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Nah. Terran just had to learn to use factories instead of massing bio.
nice try.
"mech is not viable !!!!"
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I've heard people debating the concept of "effort" and that one shouldn't complain if he has to put forth more effort, but really there is a big disparity between the two races in question.
Thors is a good example. Lets say 6 thors are headed out to a zerg base. All a terran has to do is A+move the thors into the zerg base and go afk, meanwhile a zerg has to get zerglings ready, a LOT of zerglings, get a surround on the thors, hope that the thors dont have armor upgrades which can make zerglings attacks next to nothing, hope that the terran doesn't have SCVs repairing the thors (scvs can cause the attack-move AI on zlings to run around in front of the SCVs attacking the thor), hope the thors dont have a few blue hellions in tow which any decent terran player will, since the only decent counter to thors is zlings, Try to NP some of the thors with their balsa wood and cardboard casters, use the thors to attack the other thors, and take down the NP thors before 12 seconds is up, by which time most of the zerglings are likely melted, and build something in the zerg arsenal that can "clean up" the remaining thors which is no easy task since they 2 shot hydras and 3 or 4 shot roaches, have 400hp 1 armor, and the strike cannon and air splash.
All that, meanwhile terran is A+move. That's in my opinion is a decent example of the somewhat large amount of "effort" a zerg has to put forth in some situations where the terran has to do very little.
Sorry im not trying to QQ, but there have been situations i've encountered, that lead me to agree with many things that was mentioned in the OP. I think there is definitely some meat to what Dimaga said.
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On August 15 2010 05:19 schisch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 05:18 imperator-xy wrote:On August 15 2010 05:17 schisch wrote:On August 15 2010 05:16 imperator-xy wrote:On August 15 2010 05:12 schisch wrote:On August 15 2010 05:10 imperator-xy wrote:On August 15 2010 05:07 schisch wrote:
why do the korean people dont whine about zerg? what the fuck are you talking about isnt cool and freedom switching their races not enough to you lol 2 people well they have actually been the best 2 korean zerg people korean doesnt what stop editing my post i reported u
i didnt edit your post i wrote an own post
just figured out what was terribly wrong in your post
reporting me doesnt make zerg balanced in any way. just leave if you dont understand this game
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On August 15 2010 05:21 MichaelJLowell wrote:
I thought this was the forum where people play the hell out of Starcraft and render it a science? Right now, I just see a bunch of people complaining about a matchup where no Zergs play for Contaminate, Nydus Worms, and Burrow in a phase of the game's competitive history where the raw mechanical ability of players is still very weak.
The game is two weeks into its retail phase. It'd be one thing to spent the next year exhausting every strategy and giving up. It's another to dismiss your available options because they "don't appear to work".
I completely agree. It's hard to be creative with Zerg but I think players were spoiled with 1 supply roaches 1a2a3a to victory and still have not gotten past that nerf and tried to use different strategies.
I love watching Madfrog and TLO (when he plays Zerg) play. Idra makes it work but honestly it's just because he's way better than most of the other players.
Yes the matchup favors Terran but trying a strategy that you've lost with over and over again is not going to fix that unless you have better micro and macro than your opponent.
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On August 15 2010 05:22 Brad wrote:
Anyone who watched DIMAGA's games against White-Ra (The other ones also.) in the 'King of the Beta' tournament; knows that DIMAGA has problem with playing Zerg at the moment. He was just trying to do these All-in busts every game.
Those games are too old to be taken as evidence of anything.
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On August 15 2010 05:15 imperator-xy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 05:12 cArn- wrote:
lol dimaga switching race surely doesn't mean something is wrong with Z, it only means he's not confortable with it. There are a lot of very succesful zerg players out there so figure out tell me 1 player except for idra
Fanta (july)
Check
Sen
Cool
Gerrared
On August 15 2010 05:16 kNyTTyM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 04:49 NuKedUFirst wrote:On August 15 2010 04:46 Iggyhopper wrote:
Skill gap people, skill gap. Korean player are indeed top players in a list, but that is because they have the amazing APM and skills to actually make Zerg a good race to play as. Doesn't mean that Zerg is balanced, or isn't having trouble in the other 99% of players that can barely manage a 220 APM. APM isn't the issue. Just because 1 player spams between hotkeys more then another doesn't make him a better player. Zerg has to deal with the timings and when to make what. On August 15 2010 04:45 Nokarot wrote:On August 15 2010 04:43 NuKedUFirst wrote:On August 15 2010 04:41 Nokarot wrote:
You guys all remember that Idra was Protoss early-beta, right? And he switched to Zerg because, at the time, they were the strongest race, right?
