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On August 13 2010 22:16 Consummate wrote:
Watch him bring up that everyone has to scout where the Terran army is (so you don't run into siege tanks) but Terran don't have to scout where the enemy army is (so their Siege tanks don't get caught without Siege mode)
loving the double standards mate. I love the whole "you gotta scout" thing that doesn't apply to your own team.
You gotta what? TL meme incoming -_- 
On August 13 2010 21:44 Deckkie wrote:
But when zealots have charge they beat marauders with shell ten out of ten times.
Yah if you're playing with one hand and one of you eyes just so happened to fall out of your socket while microing your marauder army. I feel bad for Protoss players who have to go against the bio ball.
The Idra approach is a proven tactic that works 9 out of 10 times.
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literally not true, the maps are so small that you are almost immediately forced to engage tanks or lose the game
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On August 13 2010 22:22 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 22:16 Consummate wrote:
Watch him bring up that everyone has to scout where the Terran army is (so you don't run into siege tanks) but Terran don't have to scout where the enemy army is (so their Siege tanks don't get caught without Siege mode)
loving the double standards mate. I love the whole "you gotta scout" thing that doesn't apply to your own team. Have you seen a pro player play mech? There are constant scans just about everywhere on the map, as well as vikings, and hellions and the occasional floating building. Scouting is something Terran has to do with mech. Bio mech is more about pushing so scouting comes from that push, and I dunno about whatever else you were talking about.
Thanks for owning the person that was agreeing with you.....
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although as far as I'm concerned it's about the PvT matchupt I'd like to go into two of the aforementioned suggestions:
1. concussive shells: the research cost/time is a joke, there is no reason why a T should "not" get it; as opposed to e.g. warpgate which is a very essential protoss mechanism, I don't see why terrans shouldn't have to "think" about getting concussive shells for one second; simply put, I think the buff of patch 9 went overboard; if we compare it to charge: charge costs 4 times (!) as much and has a cooldown; the already mentioned problem is that there is no timeframe where an attacked unit could get away; it reminds me of orc vs human in wc3 where auto-cast slow from human could essentially cripple the orc at the early stages of the game if the orc is forced to retreat (now orc is admittedly OP); I'd think of reducing the duration from 1.5 sec to 1; in this case the terran can STILL rape his opponent WHEN STIMPACKED; this requires more skill and could help X vs T on let's say platinum level
2. medivac drop; I commented on this on another forum at a quite early stage of the beta and was flamed to death because terran was underpowered so I didn't dare to post it here; in my opinion if there is one MAJOR flaw in the whole game right now, then it's the ability of a really valuable flying supporting unit being able to load and drop stuff without ANY sort of lab OR upgrade! protoss require the atm underused warp prism, zerg requires the expensive entral sacs; medivacs however can be produced without techlab and can instantly heal and transport; there is effectively no reason whatsoever NOT to get medivacs since their healing ability is amazing; at the same time this provides the terran with the opportunity to make drops;
as far as my understanding of starcraft: BW or any strategy game at all goes, there is "always" some sort of "punishment" if you decide to prepare for a drop-strategy; in BW shuttles were fine and dropships were fine; if you get one and don't use it for it's mere purpose - to drop stuff - properly, then you've wasted ressources; the same holds now true for the warp prism; if you don't get drops/warp ins done, they are utterly useless; medivacs are different; you can get them at any point in the game for support, which also means that there is no way you are able to scout for a drop; a drop can happen to you basicly at any point, you will never know; on the other hand, if you spot a warp prism, then you know exactly what's going on
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On August 13 2010 22:16 Consummate wrote:
Watch him bring up that everyone has to scout where the Terran army is (so you don't run into siege tanks) but Terran don't have to scout where the enemy army is (so their Siege tanks don't get caught without Siege mode)
loving the double standards mate. I love the whole "you gotta scout" thing that doesn't apply to your own team.
dude you're seriously showing your nub here. If i want to unsiege my tanks while I'm defending my natural, much less in the middle of the map, I have to scout to make sure your army isnt just out of sight waiting with an observer over my army. Which is where a good protoss player's army will be. Ready and waiting for an opportunity to abuse mech's immobility. I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning.
meanwhile protoss has majority map control and has freedom to expand at will due to highly mobile army that will decimate an improperly positioned terran army.
