EPTOn August 08 2010 20:27 Nyovne wrote:
Really enjoyed this, thank you very much for the read!
Really enjoyed this, thank you very much for the read!
So that means you'll stop rushing me with your gay 6 rax? :p
Nice read though! Props to OP <3
How to Get More Fun (and Less Rage) Out of SC2 - Page 5
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Baksteen
Netherlands438 Posts
So that means you'll stop rushing me with your gay 6 rax? :p Nice read though! Props to OP <3 | ||
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
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Deleted User 81929
243 Posts
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Kindred
Canada396 Posts
When I play I focus sometimes so much on winning that I get nervous, angry, etc and it makes me hate 1v1. This post has made me see the light. thank you <3 | ||
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LittLeD
Sweden7973 Posts
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xtfftc
United Kingdom2343 Posts
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retro-noob
110 Posts
On August 08 2010 09:15 Full wrote: Nice post, enjoyable read. Flow - bit of a cheesy name though? Yeah, it's goofy. | ||
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cArn-
Korea (South)824 Posts
On August 08 2010 09:16 Grond wrote: But Blizzard has been telling me for years that I need more rage. Hahaha, nice one (yes, I've been playing one for years too) Very good read, and true stuff. Also about flow it's something I've experiencing a lot when I was playing CS and DotA, I was in this state more often than not, and it feels wonderful. However in SC2, it's really far from being the case lol, and when I finish a game while playing in such state I'm like "wow, how did I pull this off". I guess that's a state you encounter in the majority of your games when you start reaching a pro level, or at least in games involving something not random ones. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
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TheFear
United States55 Posts
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kalendae
United States47 Posts
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retro-noob
110 Posts
On August 13 2010 02:21 kalendae wrote: so flow is just a renaming of the adrenaline response? No, but adrenaline does stimulate some of the same parts of the brain (indirectly) that are involved in experiences of flow. So there may be some overlap, some times you get both or some characteristics shared, but adrenaline alone is by no means sufficient for getting the psychological effect described by flow. Otherwise, we'd feel like we're in flow whenever we were scared or anxious or angry, but those states are closer to opposites of flow. Conversely, we'd never be able to sustain flow for hours on end or in mundane situations if it relied on adrenaline, but people do it all the time. | ||
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Clearout
Norway1060 Posts
Really interesting read, something I will try out. | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
First, flow is different from other states of meditation which do provide joy. Finding flow p32, "When we are in flow, we are not happy, because to experience happiness we must focus on our inner states, and that would take away attention form the task at hand". Having fun and less rage would have much more to do with the mindset one brings to the game. Also take point #6 which is balance between ability level and challenge level. Note the sources wikipedia cites for these steps, date 1975/1993. I suspect Csíkszentmihály has made some changes since then. Do an image search for "flow channel", which seems to be what he means by point 6. But how does the flow channel chart reconcile with the chart on page 1 and the Wikipedia entry? Is flow possible as low skill and low challenge or is that just apathy? Perhaps lower states of flow are possible at lower levels. I suspect the recommendation, if one can manage it, would be to involve oneself with high challenges not a balance, though that might mean anxiety/arousal. In any case, as typical with states of altered consciousness understanding is hardly in the stated knowledge and more in the practice and experience. | ||
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retro-noob
110 Posts
On August 13 2010 03:35 Knickknack wrote: I suppose this is an okay intro to being in the zone for people who don't know much about it, but the op lacks depth and does not seem to understand the subject much past bullet points. I don't want to get into an argument about psychology minutia here, but I'll respond to these points because I don't appreciate the accusation that I am lacking in understanding and depth, especially because I don't think your points show my post to be lacking in either. First, flow is different from other states of meditation which do provide joy. Finding flow p32, "When we are in flow, we are not happy, because to experience happiness we must focus on our inner states, and that would take away attention form the task at hand". Having fun and less rage would have much more to do with the mindset one brings to the game. You're conflating a more technical definition of happiness with the common, colloquial one. Your quotation is about a more narrow, technical definition of happiness as a subjective sense of well-being. Due to the nature of flow, one will not be focused on assessing one's well-being in a state of flow. So you're not "happy" but you may very well be feeling awesome. It's important not to confuse this more technical meaning with the common one. Flow is almost universally reported as a positive experience. Technically, that experience might not BE happiness, but because this is a Starcraft website, the colloquial use of the world probably covers it. That being said, regular experiences of flow HAVE been shown to make people happier overall in multiple studies by people in the field of positive psychology (such as Lyubomirsky, Seligman, Fordyce, and others). In fact, here's Csikszmentmihalyi himself in 2004 giving a talk in which he extensively talks about flow and happiness, even using words like ecstasy, joy, fulfillment etc.-- http://www.ted.com/talks/mihaly_csikszentmihalyi_on_flow.html. Also take point #6 which is balance between ability level and challenge level. The references on Wikipedia point to works of 1993/1975. Do an image search for "flow channel". That is what this point is referring to. As consistent with my experience, Csíkszentmihályi seems to have changed this. See the imagine on the first page of this tread or the Wikipedia entry. There is no more flow channel, and note how balance between low skill level and low challenge becomes recognized as apathy. However, Csíkszentmihály suggests that perhaps lower states of flow are avxailable at lower skill levels. Thus the recommendation becomes to involve yourself with high challenges, and remain in anxiety->arousal->flow if you can manage it. You're misunderstanding this point, I think. The amount of challenge and the amount of skill are both determined subjectively. That is to say, whatever you think is easy is low challenge, and whatever you think is a simple skill counts as low skill. Whatever you think is hard, whatever you think is a difficult skill, that's what counts for placing an experience on that graph. So I wrote about people trying to get better at