|
On August 13 2010 23:29 Consummate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 23:25 oxxo wrote:
Hilarious. Now the bad P have joined with the bad Z in their mythical Terran godly domination.
Here's a hint. P > T.
Just go look at any mid-high Diamond or above players. Hilarious, now uninformed Terran players have joined in on the mythical balanced Terran race discussion. Tell me this "oxxo" who clearly has an idea on what is going on - Why is it that random Terran players can beat well known Zerg and Protoss yet the same thing doesn't happen nearly as often vice versa? This should be interesting.
Where's some proof of this happening? Silver vs IdrA? Silver was a very good player in a number of games and has shown immense skill in his play in a ton of games.
|
On August 13 2010 23:08 Consummate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 22:55 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:37 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 22:29 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:16 Consummate wrote:
Watch him bring up that everyone has to scout where the Terran army is (so you don't run into siege tanks) but Terran don't have to scout where the enemy army is (so their Siege tanks don't get caught without Siege mode)
loving the double standards mate. I love the whole "you gotta scout" thing that doesn't apply to your own team. dude you're seriously showing your nub here. If i want to unsiege my tanks while I'm defending my natural, much less in the middle of the map, I have to scout to make sure your army isnt just out of sight waiting with an observer over my army. Which is where a good protoss player's army will be. Ready and waiting for an opportunity to abuse mech's immobility. I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning. meanwhile protoss has majority map control and has freedom to expand at will due to highly mobile army that will decimate an improperly positioned terran army. And he did it... He just said that because he can't scout properly. people take advantage of his siege tanks getting caught without siege mode. First of all I didn't say that I can't scout properly. I understand why you would put words in my mouth though. As your argument begins to show its weaknesses you attempt to throw up a strawman to distract from the fact that you really don't know what you're talking about. I've seen it many times before and its often effective. It is my hope that the TL community, in general, holds itself to higher standards than you do. It is my hope that people with illogical rants, such as yours, are banned sooner rather than later, as you really just detract from the community. Just to be clear: Its not that I can't scout properly, its that I have moved my tanks without scanning our scouting before and I was punished for it. I was illustrating, for you, the weakness of a mech army. In hopes that you would say, 'Oh, thats not a bad idea, I'll give that a try'. Rather than distort what I have said in order to propagate your useless and baseless opinion. Oh lord.... You said, and I quote "I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning." The question is, why do Zerg have to sacrifice Zerglings/overlords etc (like everyone has been saying) yet Terran are only capable of scanning? Is that bias I see? Can't you sacrifice a Marine to see where that "Good protoss player" will be instead of relying on scan? Secondly, you're stating that Protoss has an observer. Observer comes from Robo, what if I go stargate? Are you insinuating that I should be *forced* into getting a Robo? The tier tree for Protoss isn't the same as Terran. Thirdly, you have the audacity to claim my arguments are straw and illogical rants? Haha? You have insinuated "Terran don't have to scout/only have 1 means of scouting", and you have also thrown personal anecdotes as your arguments, which I believe aren't at top level. Whereas I use maths and top level play as mine (as in, what I have observed from top players). You have also stated that players should run past the MM blob and attack the siege tanks, do you have any idea how stupid that is? You should just give up, you make no sense whatsoever and lack any rational thought. My child, the person with illogical and straw arguments is you.
Yes, terran can sacrifice a marine to see where the player might be, its probably even a better move to build hellions and to poke forward quickly. Terran, like zerg and protoss, has options on how they can scout. To not scout as a terran is bad play. I'd say the same for any race.
I don't think protoss are forced into robo play to get a good scout. If you go stargate you would probably be getting a void ray or an early phoenix for harass. These both come out about the same time as the first or second viking for terran if terran goes 1/1/1. Void ray harass allows you to pin the terran player to his base and gives you the ability to expand to your natural on pace, if not earlier than terran can take theirs in this situation. Another option for protoss to scout is to research halucinate. It does have an expense associated with it, but if you're going 4 gate and feel the need to scout then it is there as an option. This is not a novel idea.
And do I have the audacity to claim your arguments are illogical? Yes, I do. I haven't insinuated the things you claim I have. You certainly have extrapolated these ideas, but just because I didnt go through the process of explaining the mechanics of the entire game doesn't mean you can say I insinuated things that would make me appear to be a fool.