All of you are making it out to seem like this is an unspeakable act and/or that your heroes haven't done it before. Dimaga is right- it's his job, and he needs to produce results. If he and his employers think that Terran is the best option, its within their power and reasonably justified. I don't see how IdrA's switch is relevant. It's not like anyone just goes "hey im going to play zerg" without trying it out first. He tried every race and chose what best suited his style. Except he played Protoss primarily, for a decent period of time, and then publically stated that he was switching to zerg because protoss was underpowered and zerg was really strong. So yes, its completely relevent. On August 15 2010 04:48 floor exercise wrote:On August 15 2010 04:46 Iggyhopper wrote:
Skill gap people, skill gap. Korean player are indeed top players in a list, but that is because they have the amazing APM and skills to actually make Zerg a good race to play as. Doesn't mean that Zerg is balanced, or isn't having trouble in the other 99% of players that can barely manage a 220 APM. zerg sucks in Korea too FOR SURE http://sc2ranks.com/ Do you have a source or are you trying to prove a point? IdrA was playing protoss when warp in was completely imbalanced. I don't think it was a "OP / UP" problem. If so please state the source. The ladder doesn't really matter. It is the tournaments. There aren't many reported but I take Idra's word. WTA Takedown+ Show Spoiler +Finals thestc (t) vs. ensnare (t) Score: oGs (5) - (0) Prime
Game 1 - oGsEnsnare (T) > GerrardPrime (Z)
Game 2 - oGsEnsnare (T) > CheckPrime (Z)
Game 3 - oGsEnsnare (T) > MaKaPrime (T)
Game 4 - oGsEnsnare (T) > hanniblePrime (T)
Game 5 - oGsEnsnare (T) > DayFlyPrime (T)
Notice prime doesn't even try to send out protoss or another zerg. They had junwi who nears the top of the KR ladder and is a former bw progamer
Ensnare beat Check and Gerrared ok. That is 2 zerg players.
thestc 3-2 cool? I don't see how there is anything wrong with that..
BRB finding a game where Zerg 3-2 Terran...
On August 15 2010 05:28 Arakash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 04:21 EleanorRIgby wrote:
all these zergs saying they want to switch to terran and i have not seen one successfully do it Tester did as far as i know >_>
I don't understand what you are implying ? Tester (oGsSKs) plays protoss.
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/424
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On August 15 2010 04:21 EleanorRIgby wrote:
all these zergs saying they want to switch to terran and i have not seen one successfully do it
Tester did as far as i know >_>
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From what I hear, all he does is baneling bust 
In KOTB, I remember he tried baneling bust against all of his opponents every time. It's not the race, it's the player. Listen to Day[9]'s cast 
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On August 15 2010 05:27 f0rk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 05:22 Brad wrote:
Anyone who watched DIMAGA's games against White-Ra (The other ones also.) in the 'King of the Beta' tournament; knows that DIMAGA has problem with playing Zerg at the moment. He was just trying to do these All-in busts every game. Those games are too old to be taken as evidence of anything.
How are they too old? Nothing has changed since then. He had a problem then, he has a problem now.
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On August 15 2010 05:27 Kurr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 05:21 MichaelJLowell wrote:
I thought this was the forum where people play the hell out of Starcraft and render it a science? Right now, I just see a bunch of people complaining about a matchup where no Zergs play for Contaminate, Nydus Worms, and Burrow in a phase of the game's competitive history where the raw mechanical ability of players is still very weak.
The game is two weeks into its retail phase. It'd be one thing to spent the next year exhausting every strategy and giving up. It's another to dismiss your available options because they "don't appear to work". I completely agree. It's hard to be creative with Zerg but I think players were spoiled with 1 supply roaches 1a2a3a to victory and still have not gotten past that nerf and tried to use different strategies. I love watching Madfrog and TLO (when he plays Zerg) play. Idra makes it work but honestly it's just because he's way better than most of the other players. Yes the matchup favors Terran but trying a strategy that you've lost with over and over again is not going to fix that unless you have better micro and macro than your opponent.
thats the only thing in your post that was worth reading
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10387 Posts
On August 15 2010 05:21 MichaelJLowell wrote:
I thought this was the forum where people play the hell out of Starcraft and render it a science? Right now, I just see a bunch of people complaining about a matchup where no Zergs play for Contaminate, Nydus Worms, and Burrow in a phase of the game's competitive history where the raw mechanical ability of players is still very weak.
