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TvZ Balance Suggestions - Page 63

Forum Index > SC2 General
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FC.Strike
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States621 Posts
August 12 2010 22:10 GMT
#1241
On August 12 2010 07:49 MythicalMage wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2010 07:40 TheYango wrote:
On August 12 2010 04:06 Shiladie wrote:
Reaper rushes arn't what close a game off, which is why you don't see people 'losing to a reaper rush' Reaper rushes force the zerg player into a very specific confined set of possible strats, all of which extremely hurt the zerg's econ. You don't even need to do damage with reapers for them to win you the day.

It's all about how the terran can do so many different things that spell instant death for a zerg if they are unprepared, that they need to do so many different things to stay alive, simply because there's the threat of it there.

It all really boils down to that early game though, with reapers and bunker rushes.

Once you get to where you were in SC1, where you can afford to hatch-first, defending everything else gets a lot easier, because an earlier 2 gas economy lets you tech faster and you can afford to spread out your tech a bit more to be safe against things.

Funny you should mention this. + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]



Taking something completely out of context isn't clever or smart. Don't misquote people.
--------------------------> My Smiley Face Disagrees, Your Argument is Invalid -------------------------->
TRAP[yoo]
Profile Joined December 2009
Hungary6026 Posts
August 12 2010 22:15 GMT
#1242
On August 13 2010 06:24 oldahe wrote:
Dear Friends,

I understand how it is easier to complain about alleged imba, rather the trying to just play better. Sure, the game is in an early stage, sure some stuff needs to be sorted out. Here i give you TLO´s most recent Zerg vs Terran ownage. Its a great example on how Zerg has a ton of options to deal with terran.

http://tv.esl.eu/de/vod/22313

gg


can i ask you a question? why bother posting if you have no clue?!

read the thread carefully and realize that a terran who goes nearly all bio is not a problem in the slightest. this match says NOTHING about balance...its the arguably best german player against a guy from blizzard...wtf.
in the game he loses the thor in a stupid fashion and does zero damage against the zerg because hes afraid of zerglings who are running into a wallin...
and the only things tlo does are infestor harass(which he is kinda known for in zvt) and a drop on a terran who is already dead because hes one base against three.
FTD
MythicalMage
Profile Joined May 2010
1360 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-12 22:21:25
August 12 2010 22:19 GMT
#1243
On August 13 2010 07:10 FC.Strike wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2010 07:49 MythicalMage wrote:
On August 12 2010 07:40 TheYango wrote:
On August 12 2010 04:06 Shiladie wrote:
Reaper rushes arn't what close a game off, which is why you don't see people 'losing to a reaper rush' Reaper rushes force the zerg player into a very specific confined set of possible strats, all of which extremely hurt the zerg's econ. You don't even need to do damage with reapers for them to win you the day.

It's all about how the terran can do so many different things that spell instant death for a zerg if they are unprepared, that they need to do so many different things to stay alive, simply because there's the threat of it there.

It all really boils down to that early game though, with reapers and bunker rushes.

Once you get to where you were in SC1, where you can afford to hatch-first, defending everything else gets a lot easier, because an earlier 2 gas economy lets you tech faster and you can afford to spread out your tech a bit more to be safe against things.

Funny you should mention this. + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]



Taking something completely out of context isn't clever or smart. Don't misquote people.

I was just saying that this isn't anything new. It's always been a complaint, and if they didn't feel the need to fix it in Brood War, I don't see the need to fix it now with nerfed SCVs.
EDIT: And how was I misquoting? I was making a bit of a satire, if anything, but that is a literal post Day9 made in 2005.
MythicalMage
Profile Joined May 2010
1360 Posts
August 12 2010 22:20 GMT
#1244
On August 13 2010 07:15 TRAP[yoo] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2010 06:24 oldahe wrote:
Dear Friends,

