races in the top 50 zerg 8 terran 26 protoss 15 random 2 (thats 51 because 2 players are on 50)
there are so many random former wc3 players that are so horrible i could beat many of them in phase 1 (im zerg), it cant be that all of them are suddenly europes best players
now please could anyone tell me a good counter to mech i know that zerglings are good vs tanks and thors but if he builds hellions then you cant build any ground until you get ultras so there must be some secret if the terran players are right
Are reapers the problem? How much would the game change, really, if reapers were removed?
As protoss, I can _never_ get greedy at the start or go for a traditional zealot build because of the mere threat of reapers. It forces me down a path.
As Zerg, it's just another strategy they need to account for in their builds.
Once the early early game is over, the use of reapers goes down dramatically. So why not simply get rid of the unit altogether. Terran are mighty powerful in the midgame because they can pretty safely hunker down. Removing one of their early, early offensive weapons will allow zerg/protoss get real aggressive early on and deny Terrans an easy path to the midgame.
On August 12 2010 17:33 heishe wrote: i have no idea why mule doesn't have a cooldown, seriously.
Probably an awkward compromise given the fact that if you use spawn larva, you can drone/army whore off the saved larvae, but you can't do the same with MULEs (e.g. if there's no immediate benefit, you can save spawned larvae for later, but you can't do the same with MULEs because of timed life).
Perhaps something like putting MULE on a CD, but letting you load them into the OC to prevent their timed life from expiring is the appropriate solution?
how does not being able to save mules matter at all? at least to me there seems to be no logical reason to wait 2 mins and then using the mules instead of using them right then and there (if you could only use 1 at a time because of the cooldown I mean). if you use the mule you can save up the minerals for later which is the same thing.
That's exactly the point. You WANT to use MULEs as soon as possible, thats the most natural thing ever right?
But what if you forget for 2 minutes? Oh that's ok, just hit the button 4 times instead of once.
Compare to Spawn Larva. You WANT to use Spawn Larva every 30 seconds. But what happens if you forget for 2 minutes? You hit it once, because you can't Spawn Larva multiple times on 1 hatchery.
Do Orbital Command and Queens both have other stuff to use energy on? You betcha, but one has the option of saving the "macro ability" up and just spamming it all at once, the other doesn't.
On August 12 2010 21:43 kar1181 wrote: Are reapers the problem? How much would the game change, really, if reapers were removed?
As protoss, I can _never_ get greedy at the start or go for a traditional zealot build because of the mere threat of reapers. It forces me down a path.
As Zerg, it's just another strategy they need to account for in their builds.
Once the early early game is over, the use of reapers goes down dramatically. So why not simply get rid of the unit altogether. Terran are mighty powerful in the midgame because they can pretty safely hunker down. Removing one of their early, early offensive weapons will allow zerg/protoss get real aggressive early on and deny Terrans an easy path to the midgame.
Reapers are a poorly designed unit. And I say this as a Terran player.
They're a one-shot-wonder unit designed solely for a single purpose, and are only effective in the early game. They put undue amounts of pressure on what options are available to each race in the early part of the game in all 3 matchups. They're just not interesting. It's sort of cool to watch someone micro them, but ultimately all of it is the same thing.
It's rare that a unit's only purpose can be boiled down to a single word. "Harass". Most well-designed units feel like they're more multidimensional.
On August 12 2010 17:33 heishe wrote: i have no idea why mule doesn't have a cooldown, seriously.
Probably an awkward compromise given the fact that if you use spawn larva, you can drone/army whore off the saved larvae, but you can't do the same with MULEs (e.g. if there's no immediate benefit, you can save spawned larvae for later, but you can't do the same with MULEs because of timed life).
Perhaps something like putting MULE on a CD, but letting you load them into the OC to prevent their timed life from expiring is the appropriate solution?
how does not being able to save mules matter at all? at least to me there seems to be no logical reason to wait 2 mins and then using the mules instead of using them right then and there (if you could only use 1 at a time because of the cooldown I mean). if you use the mule you can save up the minerals for later which is the same thing.
That's exactly the point. You WANT to use MULEs as soon as possible, thats the most natural thing ever right?
But what if you forget for 2 minutes? Oh that's ok, just hit the button 4 times instead of once.
Compare to Spawn Larva. You WANT to use Spawn Larva every 30 seconds. But what happens if you forget for 2 minutes? You hit it once, because you can't Spawn Larva multiple times on 1 hatchery.
Do Orbital Command and Queens both have other stuff to use energy on? You betcha, but one has the option of saving the "macro ability" up and just spamming it all at once, the other doesn't.
erm... yeah, that's exactly my point. you might want to read the nested quotes
On August 12 2010 11:32 st3roids wrote: Im trying to capture a picture from tlo vs madfrog game in lost temple when tlo sends a thor up the clif and decimates the whole expansion with the 10 range.
Its hillarius no unit should do this , clearly demonstrating what crap in the early game zerg has tp put up with terran.