Is my gameplay top level? I'm not about to go pro but I do have a w/l ratio greater than 1 in diamond. I don't see a problem citing my personal experiences with the PvT matchup. Although, you do use 'maths' as your argument, which is a powerful strategy. I will attempt to reconcile my position using 'maths'. Perhaps I can find some information on how to do so using the googler so that I can further refudiate your claims.
|
On August 13 2010 23:29 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 23:24 Consummate wrote:
Yes, exactly as you said, *at some point* Protoss should get robo.
Your buddy over there said you should scout the siege tanks and catch them off guard, so unless I can get a couple of void rays and go back to robo (or some DT's/HT's) before you can push so I can get my observer out to actually do that - That means you just owned yourself, and him.
I love making people inadvertently own themselves with their poor arguing abilities.
GG NO RE, siege tanks are overpowered as proven by their own supporters. I am not him and he is not me and I have no idea what the hell you just said. It had something to do with scouting with an observer. Well, thing is, pheonixes, void rays, zealots, and DTs can all scout too. You can hallucinate a phoenix or whatever else you want. You can pull an orb and do a colossus scout. The observer isn't for scouting so much as detection anyway. Observers are nice, but not dying to banshees is nicer.
Oh, so you just pick out my arguments against his where its convenient for you to pick up any misguided lapses in logic?
|
On August 13 2010 23:32 Consummate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 23:29 MythicalMage wrote:On August 13 2010 23:24 Consummate wrote:
Yes, exactly as you said, *at some point* Protoss should get robo.
Your buddy over there said you should scout the siege tanks and catch them off guard, so unless I can get a couple of void rays and go back to robo (or some DT's/HT's) before you can push so I can get my observer out to actually do that - That means you just owned yourself, and him.
I love making people inadvertently own themselves with their poor arguing abilities.
GG NO RE, siege tanks are overpowered as proven by their own supporters. I am not him and he is not me and I have no idea what the hell you just said. It had something to do with scouting with an observer. Well, thing is, pheonixes, void rays, zealots, and DTs can all scout too. You can hallucinate a phoenix or whatever else you want. You can pull an orb and do a colossus scout. The observer isn't for scouting so much as detection anyway. Observers are nice, but not dying to banshees is nicer. Oh, so you just pick out my arguments against his where its convenient for you to pick up any misguided lapses in logic?
. . .what? Lapses in logic? Please actually write coherently.
|
On August 13 2010 23:31 trevf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 23:08 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 22:55 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:37 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 22:29 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:16 Consummate wrote:
Watch him bring up that everyone has to scout where the Terran army is (so you don't run into siege tanks) but Terran don't have to scout where the enemy army is (so their Siege tanks don't get caught without Siege mode)
loving the double standards mate. I love the whole "you gotta scout" thing that doesn't apply to your own team. dude you're seriously showing your nub here. If i want to unsiege my tanks while I'm defending my natural, much less in the middle of the map, I have to scout to make sure your army isnt just out of sight waiting with an observer over my army. Which is where a good protoss player's army will be. Ready and waiting for an opportunity to abuse mech's immobility. I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning. meanwhile protoss has majority map control and has freedom to expand at will due to highly mobile army that will decimate an improperly positioned terran army. And he did it... He just said that because he can't scout properly. people take advantage of his siege tanks getting caught without siege mode. First of all I didn't say that I can't scout properly. I understand why you would put words in my mouth though. As your argument begins to show its weaknesses you attempt to throw up a strawman to distract from the fact that you really don't know what you're talking about. I've seen it many times before and its often effective. It is my hope that the TL community, in general, holds itself to higher standards than you do. It is my hope that people with illogical rants, such as yours, are banned sooner rather than later, as you really just detract from the community. Just to be clear: Its not that I can't scout properly, its that I have moved my tanks without scanning our scouting before and I was punished for it. I was illustrating, for you, the weakness of a mech army. In hopes that you would say, 'Oh, thats not a bad idea, I'll give that a try'. Rather than distort what I have said in order to propagate your useless and baseless opinion. Oh lord.... You said, and I quote "I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning." The question is, why do Zerg have to sacrifice Zerglings/overlords etc (like everyone has been saying) yet Terran are only capable of scanning? Is that bias I see? Can't you sacrifice a Marine to see where that "Good protoss player" will be instead of relying on scan? Secondly, you're stating that Protoss has