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On August 13 2010 01:22 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
As a zerg you have to be prepared for everything, and have every possible tech structure. Want to harass? - get a spire! Opponent going mech, and you want to survive the mid game push? - get roaches! Opponent is going heavy bio? - get baneling nest! Then get infestation pit! Then later get ultralisks!
And the worst part is that zerg has a really hard time scouting so choosing what tech structure to build before the next becomes even a harder choice.
Overlord sacking? Changlings? Sacrificial Zerglings? Zergs have the most (and cheapest) ways to scout their opponent. Much more than they ever had in Brood War. Zergs have gotten lazy with their scouting over the past year, it seems.
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I think there are few problems with this matchup:
-The first one is siege tanks, they destroy any ground army against zerg so like DeMusliM said why terran should make other units like marauder, hellion, etc. to deal with a ground army when siege tank are so cost effective and can do better. I think siege tanks must be a counter to Hydralisk/infestor and maybe banelings but not speedlings/roach because there are already Hellion/marauder to deal with them. A unit which counter too many units (or every ground unit like siege tank:p) is an imbalance unit. But i don't realy know what can't be done to make siege tank balance.
-The second one is the actual early game for zerg, zerg is very vulnerable when you decide to play a macro game and not go all in. There are too many opens for terran, they literally dictate the build of the zerg it's easy to make a zerg over react because there is so many possibility of harass and all-in stuff.
-The third one is banelings, the mechanism of banelings is not working actually. They totally demolish any bio-mix but they are not supposed to counter marauder that way but only marines so the only response for banelings actually as a Terran when you play a bio mix is a line of siege tank.
But if they fix the problems with siege tanks and banelings, maybe another problem can appear but i'm not sure. When you hit a critical mass of marauder/medivac, as a zerg, i think there is nothing to deal with that in ground, except banelings of course which are not supposed to :p (Muta aren't a solution since it's the same problem with siege tank, thor>muta) maybe a mix of lings/hydra/infestor with decent upgrade or Ultra/lings/infestor but i'm not sure.
The balance of this game is endless...
P.S: sorry for my bad english, i tried my best
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On August 13 2010 08:51 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 01:22 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
As a zerg you have to be prepared for everything, and have every possible tech structure. Want to harass? - get a spire! Opponent going mech, and you want to survive the mid game push? - get roaches! Opponent is going heavy bio? - get baneling nest! Then get infestation pit! Then later get ultralisks!
And the worst part is that zerg has a really hard time scouting so choosing what tech structure to build before the next becomes even a harder choice. Overlord sacking? Changlings? Sacrificial Zerglings? Zergs have the most (and cheapest) ways to scout their opponent. Much more than they ever had in Brood War. Zergs have gotten lazy with their scouting over the past year, it seems.
Hm even with overlord sacking (this is talking early game) a terran with 3-4 marines and as long as the terran places his tech far enough that ovie will die before it gets far enough.
Zerglings/changlings from what I know of can't break through a wall (while once you get to lair scouting is a lot easier but its the early early game before lair that is tough even while saccing an overlord).
Now I am not saying tvz is imbalanced just saying problems with your argument. Personally I don't think about imbalance. I lose a game against terran I will blame it on my play not balance. even if terran is imbalanced its not like they are so imbalanced to where you can't win.
We'll see how it goes I as a zerg player in both bw and sc2 I always have my ups and downs. I swear its like against starcraft law to be godlike at all matchups as some periods my zvt is unstoppable and I rarley lose it then next I am losing it all the time and zvp is my god like match up. Live and learn but when people lose don't blame it on balance you'll never become a better player that way always blaming it on that.
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On August 13 2010 08:51 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 01:22 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
As a zerg you have to be prepared for everything, and have every possible tech structure. Want to harass? - get a spire! Opponent going mech, and you want to survive the mid game push? - get roaches! Opponent is going heavy bio? - get baneling nest! Then get infestation pit! Then later get ultralisks!
And the worst part is that zerg has a really hard time scouting so choosing what tech structure to build before the next becomes even a harder choice. Overlord sacking? Changlings? Sacrificial Zerglings? Zergs have the most (and cheapest) ways to scout their opponent. Much more than they ever had in Brood War. Zergs have gotten lazy with their scouting over the past year, it seems.
Whaaa ? The cheapest ways to scout ? Whats with the flying rax thats def the best, savest and cheapest way to scout in the game. Terran has by far and i mean no race is even remotely close(!!!) the best opportunities to scout with flying buildings and scans. If done well 1 time investing 150gold will scout your opponent almost perfectly until late midgame or lategame.