The game is two weeks into its retail phase. It'd be one thing to spent the next year exhausting every strategy and giving up. It's another to dismiss your available options because they "don't appear to work".
Ok so why aren't you a top Zerg if you got all these great ideas?
This goes for all those people who keep saying Zergs/the community are just whining and aren't trying hard enough or thinking outside of the box enough. All you guys do is throw out some arbitrary ideas and don't even present a solid solution yourselves, so just shut the hell up.
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I like that Dimaga does that, but not at this point in time. The game was released 3 weeks ago and metagame changes all the time. I'm not saying that Zerg is fine and that there is no balance patch needed. But why does he even try to put pressure on Blizzard with such a comment. It's completely unnecessary and if the worst case comes true Blizzard decides that they have to set a signal and put their balance patch up way too early with changes that increase imbalance instead of fixing it.
I can understand that he has also financial reasons to play good, but the last games I saw from him reached from not well thought out strategies to average execution. Again, I can totally understand his decision, because I think he can do way better, maybe with terran. But putting up a statement like that 3 weeks after the release of a game at a stage where zerg might have problems, but is still able to win tournaments, is simply, sorry I can't express it in other words, retarded.
I hope Blizzard doesn't get influenced by it, because balancing an already quite balanced game which is highly influenced by the map pool where metagame changes all the time (especially 3 weeks after release) is HARD.
If he changes his race quietly I'm absolutely fine with that and I think it's absolutely reasonable to do that if you are a progamer
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Zerg does have trouble with Terran in the current meta-game, but I can't see a month being long enough to gauge balance. The last major change to the match up came at the end of Beta. It's only been a few weeks since then.
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On August 15 2010 05:27 NuKedUFirst wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 05:15 imperator-xy wrote:On August 15 2010 05:12 cArn- wrote:
lol dimaga switching race surely doesn't mean something is wrong with Z, it only means he's not confortable with it. There are a lot of very succesful zerg players out there so figure out tell me 1 player except for idra Fanta (july) Check Sen Cool Gerrared Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 05:16 kNyTTyM wrote:On August 15 2010 04:49 NuKedUFirst wrote:On August 15 2010 04:46 Iggyhopper wrote:
Skill gap people, skill gap. Korean player are indeed top players in a list, but that is because they have the amazing APM and skills to actually make Zerg a good race to play as. Doesn't mean that Zerg is balanced, or isn't having trouble in the other 99% of players that can barely manage a 220 APM. APM isn't the issue. Just because 1 player spams between hotkeys more then another doesn't make him a better player. Zerg has to deal with the timings and when to make what. On August 15 2010 04:45 Nokarot wrote:On August 15 2010 04:43 NuKedUFirst wrote:On August 15 2010 04:41 Nokarot wrote:
You guys all remember that Idra was Protoss early-beta, right? And he switched to Zerg because, at the time, they were the strongest race, right?
All of you are making it out to seem like this is an unspeakable act and/or that your heroes haven't done it before. Dimaga is right- it's his job, and he needs to produce results. If he and his employers think that Terran is the best option, its within their power and reasonably justified. I don't see how IdrA's switch is relevant. It's not like anyone just goes "hey im going to play zerg" without trying it out first. He tried every race and chose what best suited his style. Except he played Protoss primarily, for a decent period of time, and then publically stated that he was switching to zerg because protoss was underpowered and zerg was really strong. So yes, its completely relevent. On August 15 2010 04:48 floor exercise wrote:On August 15 2010 04:46 Iggyhopper wrote:
Skill gap people, skill gap. Korean player are indeed top players in a list, but that is because they have the amazing APM and skills to actually make Zerg a good race to play as. Doesn't mean that Zerg is balanced, or isn't having trouble in the other 99% of players that can barely manage a 220 APM. zerg sucks in Korea too FOR SURE http://sc2ranks.com/ Do you have a source or are you trying to prove a point? IdrA was playing protoss when warp in was completely imbalanced. I don't think it was a "OP / UP" problem. If so please state the source. The ladder doesn't really matter. It is the tournaments. There aren't many reported but I take Idra's word. WTA Takedown+ Show Spoiler +Finals thestc (t) vs. ensnare (t) Score: oGs (5) - (0) Prime
Game 1 - oGsEnsnare (T) > GerrardPrime (Z)
Game 2 - oGsEnsnare (T) > CheckPrime (Z)
Game 3 - oGsEnsnare (T) > MaKaPrime (T)
Game 4 - oGsEnsnare (T) > hanniblePrime (T)
Game 5 - oGsEnsnare (T) > DayFlyPrime (T)
Notice prime doesn't even try to send out protoss or another zerg. They had junwi who nears the top of the KR ladder and is a former bw progamer Ensnare beat Check and Gerrared ok. That is 2 zerg players. thestc 3-2 cool? I don't see how there is anything wrong with that.. BRB finding a game where Zerg 3-2 Terran...
i looked for all the korean finals I could (hard to find). And this is thestc who made absolutely no splash in the early beta beating the #1 zerg in the world.