an observer. Observer comes from Robo, what if I go stargate? Are you insinuating that I should be *forced* into getting a Robo? The tier tree for Protoss isn't the same as Terran. Thirdly, you have the audacity to claim my arguments are straw and illogical rants? Haha? You have insinuated "Terran don't have to scout/only have 1 means of scouting", and you have also thrown personal anecdotes as your arguments, which I believe aren't at top level. Whereas I use maths and top level play as mine (as in, what I have observed from top players). You have also stated that players should run past the MM blob and attack the siege tanks, do you have any idea how stupid that is? You should just give up, you make no sense whatsoever and lack any rational thought. My child, the person with illogical and straw arguments is you. Yes, terran can sacrifice a marine to see where the player might be, its probably even a better move to build hellions and to poke forward quickly. Terran, like zerg and protoss, has options on how they can scout. To not scout as a terran is bad play. I'd say the same for any race. I don't think protoss are forced into robo play to get a good scout. If you go stargate you would probably be getting a void ray or an early phoenix for harass. These both come out about the same time as the first or second viking for terran if terran goes 1/1/1. Void ray harass allows you to pin the terran player to his base and gives you the ability to expand to your natural on pace, if not earlier than terran can take theirs in this situation. Another option for protoss to scout is to research halucinate. It does have an expense associated with it, but if you're going 4 gate and feel the need to scout then it is there as an option. This is not a novel idea. And do I have the audacity to claim your arguments are illogical? Yes, I do. I haven't insinuated the things you claim I have. You certainly have extrapolated these ideas, but just because I didnt go through the process of explaining the mechanics of the entire game doesn't mean you can say I insinuated things that would make me appear to be a fool. Is my gameplay top level? I'm not about to go pro but I do have a w/l ratio greater than 1 in diamond. I don't see a problem citing my personal experiences with the PvT matchup. Although, you do use 'maths' as your argument, which is a powerful strategy. I will attempt to reconcile my position using 'maths'. Perhaps I can find some information on how to do so using the googler so that I can further refudiate your claims.
The basis behind your "Siege tanks are balanced" argument is that you need to take advantage of their immobility and attack while they're moving.
Now, realistically - how useful is any unit other than an observer at scouting if the terran is moving his tanks etc? Remember, this is something you will have to sit there watching, I would like to see how long a phoenix or void ray lasts just hovering about your blob and observing when they unsiege to actually initiate an attack on them. I have a feeling you don't even know your own arguments.
You haven't insinuated what I claim? Then you mustn't have even read what you're typing because you sure have.
Oh and, I am also in Diamond, with a better ratio than 1:1 too. I don't see the point you're attempting to make there.
|
On August 13 2010 23:36 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 23:32 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 23:29 MythicalMage wrote:On August 13 2010 23:24 Consummate wrote:
Yes, exactly as you said, *at some point* Protoss should get robo.
Your buddy over there said you should scout the siege tanks and catch them off guard, so unless I can get a couple of void rays and go back to robo (or some DT's/HT's) before you can push so I can get my observer out to actually do that - That means you just owned yourself, and him.
I love making people inadvertently own themselves with their poor arguing abilities.
GG NO RE, siege tanks are overpowered as proven by their own supporters. I am not him and he is not me and I have no idea what the hell you just said. It had something to do with scouting with an observer. Well, thing is, pheonixes, void rays, zealots, and DTs can all scout too. You can hallucinate a phoenix or whatever else you want. You can pull an orb and do a colossus scout. The observer isn't for scouting so much as detection anyway. Observers are nice, but not dying to banshees is nicer. Oh, so you just pick out my arguments against his where its convenient for you to pick up any misguided lapses in logic? . . .what? Lapses in logic? Please actually write coherently.
What's wrong with that? You do know the definition of "lapse" and "logic", right? Because if you did, there is nothing wrong with it.
Now, on the topic of writing "coherently", I am quite sure you don't know what the definition of the word is, as the use of it there is very poor as I have written "coherently". I can only assume that because you clearly don't know what "lapse" means.
lol
BTW, idra posted somewhere in this thread about what is happening in Korea in terms of Terran dominance. Check that out bro
|
I don't think protoss are forced into robo play to get a good scout. If you go stargate you would probably be getting a void ray or an early phoenix for harass. These both come out about the same time as the first or second viking for terran if terran goes 1/1/1. Void ray harass allows you to pin the terran player to his base and gives you the ability to expand to your natural on pace, if not earlier than terran can take theirs in this situation.
