened? People realized a free-to-use immobilization ability may be a good thing when units are at a premium. The Blademaster was also considered useless. High damage? Who cares? A-click, focus fire him, goodbye. The Blademaster "sucked". Then he got two buffs. One removed the collision size on Wind Walk (so you can't surround invisible Blademasters) and another increased the damage of Wind Walk. These occurred in 2004. Nothing changed. The Blademaster still "sucked". Then people realized: "Hey, an unkillable, fast-moving hero may be great for playing map control!" And with the help of Ensnare, Orcs turned into the dominant Warcraft III race...in 2007. Like everyone else, Humans whined. But guess what? They tried new abilities. The Bloodmage. Also "useless". Banish? Useless. Siphon Mana? Useless. Except...Banish the Blademaster...Siphon Mana the Shadow Hunter...harass with Flamestrike...wow, the Bloodmage is a viable first choice against Orcs! And how does a Bloodmage get into an Orc base without getting gunned down? Exploiting Orc's lack of detection with a spell called Invisibility...another "useless" spell. None of this occurred overnight, and none of it occurred because the Warcraft III community was rewarded with a balance patch for their complaints. Players got better, they exhausted the game's limits, they experimented. And quite frankly, I expect better from a lot of people on this board. It's been two weeks. Experiment, exhaust, get better. And this is not a reflection on my ability as a player. I'm far from the best here. But I don't blame anyone but myself for those losses. Yeah, Dimaga has a financial imperative to get the best results. But he screwed himself over the moment he said "I can't win unless I play race X". To someone like me, that tells me that he has no confidence in his ability to win. That is very difficult baggage to tote at the highest level of play. | ||
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purerythem
United States245 Posts
On August 15 2010 05:38 iEchoic wrote: I don't see how that excuses the poor sportsmanship and lack of competitive spirit from the community. The NBA is far more popular and successful but the athletes don't make excuses for themselves. Kobe Bryant didn't blame his finger injury for losing a single time throughout the season or the postseason. If our SC2 players were NBA stars they'd be blaming the refs or injuries after every single game. you're missing the point. The vast majority of this community played the lights out of sc1. Sc1 was a game of near perfect harmony in every aspect, which is why it was so popular. You don't find it a bit out of the ordinary that such a large % of players, including top professional, are complaining about the blatent imba? It's not like they lose a few games and come to TL and scream IMBA!! Your comparison to the nba would be that if kobe misses a shot, he would report a malfunction of the rim to the head of the NBA saying its not perfectly round, its off axis, ect... Poor sportsman ship has nothing to do with game balance. Sure it may fuel the fire, but at the end of the day, the results speak for themselves when comparting T and Z. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On August 15 2010 05:33 Piy wrote: Just want to throw in that TheSTC was an incredibly talented BW player. Much better than his mediocre career in BW would indicate. So he's probably going to be one of the best Korean Terrans. Just saying. Ya i remember him. Sumadream replays were totally awesome and he had a spectacular fail versus saviors hold lurkers. The thing is, if he were really that great, I would think he would have made a name for himself in phase 1. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On August 15 2010 05:43 purerythem wrote: Sure it may fuel the fire, but at the end of the day, the results speak for themselves when comparting T and Z. What results? The data from sc2ranks that says that Zerg has about the same win% as well as the same demographics in diamond leagues with respect to race popularity? Or have you compiled data from tournaments? I'd like to see it. Keep in mind that through the beta, T players never won tournaments. Z and P players dominated every single tournament minus a couple. Things changed, not because of balance changes, but because of the natural ebb and flow of strategy in an RTS game. | ||
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