EPTdoesnt it counter everything no matter if your even or behind after early game
TvZ Balance Suggestions - Page 59
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imperator-xy
Germany1377 Posts
doesnt it counter everything no matter if your even or behind after early game | ||
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Cotonou
42 Posts
* Reduce the spawning pool build time by 10, 15 seconds. This will get the entire zerg machine running a bit earlier to help defend against some of these deadly openings, and its not like early ling rushes are a threat currently. * Remove thor anti-air AoE, buff Thor anti-air to the point where it can two-shot a muta. Its not like the muta will be able to kill the thor in the mineral line anyway. * Allow multiple injects on a single hatchery at diminishing returns. 1st inject: 5 larva. 2nd: 3 larva. 3rd+: 1 larva. The energy isn't strictly wasted while still encouraging close attention. * Expand both the creep-radius and creep-spread-rate of creep tumors. If the zerg need that creep to maneuver, then at least give 'em a good path to get it. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On August 12 2010 09:31 Cotonou wrote: Well how about this then. * Reduce the spawning pool build time by 10, 15 seconds. This will get the entire zerg machine running a bit earlier to help defend against some of these deadly openings, and its not like early ling rushes are a threat currently. * Remove thor anti-air AoE, buff Thor anti-air to the point where it can two-shot a muta. Its not like the muta will be able to kill the thor in the mineral line anyway. * Allow multiple injects on a single hatchery at diminishing returns. 1st inject: 5 larva. 2nd: 3 larva. 3rd+: 1 larva. The energy isn't strictly wasted while still encouraging close attention. * Expand both the creep-radius and creep-spread-rate of creep tumors. If the zerg need that creep to maneuver, then at least give 'em a good path to get it. I agree with everything you just said explicitly, except for the Thor bit. FOUR MUTAS can kill a thor. It just takes a little bit of spreading out. I wouldn't want to take that aspect of micro out of the game. | ||
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st3roids
Greece538 Posts
1 Protoss HuK 2 Protoss TTOne 3 Terran qxc 4 Terran ajtls 5 Protoss KiWiKaKi 6 Zerg IdrA 7 Zerg SLush 7 Terran SeleCT 9 Terran Neans 10 Terran Silver 11 Protoss Antimage 11 Terran Android 13 Terran drewbie 14 Protoss iNcontroL 15 Protoss Kurtz 16 Protoss Agh 16 Zerg Sheth 18 Protoss Katari 19 Terran Moo 20 Protoss SUGGY 20 Terran Darkshines blizzard official top 200 u can see the problem now right 3 zerg only in the top 20 ... none in the top 5 15% representation in the top 20 of the world is rubbish | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
Dayvie Z Huk P TTOne P FantaPrime Z AlexDeLarge T qxc T NEXGenuis P GlAdE Z Socke P 요츠바랑 T BratOK T Kiwikaki P Neans T 오지에서과일장수 Z ESCJung P JunwiPrime Z Dimaga Z Cloud T ajtls T Lucifron T That's six zergs, given, but population doesn't matter, especially with two of them in the top five. There's also only one Terran in the top five. If anything, this shows there's a lot of Terrans, and perhaps Protoss is overpowered. There are also six protoss, and eight Terran. | ||
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Cotonou
42 Posts
On August 12 2010 09:43 MythicalMage wrote: I agree with everything you just said explicitly, except for the Thor bit. FOUR MUTAS can kill a thor. It just takes a little bit of spreading out. I wouldn't want to take that aspect of micro out of the game. I've seen thors stand up to one hell of a pounding in a mineral line. A surround of repairing SCVs negates a ton of damage. Right now Thors behave as AoE super-turrets in this position, and it takes a couple dozen mutas to break a single one. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On August 12 2010 10:19 Cotonou wrote: I've seen thors stand up to one hell of a pounding in a mineral line. A surround of repairing SCVs negates a ton of damage. Right now Thors behave as AoE super-turrets in this position, and it takes a couple dozen mutas to break a single one. I've yet to see ANYONE spread mutas versus a thor in a replay or a high level casted game. And, may I remind you, that AoE repair was nerfed when the Thor size was lowered, meaning less SCVs can surround a Thor. Plus, repairs aren't cheap, especially on a Thor. Seems reasonable to stop mining time, AND to waste a ton of money you can stop some harass. | ||
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XazXio
United States356 Posts
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st3roids
Greece538 Posts
On August 12 2010 10:13 MythicalMage wrote: That's an old list. Let's look at a newer one, though accuracy is always debatable. This is from SC2ranks.com Dayvie Z Huk P TTOne P FantaPrime Z AlexDeLarge T qxc T NEXGenuis P GlAdE Z Socke P 요츠바랑 T BratOK T Kiwikaki P Neans T 오지에서과일장수 Z ESCJung P JunwiPrime Z Dimaga Z Cloud T ajtls T Lucifron T That's six zergs, given, but population doesn't matter, especially with two of them in the top five. There's also only one Terran in the top five. If anything, this shows there's a lot of Terrans, and perhaps Protoss is overpowered. There are also six protoss, and eight Terran. um sc2 ranks is not officiall blizzard fyi unless sc2 ranks , which is a random site has better stats than blizzard , which obviously it doesnt. fyi with 60% win rates in whole terran , zerg and random which is statisticall innacurate for starters let alone all the other stats theres been going so much bs from many here pointing in random sites asking for official blizzard stats. well official blizzard stats are here and zerg simply underperfom | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On August 12 2010 10:25 XazXio wrote: maybe zergs should just actually learn the counters to some units and omgg..... build the counter to the terrans army? :O its shocking i know but actually reacting to what they have might have to do something with it. terran is not op its just that players that say it is are a lower level of skill that doesnt want to try so they just baneling bust, 6 pool, or 1 hatch muta every tvt. if terran was op and zerg wasnt.... then how did idra win the king of beta. because he is good and he practices and knows the game and maybe people that think that its op should just learn the counters to it :O I'm totally against almost anything said in this thread, but even I know that isn't true. And saying that every zerg player is just bad is well . . .bad. It's racism, only you get to pick your race. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On August 12 2010 10:26 st3roids wrote: um sc2 ranks is not officiall blizzard fyi ltread pls Never said it was. The Blizzard ranks are a bit older though, so I thought I'd link something more recent. None of anything is really accurate right now, and I don't think it'd matter very much if it was. It's all conflicting. What anyone wouldn't give for some sold data. | ||