once I get home I will post a replay I've watched yesterday, where a protoss who went 2 gate stargate (or was it even 1 gate stargate? can't remember right now) got terribly owned by the terran who literally "switched" to banshees - lifting up two buildings and replacing them so the stargate gets the techlab isn't that time-consuming......needless to say, the robo wasn't ready on time, no observer means pretty much GG vs banshees; I'd love day9 get onto that because it is in fact what I would call a brutally hard "counter"; the protoss player can only win if he has chronoboosted the hell out of the stargate and manages to finish the terran off with his first attack; the only reason why many people don't switch to banshees in such situations fast enough is because they don't expect anything else than 1 gate, 2 gate or 3 gate robo-builds anymore and get sloppy with their scouting after they have detected the amount of gates of their opponents
EDIT: why did this thread turn from ZvT to PvT again?
|
On August 13 2010 23:41 Consummate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 23:36 MythicalMage wrote:On August 13 2010 23:32 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 23:29 MythicalMage wrote:On August 13 2010 23:24 Consummate wrote:
Yes, exactly as you said, *at some point* Protoss should get robo.
Your buddy over there said you should scout the siege tanks and catch them off guard, so unless I can get a couple of void rays and go back to robo (or some DT's/HT's) before you can push so I can get my observer out to actually do that - That means you just owned yourself, and him.
I love making people inadvertently own themselves with their poor arguing abilities.
GG NO RE, siege tanks are overpowered as proven by their own supporters. I am not him and he is not me and I have no idea what the hell you just said. It had something to do with scouting with an observer. Well, thing is, pheonixes, void rays, zealots, and DTs can all scout too. You can hallucinate a phoenix or whatever else you want. You can pull an orb and do a colossus scout. The observer isn't for scouting so much as detection anyway. Observers are nice, but not dying to banshees is nicer. Oh, so you just pick out my arguments against his where its convenient for you to pick up any misguided lapses in logic? . . .what? Lapses in logic? Please actually write coherently. What's wrong with that? You do know the definition of "lapse" and "logic", right? Because if you did, there is nothing wrong with it. Now, on the topic of writing "coherently", I am quite sure you don't know what the definition of the word is, as the use of it there is very poor as I have written "coherently". I can only assume that because you clearly don't know what "lapse" means. lol . . .
"Oh so you just pick out my arguments against his where its convenient for you to pick up any misguided lapses in logic."
That sentence, if you can call it that, makes no sense. And like half of your sentences are run ons. And you don't express your thoughts very clearly. The reason I said "Lapses in logic?", which you would know if you could read between the lines, is that I was wondering what the hell you meant by that. You say things like that that seem to mean nothing. And insulting us isn't helping your failing argument.
lol
Edit in response to your edit:
IdrA is a completely biased source. That's like me asking one of you what ZvT is like.
|
I really agree with the mule deal and the vikings aswell. Alot of the problems zerg has vs terran protoss has aswell. The biggest problems for protoss atm are:
The possibility of cloaked banshees force robo opening every single game.
Rushing for 2 templars with storm costs 800 gas and takes a very long time (esp for the temps to get 75 energy). Count sentries/stalkers/wg tech and you're over 1k gas. To counter this army terran can spend 600 gas (all upgrades + 2 ghosts). If terran spends that last 400 mins on medivacs then he will have a VASTLY superior army. Hence terran bio is too cheap for protoss to counter. And dont even try to argue colossus at this point.
Tanks are not weak to anything except air. Assuming you can get the shields off of immortals before they start hitting your tanks (laughably easy as immortals have really really bad range) tanks will blow immortals to hell. Tanks also melt every single gateway unit like nothing else. Colossus are good vs tanks that aren't spread apart if you have a huge army whose purpose is to tank for the colossus. However the cost of that protoss army greatly exceeds that of the terran army. The biggest concern with tanks is that you can't make them blow each other up and they huge hp pool makes them great to have at the front of your army vs toss. If tanks in sc1 could actually take the brunt of the damage from zealots and goons like they do in sc2 people would be raging mad.
Medivacs are a part of your natural army. You can decrease your midgame army by 1 medivac and a few marines to totally shut down protoss expanding and force them into getting cannons at every place (aprox 900 mins worth) AND templar energy upgrade. Once you have those upgrades as protoss you can start taking your forth expansion. But during this time terran has gotten a fully saturated 3rd and will be pushing you soon.