Maybe som1 else can do this , cause windows 7 messed up few programs ive been using.
Thors ground attack has a range of six, and that has nothing to do with TERRAN. That's a map flaw, not a Terran flaw.
o rly , if zerg had faster aa it wouldnt have matter now would it .
but aa for zerg comes after expansion + upgrade which is too late and 1 base play is no option.
terran who knows whats his doing just plays with the zerg , is just too many unskilled terrans , who still use 1 base push , occupying diamond spots so zerg can have a chance so far
On August 12 2010 15:02 Techno wrote: I think we should wait a few months and then see how the Metagame of Zerg feels.
Remember when mech was sooo not "viable"? Blizzard nerfed tanks damage and now mech is unstoppable!! Yay .... .... Also. Dont statistics actually show that Zerg players are slightly ahead of terran in win %?
This is just not true. Blizzard changed the way splash damage works from being centered at the front of the target to be centered in the middle of the target, and that is what made mech "viable". After that they nerfed the damage to help compensate.
The statistics your thinking of show that in diamond every race has about 56 win %, which only shows that the matchmaking works well.
Making mules cost 25 energy like all the other macro mechanics sounds pretty good to me.
I also definitely agree with the Viking / Thor range reduction; Corrupters have less range than vikings even though they're dedicated anti-air while vikings can land and attack ground, and Thors make muta harass impossible. Why shouldn't Terran have to micro to stop muta harass?
On August 12 2010 21:43 kar1181 wrote: Are reapers the problem? How much would the game change, really, if reapers were removed?
As protoss, I can _never_ get greedy at the start or go for a traditional zealot build because of the mere threat of reapers. It forces me down a path.
As Zerg, it's just another strategy they need to account for in their builds.
Once the early early game is over, the use of reapers goes down dramatically. So why not simply get rid of the unit altogether. Terran are mighty powerful in the midgame because they can pretty safely hunker down. Removing one of their early, early offensive weapons will allow zerg/protoss get real aggressive early on and deny Terrans an easy path to the midgame.
Reapers are a poorly designed unit. And I say this as a Terran player.
They're a one-shot-wonder unit designed solely for a single purpose, and are only effective in the early game. They put undue amounts of pressure on what options are available to each race in the early part of the game in all 3 matchups. They're just not interesting. It's sort of cool to watch someone micro them, but ultimately all of it is the same thing.
It's rare that a unit's only purpose can be boiled down to a single word. "Harass". Most well-designed units feel like they're more multidimensional.
EDIT: I really wish Blizzard had kep the D8 charge (bomb) thing as a spell/ability for reapers - if it did mild damage to a large area, then it'd be useful en masse and not too powerful early game. That or they could make it take a very long time to explode.
The hardest part for me in ZvT is, that every unit outranges mine by far.
Terran can turtle and shoot all crawling or flying or tunneling things to pieces before they even reach his doorstep. If he feels confortable enough, he moves out and sieges my bases one by one. I can only defend by throwing wave after wave of units at him and keep him busy. Although the cost effectiveness is so terrible, that the terran will simply stomp you in the ground.
It just seems unfair, that the terran has such a confortable position. I think thats even more annoying than the imbalances.
On August 12 2010 15:02 Techno wrote: I think we should wait a few months and then see how the Metagame of Zerg feels.
Remember when mech was sooo not "viable"? Blizzard nerfed tanks damage and now mech is unstoppable!! Yay .... .... Also. Dont statistics actually show that Zerg players are slightly ahead of terran in win %?
This is just not true. Blizzard changed the way splash damage works from being centered at the front of the target to be centered in the middle of the target, and that is what made mech "viable". After that they nerfed the damage to help compensate.
i think thats not right
mech has always been viable, most people were just too stupid to use it instead cheesy wc3 players just did 1base mmm because its easier to handle
if you played vs mech before that patch it was already so hard to play against
but i think before roach supply was put on 2 and they lost their regeneration upgrade you could beat terran with 200/200 supply roaches
On August 12 2010 15:02 Techno wrote: I think we should wait a few months and then see how the Metagame of Zerg feels.
Remember when mech was sooo not "viable"? Blizzard nerfed tanks damage and now mech is unstoppable!! Yay .... .... Also. Dont statistics actually show that Zerg players are slightly ahead of terran in win %?
This is just not true. Blizzard changed the way splash damage works from being centered at the front of the target to be centered in the middle of the target, and that is what made mech "viable". After that they nerfed the damage to help compensate.
i think thats not right
mech has always been viable, most people were just too stupid to use it instead cheesy wc3 players just did 1base mmm because its easier to handle
if you played vs mech before that patch it was already so hard to play against
but i think before roach supply was put on 2 and they lost their regeneration upgrade you could beat terran with 200/200 supply roaches
This is true (last part). Terran sits in-base, and you can't attack - you can only wait for him to push out and overwhelm with a nice surround using max food roaches/hydras. Now that roaches are 2 supply, Zerg just sits there waiting to die with his miniscule army.
but i think before roach supply was put on 2 and they lost their regeneration upgrade you could beat terran with 200/200 supply roaches
O like terran couldnt have pull some banshees or bcs and clear roaches up.