I understand how it is easier to complain about alleged imba, rather the trying to just play better. Sure, the game is in an early stage, sure some stuff needs to be sorted out. Here i give you TLO´s most recent Zerg vs Terran ownage. Its a great example on how Zerg has a ton of options to deal with terran.

http://tv.esl.eu/de/vod/22313

gg


can i ask you a question? why bother posting if you have no clue?!

read the thread carefully and realize that a terran who goes nearly all bio is not a problem in the slightest. this match says NOTHING about balance...its the arguably best german player against a guy from blizzard...wtf.
in the game he loses the thor in a stupid fashion and does zero damage against the zerg because hes afraid of zerglings who are running into a wallin...
and the only things tlo does are infestor harass(which he is kinda known for in zvt) and a drop on a terran who is already dead because hes one base against three.

That actually brings up a good point. Bio is horribly underpowered. If mech was nerfed, as everyone seems to want, then Bio would need a buff or twenty. Seems really game breaking, IMO.
Iggyhopper
Profile Joined July 2010
United States259 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-12 22:33:28
August 12 2010 22:31 GMT
#1245
If mech is so bad after the patch that bio needs a buff, then maybe it's time for Terran to be completely redone. I mean Zerg retain 90% of what was in SC, Protoss retain 60%. It's Terran that went balls to the wall and has way too many changes, and with host-independent add-ons, it makes tech switching easy.
MythicalMage
Profile Joined May 2010
1360 Posts
August 12 2010 22:33 GMT
#1246
On August 13 2010 07:31 Iggyhopper wrote:
If mech is so bad after the patch that bio needs a buff, then maybe it's time for Terran to be completely redone. I mean Zerg retain 90% of what was in SC, Protoss retain 60%. It's Terran that went balls to the wall and has way too many changes.

It could be argued, and should be argued, that Zerg needs complete redoing. It's hard to say though, as PvZ seems pretty balanced, and TvP seems pretty balanced. Of course, according to Blizzard, every matchup is at around 50% win/loss at all levels of play, which is all anyone can hope for.
TRAP[yoo]
Profile Joined December 2009
Hungary6026 Posts
August 12 2010 22:34 GMT
#1247
bio is not underpowered but banelings just rape marines^^
and i have to agree...bio is very weak. another argument would be that you cant fight the zerg army directly but instead you have to use drops and such...sounds familiar
FTD
epik640x
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1134 Posts
August 12 2010 22:38 GMT
#1248
I don't think bio is weak at all. With medivacs and being able to stim and kite the entire zerg T1 force is pretty broken and medivacs need a nerf. Roaches don't even heal that fast burrowed with the healing upgrade.

Banelings may kill marines but that's all they kill and they are melee and expensive and take away lings.
MythicalMage
Profile Joined May 2010
1360 Posts
August 12 2010 22:40 GMT
#1249
On August 13 2010 07:34 TRAP[yoo] wrote:
bio is not underpowered but banelings just rape marines^^
and i have to agree...bio is very weak. another argument would be that you cant fight the zerg army directly but instead you have to use drops and such...sounds familiar

Banelings rape marines, and mutas rape marauders. . .hum, sounds beat to me. XD. Pretty much Muta Baneling Zergling destroys anything without tanks, effectively.
Iggyhopper
Profile Joined July 2010
United States259 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-12 22:42:53
August 12 2010 22:40 GMT
#1250
On August 13 2010 07:33 MythicalMage wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2010 07:31 Iggyhopper wrote:
If mech is so bad after the patch that bio needs a buff, then maybe it's time for Terran to be completely redone. I mean Zerg retain 90% of what was in SC, Protoss retain 60%. It's Terran that went balls to the wall and has way too many changes.

It could be argued, and should be argued, that Zerg needs complete redoing. It's hard to say though, as PvZ seems pretty balanced, and TvP seems pretty balanced. Of course, according to Blizzard, every matchup is at around 50% win/loss at all levels of play, which is all anyone can hope for.