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By some messed up logic Blizzard probably decided to make each race better for their respective expansions 
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Let's see if he can play terran well. Only time will tell.
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On August 15 2010 05:29 Bommes wrote:I like that Dimaga does that, but not at this point in time. The game was released 3 weeks ago and metagame changes all the time. I'm not saying that Zerg is fine and that there is no balance patch needed. But why does he even try to put pressure on Blizzard with such a comment. It's completely unnecessary and if the worst case comes true Blizzard decides that they have to set a signal and put their balance patch up way too early with changes that increase imbalance instead of fixing it. I can understand that he has also financial reasons to play good, but the last games I saw from him reached from not well thought out strategies to average execution. Again, I can totally understand his decision, because I think he can do way better, maybe with terran. But putting up a statement like that 3 weeks after the release of a game at a stage where zerg might have problems, but is still able to win tournaments, is simply, sorry I can't express it in other words, retarded. I hope Blizzard doesn't get influenced by it, because balancing an already quite balanced game which is highly influenced by the map pool where metagame changes all the time (especially 3 weeks after release) is HARD. If he changes his race quietly I'm absolutely fine with that and I think it's absolutely reasonable to do that if you are a progamer
Do you play Terran?
I find it odd how some Protosses and most Zergs are saying Terran might by slightly too good, and all the Terran players deny it.
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On August 15 2010 05:16 kNyTTyM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 04:49 NuKedUFirst wrote:On August 15 2010 04:46 Iggyhopper wrote:
Skill gap people, skill gap. Korean player are indeed top players in a list, but that is because they have the amazing APM and skills to actually make Zerg a good race to play as. Doesn't mean that Zerg is balanced, or isn't having trouble in the other 99% of players that can barely manage a 220 APM. APM isn't the issue. Just because 1 player spams between hotkeys more then another doesn't make him a better player. Zerg has to deal with the timings and when to make what. On August 15 2010 04:45 Nokarot wrote:On August 15 2010 04:43 NuKedUFirst wrote:On August 15 2010 04:41 Nokarot wrote:
You guys all remember that Idra was Protoss early-beta, right? And he switched to Zerg because, at the time, they were the strongest race, right?
All of you are making it out to seem like this is an unspeakable act and/or that your heroes haven't done it before. Dimaga is right- it's his job, and he needs to produce results. If he and his employers think that Terran is the best option, its within their power and reasonably justified. I don't see how IdrA's switch is relevant. It's not like anyone just goes "hey im going to play zerg" without trying it out first. He tried every race and chose what best suited his style. Except he played Protoss primarily, for a decent period of time, and then publically stated that he was switching to zerg because protoss was underpowered and zerg was really strong. So yes, its completely relevent. On August 15 2010 04:48 floor exercise wrote:On August 15 2010 04:46 Iggyhopper wrote:
Skill gap people, skill gap. Korean player are indeed top players in a list, but that is because they have the amazing APM and skills to actually make Zerg a good race to play as. Doesn't mean that Zerg is balanced, or isn't having trouble in the other 99% of players that can barely manage a 220 APM. zerg sucks in Korea too FOR SURE http://sc2ranks.com/ Do you have a source or are you trying to prove a point? IdrA was playing protoss when warp in was completely imbalanced. I don't think it was a "OP / UP" problem. If so please state the source. The ladder doesn't really matter. It is the tournaments. There aren't many reported but I take Idra's word. WTA Takedown+ Show Spoiler +Finals thestc (t) vs. ensnare (t) Score: oGs (5) - (0) Prime
Game 1 - oGsEnsnare (T) > GerrardPrime (Z)
Game 2 - oGsEnsnare (T) > CheckPrime (Z)
Game 3 - oGsEnsnare (T) > MaKaPrime (T)
Game 4 - oGsEnsnare (T) > hanniblePrime (T)
Game 5 - oGsEnsnare (T) > DayFlyPrime (T)
Notice prime doesn't even try to send out protoss or another zerg. They had junwi who nears the top of the KR ladder and is a former bw progamer
Not to mention latest Zotac Cup:
Semis:
Socke(P)>Satiini(T)
SjoW(T)>Tarson(T)
Final:
SjoW(T)>Socke(P)
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On August 15 2010 05:28 Brad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 05:27 f0rk wrote:On August 15 2010 05:22 Brad wrote:
Anyone who watched DIMAGA's games against White-Ra (The other ones also.) in the 'King of the Beta' tournament; knows that DIMAGA has problem with playing Zerg at the moment. He was just trying to do these All-in busts every game. Those games are too old to be taken as evidence of anything. How are they too old? Nothing has changed since then. He had a problem then, he has a problem now.