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On August 13 2010 22:29 trevf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 22:16 Consummate wrote:
Watch him bring up that everyone has to scout where the Terran army is (so you don't run into siege tanks) but Terran don't have to scout where the enemy army is (so their Siege tanks don't get caught without Siege mode)
loving the double standards mate. I love the whole "you gotta scout" thing that doesn't apply to your own team. dude you're seriously showing your nub here. If i want to unsiege my tanks while I'm defending my natural, much less in the middle of the map, I have to scout to make sure your army isnt just out of sight waiting with an observer over my army. Which is where a good protoss player's army will be. Ready and waiting for an opportunity to abuse mech's immobility. I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning. meanwhile protoss has majority map control and has freedom to expand at will due to highly mobile army that will decimate an improperly positioned terran army.
And he did it...
He just said that because he can't scout properly. people take advantage of his siege tanks getting caught without siege mode.
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On August 13 2010 22:29 sleepingdog wrote:
2. medivac drop; I commented on this on another forum at a quite early stage of the beta and was flamed to death because terran was underpowered so I didn't dare to post it here; in my opinion if there is one MAJOR flaw in the whole game right now, then it's the ability of a really valuable flying supporting unit being able to load and drop stuff without ANY sort of lab OR upgrade! protoss require the atm underused warp prism, zerg requires the expensive entral sacs; medivacs however can be produced without techlab and can instantly heal and transport; there is effectively no reason whatsoever NOT to get medivacs since their healing ability is amazing; at the same time this provides the terran with the opportunity to make drops;
as far as my understanding of starcraft: BW or any strategy game at all goes, there is "always" some sort of "punishment" if you decide to prepare for a drop-strategy; in BW shuttles were fine and dropships were fine; if you get one and don't use it for it's mere purpose - to drop stuff - properly, then you've wasted ressources; the same holds now true for the warp prism; if you don't get drops/warp ins done, they are utterly useless; medivacs are different; you can get them at any point in the game for support, which also means that there is no way you are able to scout for a drop; a drop can happen to you basicly at any point, you will never know; on the other hand, if you spot a warp prism, then you know exactly what's going on
Not a flame, but medivacs cost 100 gas and are more effective the more you have. so 1 medivac is not that effective, but 5 are and are much more threatening in terms of drops and enabling mobility, but if you have spent 500 gas on medivacs thats 4 siege tanks worth of gas. its 2.5 thors worth of gas. its 4 level 1 upgrades worth of gas.
so it becomes a decision between do I want to turtle with a few siege tanks and take the risk of a big drop while losing map control due to an inferior ground army? or do I want to go full out mech and get vikings / ravens with my tanks and rines to have a strong, but immobile, ground force that doesn't have the ability to threaten drops.
Also, you list the upside of the medivac without listing the upside of the other two dropship units.
warp prisms allow for instant reinforcements via warpgate.
ventral sacs costs 200/200 but once that and speed are researched you now have 15 drop ships that give supply rather than take supply.
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BTW, someone brought up Chargelots beat Marauders 10 times out of 10.
Correct.
But, lets see how stupid you are for a second.
Concussive shell is T1 and costs 50/50
Charge is T2 and costs 200/200
Good point.
I need to spend an additional 150/150 to beat a unit that it should already beat in the first place.
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On August 13 2010 22:37 Consummate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 22:29 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:16 Consummate wrote:
Watch him bring up that everyone has to scout where the Terran army is (so you don't run into siege tanks) but Terran don't have to scout where the enemy army is (so their Siege tanks don't get caught without Siege mode)
loving the double standards mate. I love the whole "you gotta scout" thing that doesn't apply to your own team. dude you're seriously showing your nub here. If i want to unsiege my tanks while I'm defending my natural, much less in the middle of the map, I have to scout to make sure your army isnt just out of sight waiting with an observer over my army. Which is where a good protoss player's army will be. Ready and waiting for an opportunity to abuse mech's immobility. I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning. meanwhile protoss has majority map control and has freedom to expand at will due to highly mobile army that will decimate an improperly positioned terran army. And he did it... He just said that because he can't scout properly. people take advantage of his siege tanks getting caught without siege mode.