If they get a buff -- Protoss already have a hard enough time bio. Zerg and Terran need tweaking.
MythicalMage
Profile Joined May 2010
1360 Posts
August 12 2010 22:41 GMT
#1251
On August 13 2010 07:38 epik640x wrote:
I don't think bio is weak at all. With medivacs and being able to stim and kite the entire zerg T1 force is pretty broken and medivacs need a nerf. Roaches don't even heal that fast burrowed with the healing upgrade.

Banelings may kill marines but that's all they kill and they are melee and expensive and take away lings.

Perhaps at a low level, but at the pro level, Zergs, like IdrA, do a little dance when the Terran doesn't go mech.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-12 22:54:15
August 12 2010 22:45 GMT
#1252
On August 13 2010 07:38 epik640x wrote:
I don't think bio is weak at all. With medivacs and being able to stim and kite the entire zerg T1 force is pretty broken and medivacs need a nerf. Roaches don't even heal that fast burrowed with the healing upgrade.

Banelings may kill marines but that's all they kill and they are melee and expensive and take away lings.

According to Idra, the only reason bio is playable at all is because tanks are absurdly strong regardless of whether you're playing bio and mech, and that Terran is riding a large enough economic advantage in the midgame that it doesn't matter if bio is weak.

If zerg weren't playing catch-up all game, infestors/banelings would be prohibitively strong against bio.
Moderator
EleanorRIgby
Profile Joined March 2008
Canada3923 Posts
August 12 2010 22:48 GMT
#1253
this is like reading one of those flavour of the month op class threads in the wow forums, zergs are well represented at the top of the ladders and arguments like "only newbs play terran" are just stupid
savior did nothing wrong
Iggyhopper
Profile Joined July 2010
United States259 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-12 22:57:27
August 12 2010 22:52 GMT
#1254
On August 13 2010 07:48 EleanorRIgby wrote:
this is like reading one of those flavour of the month op class threads in the wow forums, zergs are well represented at the top of the ladders and arguments like "only newbs play terran" are just stupid
It's very easy to tell a good Zerg from a bad Zerg. It's kind of hard to tell a good 'toss from a bad one.

Good Terran and bad Terran are only separated by micro. This also explains why the Korean Terran are owning Zerg. This is also why TLO is a very good Terran player. I'm pulling this out of my ass but from the things I see and hear, it's a good claim.
SpicyCrab
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
402 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-12 23:00:26
August 12 2010 22:59 GMT
#1255
To the terran and protoss players saying "stop whining."

You're right.

To the zerg players complaining that ZvT is "unbalanced"

You're right.

To the terran and protoss players saying "it's not unbalanced."

Please try it from the other side. See what it is like to lose to players you are obviously MUCH better than, see what it's like to barely squeeze out wins from complete noobs because they know how to build a couple tanks.

Seriously, try it out and tell me it's fair. Better yet, show us zerg (well actually I play random) players what we're supposed to be doing to overcome it, nobody else has been able to figure it out.

I'm such a baller in my dreams. - HiFriend
Antpile
Profile Joined March 2009
United States213 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-12 23:03:44
August 12 2010 23:02 GMT
#1256
I've never understood why it is such a crime if Bio can't solve everything by itself. The same goes for mech. Why is it the Terran race needs two seperate armies that are both entirely self sustainable?

I never see toss players claiming that they want their robo units to be an army in itself and require no gateway support. Zerg players never... well, i'm not even sure how you'd divide the zerg army into two seperate types.

Why is it so terrible if bio needs some tank support or if mech needs marines to keep air off of them? That's the whole reason the Thor was buffed as far as I can tell, so that the terran didn't have to make marines to fight mutas and could build an entirely mech army.