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Dave[9]
United States2365 Posts
On August 12 2010 10:25 XazXio wrote: maybe zergs should just actually learn the counters to some units and omgg..... build the counter to the terrans army? :O its shocking i know but actually reacting to what they have might have to do something with it. terran is not op its just that players that say it is are a lower level of skill that doesnt want to try so they just baneling bust, 6 pool, or 1 hatch muta every tvt. if terran was op and zerg wasnt.... then how did idra win the king of beta. because he is good and he practices and knows the game and maybe people that think that its op should just learn the counters to it :O You don't play zerg....do you? Who the fuck 1 hatch muta's ZvT? | ||
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Chriamon
United States886 Posts
On August 12 2010 10:25 XazXio wrote: maybe zergs should just actually learn the counters to some units and omgg..... build the counter to the terrans army? :O its shocking i know but actually reacting to what they have might have to do something with it. terran is not op its just that players that say it is are a lower level of skill that doesnt want to try so they just baneling bust, 6 pool, or 1 hatch muta every tvt. if terran was op and zerg wasnt.... then how did idra win the king of beta. because he is good and he practices and knows the game and maybe people that think that its op should just learn the counters to it :O Something tells me you haven't actually played Z. First of all, your point about Idra is moot. Idra himself says that T is stronger, and, as you said, he is one of the most qualified to speak about that. Now, I don't necessarily agree, but that is because the level of Ts that I face is far below the level that Idra faces. Also, I have never 6 pooled or 1 hatch muta against a T, its just dumb, and the few times I have baneling busted against T, it worked. And like you said, "If T is OP and Z isn't, how did Idra win the KotB? Because he is good and he practices and knows the game." I think you just answered your own question. | ||
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shwaffles
United States117 Posts
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On August 12 2010 10:35 shwaffles wrote: Before we make any changes to T/Z units, we first need more zerg-friendly maps. Couldn't agree more. | ||
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Fitz
Canada77 Posts
1 US Protoss HuK 2 US Random dayvie 3 US Protoss TTOne 4 KR Zerg FantaPrime 5 EU Protoss aTnSocke 6 EU Terran AlexDeLarge 7 US Terran qxc 8 KR Protoss NEXGenius 9 SEA Zerg GLaDe 10 KR Terran 요츠바랑 11 EU Terranr oxkisBratOK 12 US Protoss KiWiKaKi 13 KR Random 오지에서과일장수 14 KR Zerg JunwiPrime 15 EU Zerg mTwDIMAGA 16 EU Terran ClouD 17 US Terran ajtls 17 EU Terran LucifroN 17 KR TerranoGsEnsnare 20 KR Protoss 테란짱이긔 This is the more accurate data from sc2ranks.com. And this ranking is the 20 top players in the world, the 200 from blizzard is only in the USA. For some odd reason you listed both top random players as zergs. Zergs arnt asking for major things, just little things there and there to improve the early ZvT. I personaly believe that something has to be done centered around the free bunkers and the usefulness of a trio of cheap gasless hellions. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On August 12 2010 11:00 Fitz wrote: Once we get decent maps, then you can make that statement. It may very well be true, and it likely is on these maps. But I hope to god we evolve into something decent for all the races. + Show Spoiler + 1 US Protoss HuK 2 US Random dayvie 3 US Protoss TTOne 4 KR Zerg FantaPrime 5 EU Protoss aTnSocke 6 EU Terran AlexDeLarge 7 US Terran qxc 8 KR Protoss NEXGenius 9 SEA Zerg GLaDe 10 KR Terran 요츠바랑 11 EU Terranr oxkisBratOK 12 US Protoss KiWiKaKi 13 KR Random 오지에서과일장수 14 KR Zerg JunwiPrime 15 EU Zerg mTwDIMAGA 16 EU Terran ClouD 17 US Terran ajtls 17 EU Terran LucifroN 17 KR TerranoGsEnsnare 20 KR Protoss 테란짱이긔 This is the more accurate data from sc2ranks.com. And this ranking is the 20 top players in the world, the 200 from blizzard is only in the USA. For some odd reason you listed both top random players as zergs. Zergs arnt asking for major things, just little things there and there to improve the early ZvT. I personaly believe that something has to be done centered around the free bunkers and the usefulness of a trio of cheap gasless hellions. | ||
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st3roids
Greece538 Posts
Its hillarius no unit should do this , clearly demonstrating what crap in the early game zerg has tp put up with terran. Maybe som1 else can do this , cause windows 7 messed up few programs ive been using. | ||
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XazXio
United States356 Posts
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On August 12 2010 11:32 st3roids wrote: Im trying to capture a picture from tlo vs madfrog game in lost temple when tlo sends a thor up the clif and decimates the whole expansion with the 10 range. Its hillarius no unit should do this , clearly demonstrating what crap in the early game zerg has tp put up with terran. Maybe som1 else can do this , cause windows 7 messed up few programs ive been using. Thors ground attack has a range of six, and that has nothing to do with TERRAN. That's a map flaw, not a Terran flaw. | ||
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