They were played just as phase 2 started. Everyone was rusty and the meta game was only just starting to change to where it is now.
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On August 15 2010 05:31 kNyTTyM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 05:27 NuKedUFirst wrote:On August 15 2010 05:15 imperator-xy wrote:On August 15 2010 05:12 cArn- wrote:
lol dimaga switching race surely doesn't mean something is wrong with Z, it only means he's not confortable with it. There are a lot of very succesful zerg players out there so figure out tell me 1 player except for idra Fanta (july) Check Sen Cool Gerrared On August 15 2010 05:16 kNyTTyM wrote:On August 15 2010 04:49 NuKedUFirst wrote:On August 15 2010 04:46 Iggyhopper wrote:
Skill gap people, skill gap. Korean player are indeed top players in a list, but that is because they have the amazing APM and skills to actually make Zerg a good race to play as. Doesn't mean that Zerg is balanced, or isn't having trouble in the other 99% of players that can barely manage a 220 APM. APM isn't the issue. Just because 1 player spams between hotkeys more then another doesn't make him a better player. Zerg has to deal with the timings and when to make what. On August 15 2010 04:45 Nokarot wrote:On August 15 2010 04:43 NuKedUFirst wrote:On August 15 2010 04:41 Nokarot wrote:
You guys all remember that Idra was Protoss early-beta, right? And he switched to Zerg because, at the time, they were the strongest race, right?
All of you are making it out to seem like this is an unspeakable act and/or that your heroes haven't done it before. Dimaga is right- it's his job, and he needs to produce results. If he and his employers think that Terran is the best option, its within their power and reasonably justified. I don't see how IdrA's switch is relevant. It's not like anyone just goes "hey im going to play zerg" without trying it out first. He tried every race and chose what best suited his style. Except he played Protoss primarily, for a decent period of time, and then publically stated that he was switching to zerg because protoss was underpowered and zerg was really strong. So yes, its completely relevent. On August 15 2010 04:48 floor exercise wrote:On August 15 2010 04:46 Iggyhopper wrote:
Skill gap people, skill gap. Korean player are indeed top players in a list, but that is because they have the amazing APM and skills to actually make Zerg a good race to play as. Doesn't mean that Zerg is balanced, or isn't having trouble in the other 99% of players that can barely manage a 220 APM. zerg sucks in Korea too FOR SURE http://sc2ranks.com/ Do you have a source or are you trying to prove a point? IdrA was playing protoss when warp in was completely imbalanced. I don't think it was a "OP / UP" problem. If so please state the source. The ladder doesn't really matter. It is the tournaments. There aren't many reported but I take Idra's word. WTA Takedown+ Show Spoiler +Finals thestc (t) vs. ensnare (t) Score: oGs (5) - (0) Prime
Game 1 - oGsEnsnare (T) > GerrardPrime (Z)
Game 2 - oGsEnsnare (T) > CheckPrime (Z)
Game 3 - oGsEnsnare (T) > MaKaPrime (T)
Game 4 - oGsEnsnare (T) > hanniblePrime (T)
Game 5 - oGsEnsnare (T) > DayFlyPrime (T)
Notice prime doesn't even try to send out protoss or another zerg. They had junwi who nears the top of the KR ladder and is a former bw progamer Ensnare beat Check and Gerrared ok. That is 2 zerg players. thestc 3-2 cool? I don't see how there is anything wrong with that.. BRB finding a game where Zerg 3-2 Terran... i looked for all the korean finals I could (hard to find). And this is thestc who made absolutely no splash in the early beta beating the #1 zerg in the world.
Just want to throw in that TheSTC was an incredibly talented BW player. Much better than his mediocre career in BW would indicate.
So he's probably going to be one of the best Korean Terrans.
Just saying.
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EPT