First of all I didn't say that I can't scout properly. I understand why you would put words in my mouth though. As your argument begins to show its weaknesses you attempt to throw up a strawman to distract from the fact that you really don't know what you're talking about. I've seen it many times before and its often effective. It is my hope that the TL community, in general, holds itself to higher standards than you do. It is my hope that people with illogical rants, such as yours, are banned sooner rather than later, as you really just detract from the community.
Just to be clear:
Its not that I can't scout properly, its that I have moved my tanks without scanning our scouting before and I was punished for it. I was illustrating, for you, the weakness of a mech army. In hopes that you would say, 'Oh, thats not a bad idea, I'll give that a try'. Rather than distort what I have said in order to propagate your useless and baseless opinion.
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On August 13 2010 22:52 Consummate wrote:
BTW, someone brought up Chargelots beat Marauders 10 times out of 10.
Correct.
But, lets see how stupid you are for a second.
Concussive shell is T1 and costs 50/50
Charge is T2 and costs 200/200
Good point.
I need to spend an additional 150/150 to beat a unit that it should already beat in the first place. Micro is time that he isn't macroing. So it doesn't matter if his marauders stay alive, as long as you have fifty stalkers or whatever coming for him. And that's assuming he microes, which isn't always the case. The potential to do something is very different than a balance issue.
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I just found out the universal Terran player thought process behind balance:
If a unit is countered by another unit, no matter how late in comparison it is available - it is balanced.
Now I just need to convince Blizzard that Protoss should have Collosi available at Tier 1 and Zerg get Ultralisks at Tier 1.
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On August 13 2010 22:55 trevf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 22:37 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 22:29 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:16 Consummate wrote:
Watch him bring up that everyone has to scout where the Terran army is (so you don't run into siege tanks) but Terran don't have to scout where the enemy army is (so their Siege tanks don't get caught without Siege mode)
loving the double standards mate. I love the whole "you gotta scout" thing that doesn't apply to your own team. dude you're seriously showing your nub here. If i want to unsiege my tanks while I'm defending my natural, much less in the middle of the map, I have to scout to make sure your army isnt just out of sight waiting with an observer over my army. Which is where a good protoss player's army will be. Ready and waiting for an opportunity to abuse mech's immobility. I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning. meanwhile protoss has majority map control and has freedom to expand at will due to highly mobile army that will decimate an improperly positioned terran army. And he did it... He just said that because he can't scout properly. people take advantage of his siege tanks getting caught without siege mode. First of all I didn't say that I can't scout properly. I understand why you would put words in my mouth though. As your argument begins to show its weaknesses you attempt to throw up a strawman to distract from the fact that you really don't know what you're talking about. I've seen it many times before and its often effective. It is my hope that the TL community, in general, holds itself to higher standards than you do. It is my hope that people with illogical rants, such as yours, are banned sooner rather than later, as you really just detract from the community. Just to be clear: Its not that I can't scout properly, its that I have moved my tanks without scanning our scouting before and I was punished for it. I was illustrating, for you, the weakness of a mech army. In hopes that you would say, 'Oh, thats not a bad idea, I'll give that a try'. Rather than distort what I have said in order to propagate your useless and baseless opinion.
Oh lord....
You said, and I quote "I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning."
The question is, why do Zerg have to sacrifice Zerglings/overlords etc (like everyone has been saying) yet Terran are only capable of scanning? Is that bias I see? Can't you sacrifice a Marine to see where that "Good protoss player" will be instead of relying on scan?
Secondly, you're stating that Protoss has an observer. Observer comes from Robo, what if I go stargate? Are you insinuating that I should be *forced* into getting a Robo? The tier tree for Protoss isn't the same as Terran.
Thirdly, you have the audacity to claim my arguments are straw and illogical rants? Haha? You have insinuated "Terran don't have to scout/only have 1 means of scouting", and you have also thrown personal anecdotes as your arguments, which I believe aren't at top level. Whereas I use maths and top level play as mine (as in, what I have observed from top players). You have also stated that players should run past the MM blob and attack the siege tanks, do you have any idea how stupid that is?
You should just give up, you make no sense whatsoever and lack any rational thought. My child, the person with illogical and straw arguments is you.