I personally think that was the patch that broke ZvT. In the same patch, they buffed the crap out of missile turrets and gave Thor's a very powerful AE air attack. The matchup went from zerg using mutas to counter mech (tanks mostly) to not being able to counter mech at all.
st3roids
Profile Joined June 2010
Greece538 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-12 23:03:44
August 12 2010 23:03 GMT
#1257
On August 13 2010 07:20 MythicalMage wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2010 07:15 TRAP[yoo] wrote:
On August 13 2010 06:24 oldahe wrote:
Dear Friends,

I understand how it is easier to complain about alleged imba, rather the trying to just play better. Sure, the game is in an early stage, sure some stuff needs to be sorted out. Here i give you TLO´s most recent Zerg vs Terran ownage. Its a great example on how Zerg has a ton of options to deal with terran.

http://tv.esl.eu/de/vod/22313

gg


can i ask you a question? why bother posting if you have no clue?!

read the thread carefully and realize that a terran who goes nearly all bio is not a problem in the slightest. this match says NOTHING about balance...its the arguably best german player against a guy from blizzard...wtf.
in the game he loses the thor in a stupid fashion and does zero damage against the zerg because hes afraid of zerglings who are running into a wallin...
and the only things tlo does are infestor harass(which he is kinda known for in zvt) and a drop on a terran who is already dead because hes one base against three.

That actually brings up a good point. Bio is horribly underpowered. If mech was nerfed, as everyone seems to want, then Bio would need a buff or twenty. Seems really game breaking, IMO.



pls before posting nonsense watch qxc vs machine bio ghost build , then come and tell us how bad it is


nvm i posted it so every1 can see

http://starcraft2reps.com/index.php?a=details&id=1127


MythicalMage
Profile Joined May 2010
1360 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-12 23:26:28
August 12 2010 23:23 GMT
#1258
So I think my post about bio deserves some explanation. Terran almost never go pure bio versus zerg. The few times I've seen it, it has been utterly crushed. IdrA, for example, in a recent interview said that bio was almsot completely inviable versus zerg, and cited that as a reason that BratOK's ZvT was utterly horrible.

About the replay: If you happened to watch Root Gaming's stream last night, you would have noticed that qxc tried the ghost mass snipe build against a drunken Sheth, and almost got utterly crushed. He only won, and barely at that, with a heavy marauder transition.
EDIT: The link to the root gaming thing can be found here.
fantastix
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany5 Posts
August 12 2010 23:25 GMT
#1259
On August 13 2010 07:40 MythicalMage wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2010 07:34 TRAP[yoo] wrote:
bio is not underpowered but banelings just rape marines^^
and i have to agree...bio is very weak. another argument would be that you cant fight the zerg army directly but instead you have to use drops and such...sounds familiar

Banelings rape marines, and mutas rape marauders. . .hum, sounds beat to me. XD. Pretty much Muta Baneling Zergling destroys anything without tanks, effectively.


dude that is just wrong, i can also say, marauder rape banelings and marines rape mutas, you gotmy point? ....
MythicalMage
Profile Joined May 2010
1360 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-12 23:28:46
August 12 2010 23:27 GMT
#1260
On August 13 2010 08:25 fantastix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2010 07:40 MythicalMage wrote:
On August 13 2010 07:34 TRAP[yoo] wrote:
bio is not underpowered but banelings just rape marines^^
and i have to agree...bio is very weak. another argument would be that you cant fight the zerg army directly but instead you have to use drops and such...sounds familiar

Banelings rape marines, and mutas rape marauders. . .hum, sounds beat to me. XD. Pretty much Muta Baneling Zergling destroys anything without tanks, effectively.


dude that is just wrong, i can also say, marauder rape banelings and marines rape mutas, you gotmy point? ....

Marines don't rape mutas. They're cost effective, sure, but they're not ideal. And banelings, and zerglings to a greater extent, do kill marauders. It may take five banelings to kill one marauder, but it'll kill the five other units around that marauder too.
EDIT: None of this matters. Muta baneling zergling is the most standard way to beat bio. Bio is anything but strong, in a professional scene.
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