The BIGGEST problem I see for both races against terran is that they can get their entire tech tree and not get punished for it. Every building they have can make a useful unit in every situation. Getting 1-1-1 into raven and expanding because there is no way it can be stopped. Getting cloaked banshees and harassing with them while expanding and then using the starport for either medivacs or more banshees. If a protoss goes for DTs and terran defends it well. That tech is a huge waste of gas and can't be used well. The same thing goes for stargate builds. Once the voidrays are done harassing, you can't actually make more of them unless you took a great lead. Also its not like a zerg can tech to mutas and totally fail in forcing turrets or killing anything and just transition out of it. Protoss and zerg needs to spend alot of resources on tech. Terran gets it for free.
|
On August 13 2010 23:38 Consummate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 23:31 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 23:08 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 22:55 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:37 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 22:29 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:16 Consummate wrote:
Watch him bring up that everyone has to scout where the Terran army is (so you don't run into siege tanks) but Terran don't have to scout where the enemy army is (so their Siege tanks don't get caught without Siege mode)
loving the double standards mate. I love the whole "you gotta scout" thing that doesn't apply to your own team. dude you're seriously showing your nub here. If i want to unsiege my tanks while I'm defending my natural, much less in the middle of the map, I have to scout to make sure your army isnt just out of sight waiting with an observer over my army. Which is where a good protoss player's army will be. Ready and waiting for an opportunity to abuse mech's immobility. I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning. meanwhile protoss has majority map control and has freedom to expand at will due to highly mobile army that will decimate an improperly positioned terran army. And he did it... He just said that because he can't scout properly. people take advantage of his siege tanks getting caught without siege mode. First of all I didn't say that I can't scout properly. I understand why you would put words in my mouth though. As your argument begins to show its weaknesses you attempt to throw up a strawman to distract from the fact that you really don't know what you're talking about. I've seen it many times before and its often effective. It is my hope that the TL community, in general, holds itself to higher standards than you do. It is my hope that people with illogical rants, such as yours, are banned sooner rather than later, as you really just detract from the community. Just to be clear: Its not that I can't scout properly, its that I have moved my tanks without scanning our scouting before and I was punished for it. I was illustrating, for you, the weakness of a mech army. In hopes that you would say, 'Oh, thats not a bad idea, I'll give that a try'. Rather than distort what I have said in order to propagate your useless and baseless opinion. Oh lord.... You said, and I quote "I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning." The question is, why do Zerg have to sacrifice Zerglings/overlords etc (like everyone has been saying) yet Terran are only capable of scanning? Is that bias I see? Can't you sacrifice a Marine to see where that "Good protoss player" will be instead of relying on scan? Secondly, you're stating that Protoss has an observer. Observer comes from Robo, what if I go stargate? Are you insinuating that I should be *forced* into getting a Robo? The tier tree for Protoss isn't the same as Terran. Thirdly, you have the audacity to claim my arguments are straw and illogical rants? Haha? You have insinuated "Terran don't have to scout/only have 1 means of scouting", and you have also thrown personal anecdotes as your arguments, which I believe aren't at top level. Whereas I use maths and top level play as mine (as in, what I have observed from top players). You have also stated that players should run past the MM blob and attack the siege tanks, do you have any idea how stupid that is? You should just give up, you make no sense whatsoever and lack any rational thought. My child, the person with illogical and straw arguments is you. Yes, terran can sacrifice a marine to see where the player might be, its probably even a better move to build hellions and to poke forward quickly. Terran, like zerg and protoss, has options on how they can scout. To not scout as a terran is bad play. I'd say the same for any race. I don't think protoss are forced into robo play to get a good scout. If you go stargate you would probably be getting a void ray or an early phoenix for harass. These both come out about the same time as the first or second viking for terran if terran goes 1/1/1. Void ray harass allows you to pin the terran player to his base and gives you the ability to expand to your natural on pace, if not earlier than terran can take theirs in this situation. Another option for protoss to scout is to research halucinate. It does have an expense associated with it, but if you're going 4 gate and feel the need to scout then it is there as an option. This is not a novel idea. And do I have the audacity to claim your arguments are illogical? Yes, I do. I haven't insinuated the things you claim I have. You certainly have extrapolated these ideas, but just because I didnt go through the process of explaining the mechanics of the entire game doesn't mean you can say I insinuated things that would make me appear to be a fool. Is my gameplay top level? I'm not about to go pro but I do have a w/l ratio greater than 1 in diamond. I don't see a problem citing my personal experiences with the PvT matchup. Although, you do use 'maths' as your argument, which is a powerful strategy. I will attempt to reconcile my position using 'maths'. Perhaps I can find some information on how to do so using the googler so that I can further refudiate your claims. The basis behind your "Siege tanks are balanced" argument is that you need to take advantage of their immobility and attack while they're moving. Now, realistically - how useful is any unit other than an observer at scouting if the terran is moving his tanks etc? Remember, this is something you will have to sit there watching, I would like to see how long a phoenix or void ray lasts just hovering about your blob and observing when they unsiege to actually initiate an attack on them. I have a feeling you don't even know your own arguments. You haven't insinuated what I claim? Then you mustn't have even read what you're typing because you sure have. Oh and, I am also in Diamond, with a better ratio than 1:1 too. I don't see the point you're attempting to make there.