The underlying disgusting part about your overall arguments is the "oh, all you need to do is X and its GG for Terran, which makes it balanced" (read your other post about how much you suck at scouting for proof), then you make stupid assertions like "Terran have to do X,Y,Z which is sooooooooo hard to pull off in order to survive", proof? Read your other post where you say that you just abuse the immobility of sieging and unsieging to catch them off guard.
Do you actually realise how stupid you are?
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On August 13 2010 23:08 Consummate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 22:55 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:37 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 22:29 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:16 Consummate wrote:
Watch him bring up that everyone has to scout where the Terran army is (so you don't run into siege tanks) but Terran don't have to scout where the enemy army is (so their Siege tanks don't get caught without Siege mode)
loving the double standards mate. I love the whole "you gotta scout" thing that doesn't apply to your own team. dude you're seriously showing your nub here. If i want to unsiege my tanks while I'm defending my natural, much less in the middle of the map, I have to scout to make sure your army isnt just out of sight waiting with an observer over my army. Which is where a good protoss player's army will be. Ready and waiting for an opportunity to abuse mech's immobility. I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning. meanwhile protoss has majority map control and has freedom to expand at will due to highly mobile army that will decimate an improperly positioned terran army. And he did it... He just said that because he can't scout properly. people take advantage of his siege tanks getting caught without siege mode. First of all I didn't say that I can't scout properly. I understand why you would put words in my mouth though. As your argument begins to show its weaknesses you attempt to throw up a strawman to distract from the fact that you really don't know what you're talking about. I've seen it many times before and its often effective. It is my hope that the TL community, in general, holds itself to higher standards than you do. It is my hope that people with illogical rants, such as yours, are banned sooner rather than later, as you really just detract from the community. Just to be clear: Its not that I can't scout properly, its that I have moved my tanks without scanning our scouting before and I was punished for it. I was illustrating, for you, the weakness of a mech army. In hopes that you would say, 'Oh, thats not a bad idea, I'll give that a try'. Rather than distort what I have said in order to propagate your useless and baseless opinion. Oh lord.... You said, and I quote "I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning." The question is, why do Zerg have to sacrifice Zerglings/overlords etc (like everyone has been saying) yet Terran are only capable of scanning? Is that bias I see? Can't you sacrifice a Marine to see where that "Good protoss player" will be instead of relying on scan? Secondly, you're stating that Protoss has an observer. Observer comes from Robo, what if I go stargate? Are you insinuating that I should be *forced* into getting a Robo? The tier tree for Protoss isn't the same as Terran. Thirdly, you have the audacity to claim my arguments are straw and illogical rants? Haha? You have insinuated "Terran don't have to scout/only have 1 means of scouting", and you have also thrown personal anecdotes as your arguments, which I believe aren't at top level. Whereas I use maths and top level play as mine (as in, what I have observed from top players). You have also stated that players should run past the MM blob and attack the siege tanks, do you have any idea how stupid that is? You should just give up, you make no sense whatsoever and lack any rational thought. My child, the person with illogical and straw arguments is you. You should be forced into robo. You need an observer and the actual typical transition is to go from colossi into templar at the top level. Until observers are gateway units, you need a robo.
I'm going to leave the rest of your illogical rant to trevf.
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so it becomes a decision between do I want to turtle with a few siege tanks and take the risk of a big drop while losing map control due to an inferior ground army? or do I want to go full out mech and get vikings / ravens with my tanks and rines to have a strong, but immobile, ground force that doesn't have the ability to threaten drops.
Also, you list the upside of the medivac without listing the upside of the other two dropship units.
warp prisms allow for instant reinforcements via warpgate.
ventral sacs costs 200/200 but once that and speed are researched you now have 15 drop ships that give supply rather than take supply.