You can also use your fac and use it for offensive building hellions near or almost in your opponents base. There is a replay where HUK looses badly vs that.
Also medivacs are fast, relative durable and are almost standard in all matchups on most maps. The possibilities to scout seem endless and way too good as a terran.
Zerglings are not good to scout vs wallins. Overlords are "ok" but never scout the whole base vs good terrans or towers. Changelings die to ONE hit of a worker and you need t2 and 100gas..
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On August 13 2010 07:15 TRAP[yoo] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 06:24 oldahe wrote:Dear Friends, I understand how it is easier to complain about alleged imba, rather the trying to just play better. Sure, the game is in an early stage, sure some stuff needs to be sorted out. Here i give you TLO´s most recent Zerg vs Terran ownage. Its a great example on how Zerg has a ton of options to deal with terran. http://tv.esl.eu/de/vod/22313gg can i ask you a question? why bother posting if you have no clue?! read the thread carefully and realize that a terran who goes nearly all bio is not a problem in the slightest. this match says NOTHING about balance...its the arguably best german player against a guy from blizzard...wtf. in the game he loses the thor in a stupid fashion and does zero damage against the zerg because hes afraid of zerglings who are running into a wallin... and the only things tlo does are infestor harass(which he is kinda known for in zvt) and a drop on a terran who is already dead because hes one base against three.
next quote (different rage, same underlying failure to understand)
On August 13 2010 07:02 st3roids wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 06:24 oldahe wrote:Dear Friends, I understand how it is easier to complain about alleged imba, rather the trying to just play better. Sure, the game is in an early stage, sure some stuff needs to be sorted out. Here i give you TLO´s most recent Zerg vs Terran ownage. Its a great example on how Zerg has a ton of options to deal with terran. http://tv.esl.eu/de/vod/22313gg hi troll pls teach us tlo plays 90% terran , next cool swap from zerg ? Oo , this is rly ... whatever no point arguing
Lets go through the things TLO did and decide step by step if its really exclusively in the pro-gamers domain to do them, or if you, my dear sad and angry zerg players, can do the same. And btw: TLO is first and foremost terra and not zerg, Krisztof is an acclompished pro-gamer performing among the best in the European ladder, and not just another guy from blizzard.
1. Dropping using overlords.
a.) Filling up the overlords (you can do it)
b.) Flying to the enemies base (you can do it)
c.) Dropping stuff (you can do it)
d.) 1a2a3a (you can do it)
2. Overseer Harass using overlords from the drop
a.) Morph overlord (you can do it)
b.) Move into base (you can do it)
c.) Click on building (you can do it)
3. Moving around with invisible Infesters and throwing IT on the mineral line against a guy without detection
a.) never mind....
In conclusion. For all Zerg out there wishing for a 1a2a3a experience, maybe you could dust of SC:BW for some BGH action. For all the other Zerg, whishing to improve their gameplay and creative options, watch an learn. There are so many examples of great ZvT play out there in the pro-scene and there are tons we can learn from watching, especially when it comes to decision making and using all the options.
gg
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i think the worst bit is that zerg don't see what terran do on some maps to protect from a 6 pool or what not.
For example one zerg player 6 pooled me, so i had to bring 3-4 scvs off the line to repair and also had to spend 200 minerals of my cash which resulted in no orbital and no refinery for awhile to set up my wall.
Sure, Zerg sacrifices his economy but for the terran to deal with it, they sacrifice alot as well.
If Dimaga got his overseer out earlier to use changeling and corrupt which are Excellent grief mechanics, he could of seen those banshees and got detectors.