Atm terran can switch even faster tech with the 1/1/1 build , they can build whatever they feel like free behind wallins and as zerg u cant see it and been prepared for it.
fyi with the scout , i have watched like 100 replays the last few days and not even 1 zerg player can scout well vs descent terrans.
they usually cant scout at all or they see the half picture
Half picture is even worse in many times than no picture just like half truths are worse than lies and there so many half truths throwed here from terran players
Now that roaches are 2 supply, Zerg just sits there waiting to die with his miniscule army.
hydras got nerf as well , atm they been getting couple shotted ffrom siege tanks , banshees or bcs.
Its just not worth it having hydras vs terran atm , not that mutas cut it either
On August 12 2010 15:02 Techno wrote: I think we should wait a few months and then see how the Metagame of Zerg feels.
Remember when mech was sooo not "viable"? Blizzard nerfed tanks damage and now mech is unstoppable!! Yay I really don't see imbalance and Im trying to look objectively. People keep trying to "prove" that Terran macro is too easy, Terran micro is too easy and Mech is just too damn easy to win with. I think it just looks easy when your hydras get blown to shit by 5 well positioned tanks. In most games that I play and even watch, the Zerg player goes way too hard into Hydralisks and just keeps sending 12 or so at a time at the Terran player. Zerg players can't do army exchanges because there army producing building is the same as their worker producing building. Every dead hydralisk could have been a drone.
I feel that alot of terran players just found out that if you harass zerg they stay all nice and quiet in their base until your slow glass tanks get across the map and into position. Best explanation: some noisy zerg players lost 5 in a row and spread the word about the "imbalance" of TvZ, zerg players read threads about the imbalance of TvZ and now just roll over and take it when they get matched up against terran, instead of trying to find out a new style.
Zerg needs to get creative. Spend 30 minutes in a build order tester and see what you can push out with at 5 minutes. I don't know what I can say to you guys other than gl hf.
Also. Dont statistics actually show that Zerg players are slightly ahead of terran in win %?
People thought mech wasn't viable before thor did any aoe damage. Having thor counter all air is what makes mech so difficult.
On August 12 2010 15:02 Techno wrote: I think we should wait a few months and then see how the Metagame of Zerg feels.
Remember when mech was sooo not "viable"? Blizzard nerfed tanks damage and now mech is unstoppable!! Yay I really don't see imbalance and Im trying to look objectively. People keep trying to "prove" that Terran macro is too easy, Terran micro is too easy and Mech is just too damn easy to win with. I think it just looks easy when your hydras get blown to shit by 5 well positioned tanks. In most games that I play and even watch, the Zerg player goes way too hard into Hydralisks and just keeps sending 12 or so at a time at the Terran player. Zerg players can't do army exchanges because there army producing building is the same as their worker producing building. Every dead hydralisk could have been a drone.
I feel that alot of terran players just found out that if you harass zerg they stay all nice and quiet in their base until your slow glass tanks get across the map and into position. Best explanation: some noisy zerg players lost 5 in a row and spread the word about the "imbalance" of TvZ, zerg players read threads about the imbalance of TvZ and now just roll over and take it when they get matched up against terran, instead of trying to find out a new style.
Zerg needs to get creative. Spend 30 minutes in a build order tester and see what you can push out with at 5 minutes. I don't know what I can say to you guys other than gl hf.
Also. Dont statistics actually show that Zerg players are slightly ahead of terran in win %?
People thought mech wasn't viable before thor did any aoe damage. Having thor counter all air is what makes mech so difficult.
This is why nerfing Thor range would make muta + mass ground more viable vs mech.
I want to see reapers being abused in korea, like replays you know. Thanks.
P.S - They have to think about this carefully because if they kneejerk nerf to every zerg QQ then terran will be not competitive. Idra did make a joke about Terran not being that competitive in SC1 and viola a new build came out that made terran a bit better
terran who knows whats his doing just plays with the zerg , is just too many unskilled terrans , who still use 1 base push , occupying diamond spots so zerg can have a chance so far
On this map, an earlier hatch and a spine crawler would've dealt with that harrass.
The Zerg player had so much free time to mass 12 mutas and end the game instead he opted for ultras, which is just retarded when your off 2 bases.
As a zerg you have to be prepared for everything, and have every possible tech structure. Want to harass? - get a spire! Opponent going mech, and you want to survive the mid game push? - get roaches! Opponent is going heavy bio? - get baneling nest! Then get infestation pit! Then later get ultralisks!
And the worst part is that zerg has a really hard time scouting so choosing what tech structure to build before the next becomes even a harder choice.
EPT