the game (meaning that for them, the challenge is going to be relatively high, at least in the top-right quadrant). The typical problem for an SCII player is that the amount of challenge becomes higher than the amount of skill. That's where people get anxious or worried (and enraged as a result). My recommendation is that people pick challenges that they think are just the right difficulty for them right now. Usually, that means backing up (to get out of the worry and anxiety zone), and then making progress through baby-steps. You say the recommendation is to involve yourself in high challenges, but that's incomplete. The recommendation is to involve yourself in a level of challenge that gets you into a positive experience (relaxation, control, flow, and maybe arousal). If you involve yourself in a level of challenge that is much higher than your skills, you will not experience anything positive at all. So as I said in the OP, you ought to match your skill to the challenge that you pick (and it was clearly implied in the OP that I'm not talking about someone who would pick something easy that takes no skill--that's boring and rarely if ever an issue for members of TL). If you do a reasonably good job of balancing the skill with the challenge, you should at least land in some kind of positive experience. In any case, as typical with states of altered consciousness understanding is hardly in the stated knowledge and more in the practice and experience. And how does one practice it? How do you learn to get to those experiences? Through stated knowledge. Flow (and the neighboring positive states) has been proven to be teachable and coachable based on a knowledge of the conditions that get you there. Furthermore, many people have already told me that they've benefited from this post immediately, after simply reading this and applying it to their SCII time that same day. So it appears that they gained an understanding of this state of consciousness by first reading about it here and only then going out and experiencing it. Anyway, I hope that helps others who come across this thread better understand this subject if they're interested, and I think I've shown to my satisfaction both in the OP and here that my understanding goes beyond bullet points and can be at least trusted enough for the purposes of playing Starcraft. | ||
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blackodd
Sweden451 Posts
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Psilocin
Norway10 Posts
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
1. When clicking on this thread I did not expect to find an overview of flow. While the flow state can be seen as finding a way to finding SC fun and having less rage...how often do you think people are going to be able to achieve a flow state and thus be more happy and rage less due to that? Overall, more ordinary things such as trying to moderating mindset toward the game are easier to realize and probably would make more difference to these factors. Also details such as the flow state itself not being merriment/playfulness/enjoyment/etc bear mentioning. 2. This will take a long time to unpack. I wrote about Csikszentmihalyi's work, the flow state, and point 6 specifically. As I said, with that bullet point, you were regarding the flow channel chart. Basically the point is stating a necessary but not sufficient condition for flow. Other lists have left it off but put similarly "Knowing the activity is doable - that the skills are adequate". My recommendation was made in regard to having the fastest progression in order to be involved in states of higher complexity. Here are some quotes: Finding flow p30, "Flow tends to occur when a person's skills are fully involved in overcoming a challenge that is just about manageable." p32, "[arousal] is not a bad position to be in; in arousal a person feels mentally focused, active, and involved--but not very strong, cheerful, or in control. How can one return to the more enjoyable flow state? ... By learning new skills. [Control] is also a positive state of experience, where one feels happy, strong, satisfied. But one tends to lack concentration, involvement, and a feeling that what one does is important. ... Thus arousal and control are very important states for learning." 1993/1975 are the dates that Wikipedia notes for those 10 steps. 1991 in "Flow: the psychology of optimal experience" the flow channel chart is used, but not the other one. 1998, "Finding flow: the psychology of engagement with everyday life" the flow channel chart is not used, but rather the other one. The point being that Csikszentmihalyi has been exploring flow for a long time, and it seems he has changed some of his views, and changed charts. The newer chart is more complex and a better depiction. In the flow channel chart, it looks as if one can be at low-low and be in flow. On the newer chart, low-low puts one in apathy. This is congruent with my experience, but as I suggested, flow is not a all or nothing state, and at lower complexity perhaps lower/different states are available. Such as one gardening and having a flow state, although it rarely occurs in passive leisure actives. Something Csikszentmihalyi said in a talk which seems plausible is that our nervous system can only process so much data. In flow, people don't have enough attention left over to monitor certain aspects. If one is low-skill low-challenge it makes sense that they will have lots of data path left over, which is an absence which can mean apathy. p32 Finding Flow, Csikszentmihalyi alludes to the primary purpose of the original flow channel graph, "The graph can also be read to indicate why flow leads to personal growth". In a perfect world one could be in the flow state all the time for a game, but in reality one often goes to the sides, so improving they reach back to flow. He was not saying make sure to have the necessary condition of knowing you can do the activity you are doing adaquately. The flow state is some to do with perception, some do with reality, the other factors. A bullet point, a chart, and some words don't exactly capture it. 3. It is certainly a weakness of Csikszentmihalyi work that he deals mostly with the conditions of flow and does not give much practical advice.My relationship with flow has been one of spontaneity in sports in which I had a good degree of technical ability. It comes rarely, it goes, but can it be caught? First piece of advice would be to read everything you can which should give you ideas. To start I'd suggest Josh Waitzkin's book the art of learning. Second, begin a meditation practice. For instance this article shows a practice, and some steps to start: http://www.seishindo.org/articles/mushin_in_aikido_philosophy.html Much more than that, I can not say. | ||
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retro-noob
110 Posts
2. I feel like I already addressed this point. Matching your skill level to the challenge will always put you into the flow area of the new chart assuming that what you are doing is at least somewhat challenging to you. The center point of the chart is your set point. If you are off a little, you're likely to venture into one of the other desirable states. On the other hand, if the challenge is far too high, you will not have a positive experience. Regardless, it's an interesting subject. I'm glad you find it interesting as well. | ||
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