Maybe an early overseer or make overseer cheaper might make zerg want to build that kind of scouting unit.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 13 2010 17:22 oldahe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 07:15 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On August 13 2010 06:24 oldahe wrote:Dear Friends, I understand how it is easier to complain about alleged imba, rather the trying to just play better. Sure, the game is in an early stage, sure some stuff needs to be sorted out. Here i give you TLO´s most recent Zerg vs Terran ownage. Its a great example on how Zerg has a ton of options to deal with terran. http://tv.esl.eu/de/vod/22313gg can i ask you a question? why bother posting if you have no clue?! read the thread carefully and realize that a terran who goes nearly all bio is not a problem in the slightest. this match says NOTHING about balance...its the arguably best german player against a guy from blizzard...wtf. in the game he loses the thor in a stupid fashion and does zero damage against the zerg because hes afraid of zerglings who are running into a wallin... and the only things tlo does are infestor harass(which he is kinda known for in zvt) and a drop on a terran who is already dead because hes one base against three. next quote (different rage, same underlying failure to understand) Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 07:02 st3roids wrote:On August 13 2010 06:24 oldahe wrote:Dear Friends, I understand how it is easier to complain about alleged imba, rather the trying to just play better. Sure, the game is in an early stage, sure some stuff needs to be sorted out. Here i give you TLO´s most recent Zerg vs Terran ownage. Its a great example on how Zerg has a ton of options to deal with terran. http://tv.esl.eu/de/vod/22313gg hi troll pls teach us tlo plays 90% terran , next cool swap from zerg ? Oo , this is rly ... whatever no point arguing Lets go through the things TLO did and decide step by step if its really exclusively in the pro-gamers domain to do them, or if you, my dear sad and angry zerg players, can do the same. And btw: TLO is first and foremost terra and not zerg, Krisztof is an acclompished pro-gamer performing among the best in the European ladder, and not just another guy from blizzard. 1. Dropping using overlords. a.) Filling up the overlords (you can do it) b.) Flying to the enemies base (you can do it) c.) Dropping stuff (you can do it) d.) 1a2a3a (you can do it) 2. Overseer Harass using overlords from the drop a.) Morph overlord (you can do it) b.) Move into base (you can do it) c.) Click on building (you can do it) 3. Moving around with invisible Infesters and throwing IT on the mineral line against a guy without detection a.) never mind.... In conclusion. For all Zerg out there wishing for a 1a2a3a experience, maybe you could dust of SC:BW for some BGH action. For all the other Zerg, whishing to improve their gameplay and creative options, watch an learn. There are so many examples of great ZvT play out there in the pro-scene and there are tons we can learn from watching, especially when it comes to decision making and using all the options. gg
Gratz I can see your e-peen.
I don't have a problem with ZvT balance atm, it's fairly "balanced," and to say the least of it it's "restricting" for the Zerg player.
Now I do think crying Terran is imba is kind of old yeah, but stating the obvious and connecting the dots doesn't contribute TOO much to the discussion of ZvT balance.
On topic, I feel Zerg is who really need the change.
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The Terran balance issue is also apparent in the TvP match up too, and pretty much for the same reasons.
Siege tanks are simply too strong against ALL ground units in the game. For zerg, if you mass Ultralisks (the "Siege tank" of the Zerg since it has splash), then your opponent's ground will get owned, but you can drop Ultralisks fairly comfortably with focus fire since they're on the front lines. For Protoss, you have Collosi, but Collosi die very quickly, and come out very late (just like Ultralisks).
Now, compare them to Siege tanks. Siege tanks come out A LOT earlier, have an enormous range, by far the most cost efficient unit in the game due to the fact it's a counter to ALL ground units, rather than some. You can watch replays where a Terran player has 3 or more Siege tanks and they just pull apart a ground army that is considerably larger than the Terran. In team games, this issue is enhanced by the higher availability of siege tanks which essentially makes having a Terran teammate a MUST.
Personally, I believe Siege tanks to be tested with the following nerfs: Lower damage, Slower firing rate, larger minimum range (meaning that the range where they can't shoot in siege mode is larger so they become a long range only unit), no smart AI. I don't mean throw all 4 nerfs in at the sametime, I mean try it first with no smart AI, if its still imba then move on to lower damage etc etc.
Secondly, Marauders. Marauders are ridiculous in the TvP match up, but not so much in the TvZ match up. The issue is Concussive shells or Stim pack, one of them have to go. You see, a 50/50 upgrade makes them untouchable by the only unit that can counter them in T1, which are zealots. So if you nerf Concussive shells off them, they will be fine. On the other hand, if you nerf Stimpack off them, then they don't just pull apart all your units before you can even reach them to begin with.
The problem with Marauders is that they beat every Protoss unit 1v1 in T1 after a 50/50 upgrade, now before people say "who cares if they beat every unit 1v1 when you can have a mixture!!", please think before you post because its clear why it is an issue. Early Marauder pushes are hell to deal with since you have to rely on their incompetence to trap them with Sentry forcefields, or hope your zealots don't get kited.
Other than that, I believe Terran are fine.
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@Consummate: Are you sure about that? I just did ten zealots against ten marauders, which cost 250 gas more, in the Unit tester, and came out five zealots ahead.
EDIT: I'm assuming you're referring to Husky's video. That number of any ranged unit, be it the roach or the marauder or the marine or the ghost is going to win due to the nature of surrounds. It's entirely unrealistic.
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Sure about what?
These are the facts:
Zealots beat Marauders when there is no concussive shell
Marauders beat Zealots without being touched if there is concussive shell
Zealots are supposed to counter Marauders
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I dunno if someone's linked it already, but DJWheat and Chill had some interesting things to say about balance, and that can be found here.