I have hardly ever had problems beating terrans that go mech-heavy; I don't go colossi but go mainly with zealots/stalkers/sentries/hightemplars after opening with a 2 gate robo or 1 gate robo where I get 1-2 immortals very early that will deal with any attemt of my opponent getting tanks ready; MMM with ghost-EMP gives me a much harder time - and this build includes constantly (re-)building medivacs to support the bioball; this was actually my point: MMM+EMP is a very strong unit composition AND allows constantly for drops; my point isn't that MMM+EMP is overpowered (has been discussed often enough) but that I have no chance whatsoever to see whether my opponent plans a drop or not; if I see a medivac lonely flying around it could very well be just a new medivac ralleying to the army which means that I can't afford staying in my base securing my mineral line(s) every time I see lonely medivacs; if you - on the other hand - see my warp prism, you can be 100% certain that there WILL be either a drop or a warp-in anywhere; this is my point: not that terran drops are in general OP, but they don't require any transitioning: no extra tech, no extra unit, no extra building no...nothing; just imagine how ridiculously OP it were, if sentrys could fly and transport units; sentrys are perfectly fine now, low damage, great spells that require micro; the additional ability to transport would totally screw it up, you would never be able to know, if I was getting them to support or to prepare a drop;
speaking more generally, neither do I think that terrans "rely" on this; medivac-drops have seldom been abused simply because most terrans are doing fine without it; so why bother? they have the free invisible-harass with banshees anyways, they just have to lift barracks + starport and switch places; I don't see any reason at all why there has to be another Sword of Damocles dangling over my head the whole time
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MythicalMage, its apparent you cannot read between the lines whatsoever.
When I say "forced into robo", I mean robo straight after Warp gate. Which you have just contended you "have to do". Yes, it is inconceivable people might go for Dark Templar/High Templar or Stargate tech instead of Robo straight after Warp gates - even at high level, or have you even watched High level play to see that you just owned yourself because that is incredibly wrong?
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On August 13 2010 23:17 Consummate wrote:
MythicalMage, its apparent you cannot read between the lines whatsoever.
When I say "forced into robo", I mean robo straight after Warp gate. Which you have just contended you "have to do". Yes, it is inconceivable people might go for Dark Templar/High Templar or Stargate tech instead of Robo straight after Warp gates - even at high level, or have you even watched High level play to see that you just owned yourself because that is incredibly wrong?
You should be forced into it at some point. That is to say, every build should get a robotics facility relatively quickly. There are no set timings, but that's just the most standard play right now. Whether or not forcing a tech tree is balanced is another matter. It is viable against zerg, for example, to open something else, and is theoretically possible versus Terran, but it's risky. And I've watched more high level play than you can imagine. I'm watching some high level play right now.
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Yes, exactly as you said, *at some point* Protoss should get robo.
Your buddy over there said you should scout the siege tanks and catch them off guard, so unless I can get a couple of void rays and go back to robo (or some DT's/HT's) before you can push so I can get my observer out to actually do that - That means you just owned yourself, and him.
I love making people inadvertently own themselves with their poor arguing abilities.
GG NO RE, siege tanks are overpowered as proven by their own supporters.
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Hilarious. Now the bad P have joined with the bad Z in their mythical Terran godly domination.
Here's a hint. P > T.
Just go look at any mid-high Diamond or above players.
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On August 13 2010 23:25 oxxo wrote:
Hilarious. Now the bad P have joined with the bad Z in their mythical Terran godly domination.
Here's a hint. P > T.
Just go look at any mid-high Diamond or above players.
Hilarious, now uninformed Terran players have joined in on the mythical balanced Terran race discussion.
Tell me this "oxxo" who clearly has an idea on what is going on - Why is it that random Terran players can beat well known Zerg and Protoss yet the same thing doesn't happen nearly as often vice versa?
This should be interesting.
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On August 13 2010 23:24 Consummate wrote:
Yes, exactly as you said, *at some point* Protoss should get robo.
Your buddy over there said you should scout the siege tanks and catch them off guard, so unless I can get a couple of void rays and go back to robo (or some DT's/HT's) before you can push so I can get my observer out to actually do that - That means you just owned yourself, and him.
I love making people inadvertently own themselves with their poor arguing abilities.
GG NO RE, siege tanks are overpowered as proven by their own supporters.
I am not him and he is not me and I have no idea what the hell you just said. It had something to do with scouting with an observer. Well, thing is, pheonixes, void rays, zealots, and DTs can all scout too. You can hallucinate a phoenix or whatever else you want. You can pull an orb and do a colossus scout. The observer isn't for scouting so much as detection anyway. Observers are nice, but not dying to banshees is nicer.
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EPT