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On August 13 2010 20:30 Consummate wrote:
Sure about what?
These are the facts:
Zealots beat Marauders when there is no concussive shell
Marauders beat Zealots without being touched if there is concussive shell
Zealots are supposed to counter Marauders
My test was with concussive shell. The only thing that I can imagine you're talking about is kiting, which is easily negated by force fielding behind your opponent. Thus, you get the classic unit composition of zealot sentry. For some reason, sentries don't work in the unit tester, otherwise, I'd give you some numbers with them.
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You need quite a few sentries to forcefield everything so they can't run, and because all Terran units are ranged, you're likely going to screw yourself up with forcefields if you plan on splitting their army with them, which means you can only forcefield behind them to ensure they can't run anywhere.
And we are talking about Zealots vs Marauders, not Zealots and Sentries vs Marauders.
You have the audacity to point out that 10 Marauders cost 250 more gas than 10 Zealots, when you were using Sentries in your test.............
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On August 13 2010 20:59 Consummate wrote:
You need quite a few sentries to forcefield everything so they can't run, and because all Terran units are ranged, you're likely going to screw yourself up with forcefields if you plan on splitting their army with them, which means you can only forcefield behind them to ensure they can't run anywhere.
At the point where large engagements happen, you'll likely have colossi, or at least immortals. And sentries are your gas dump, if you're focusing on gateway centric builds until you get templar. So either tech to anything, or use zealot sentry. That's the traditional way. You could also pull a NonY and make phoenixes. >.>
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I was never talking about large engagements...
And why do you always have to alter the situation in your favour? So in a large engagement, I am gonna have all these T3 units and shit, while you only still have Marauders? Not a bias view in the slightest.
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On August 13 2010 21:07 Consummate wrote:
I was never talking about large engagements...
And why do you always have to alter the situation in your favour? So in a large engagement, I am gonna have all these T3 units and shit, while you only still have Marauders? Not a bias view in the slightest.
You aren't defining a larger engagement. So, ten on ten, with concussive shells, zeaots beat marauders and are even cost effective without micro. But 20 on 20? 30 on 30? With micro? At those points you'll certainly need some sentries.
Anyhow, this is the TvZ balance thread. . .
EDIT: Fixed a typo/clarified things.
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What? Zealots lose to Marauders 10v10 with Concussive shells, Marauders don't get touched.
You see, you've underlined the main problem in the TvP match-up inadvertently. Protoss require T3 units (High Templar/Collosi) to beat T1 units of Terran, or areas where the terrain is favourable so forcefield is really effective. What do Terran require to beat Protoss? Attack move.
It doesn't matter if its a TvZ, the same issues in TvZ are in the TvP. The fact is, Terran is clearly overpowered.
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On August 13 2010 21:15 Consummate wrote:
What? Zealots lose to Marauders 10v10 with Concussive shells, Marauders don't get touched.
You see, you've underlined the main problem in the TvP match-up inadvertently. Protoss require T3 units (High Templar/Collosi) to beat T1 units of Terran, or areas where the terrain is favourable so forcefield is really effective. What do Terran require to beat Protoss? Attack move.
It doesn't matter if its a TvZ, the same issues in TvZ are in the TvP. The fact is, Terran is clearly overpowered.
I literally tested it two seconds ago in the unit tester. Not only do the zealots win, they win handily. With micro, sure you'll need sentries. But it takes micro/focus away from other things. Zealot sentry handily defeats mass marauder, I've seen it in countless pro games. And marauders are literally a non issue in TvZ as stated numerous times in this thread.
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why do I have a feeling you're doing something like 10 marauders vs 10 zealots + 4 sentries (when it should be 14 marauders cost wise), and you aren't even microing marauders, just letting them sit there at the forcefields despite being able to pop stim pack and run around the zealots and continue to kite them.
Oh yeah, you tested it by yourself in the unit tester, so I wonder why that happened. Unmicro'd Marauders lose to micro'd sentries and zealots - who would have thought?
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On August 13 2010 21:23 Consummate wrote:
why do I have a feeling you're doing something like 10 marauders vs 10 zealots + 4 sentries (when it should be 14 marauders cost wise), and you aren't even microing marauders, just letting them sit there at the forcefields despite being able to pop stim pack and run around the zealots and continue to kite them.
Oh yeah, you tested it by yourself in the unit tester, so I wonder why that happened. Unmicro'd Marauders lose to micro'd sentries and zealots - who would have thought?
Pure zealot, actually. I would add in sentries if the unit tester allowed it, but, effectively, not kiting is equatable to what the sentries can provide. This is with stim, though this doesn't modulate the results.
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EPT