You learn where they are currently set up, and attack somewhere else. The terran player is then forced to move the tanks or lose whatever you are attacking. You don't sit there watching the terran build up forces and then eventually move, you take the game into your own hands and MAKE that terran player move.
|
On August 13 2010 23:38 Consummate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 23:31 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 23:08 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 22:55 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:37 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 22:29 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:16 Consummate wrote:
Watch him bring up that everyone has to scout where the Terran army is (so you don't run into siege tanks) but Terran don't have to scout where the enemy army is (so their Siege tanks don't get caught without Siege mode)
loving the double standards mate. I love the whole "you gotta scout" thing that doesn't apply to your own team. dude you're seriously showing your nub here. If i want to unsiege my tanks while I'm defending my natural, much less in the middle of the map, I have to scout to make sure your army isnt just out of sight waiting with an observer over my army. Which is where a good protoss player's army will be. Ready and waiting for an opportunity to abuse mech's immobility. I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning. meanwhile protoss has majority map control and has freedom to expand at will due to highly mobile army that will decimate an improperly positioned terran army. And he did it... He just said that because he can't scout properly. people take advantage of his siege tanks getting caught without siege mode. First of all I didn't say that I can't scout properly. I understand why you would put words in my mouth though. As your argument begins to show its weaknesses you attempt to throw up a strawman to distract from the fact that you really don't know what you're talking about. I've seen it many times before and its often effective. It is my hope that the TL community, in general, holds itself to higher standards than you do. It is my hope that people with illogical rants, such as yours, are banned sooner rather than later, as you really just detract from the community. Just to be clear: Its not that I can't scout properly, its that I have moved my tanks without scanning our scouting before and I was punished for it. I was illustrating, for you, the weakness of a mech army. In hopes that you would say, 'Oh, thats not a bad idea, I'll give that a try'. Rather than distort what I have said in order to propagate your useless and baseless opinion. Oh lord.... You said, and I quote "I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning." The question is, why do Zerg have to sacrifice Zerglings/overlords etc (like everyone has been saying) yet Terran are only capable of scanning? Is that bias I see? Can't you sacrifice a Marine to see where that "Good protoss player" will be instead of relying on scan? Secondly, you're stating that Protoss has an observer. Observer comes from Robo, what if I go stargate? Are you insinuating that I should be *forced* into getting a Robo? The tier tree for Protoss isn't the same as Terran. Thirdly, you have the audacity to claim my arguments are straw and illogical rants? Haha? You have insinuated "Terran don't have to scout/only have 1 means of scouting", and you have also thrown personal anecdotes as your arguments, which I believe aren't at top level. Whereas I use maths and top level play as mine (as in, what I have observed from top players). You have also stated that players should run past the MM blob and attack the siege tanks, do you have any idea how stupid that is? You should just give up, you make no sense whatsoever and lack any rational thought. My child, the person with illogical and straw arguments is you. Yes, terran can sacrifice a marine to see where the player might be, its probably even a better move to build hellions and to poke forward quickly. Terran, like zerg and protoss, has options on how they can scout. To not scout as a terran is bad play. I'd say the same for any race. I don't think protoss are forced into robo play to get a good scout. If you go stargate you would probably be getting a void ray or an early phoenix for harass. These both come out about the same time as the first or second viking for terran if terran goes 1/1/1. Void ray harass allows you to pin the terran player to his base and gives you the ability to expand to your natural on pace, if not earlier than terran can take theirs in this situation. Another option for protoss to scout is to research halucinate. It does have an expense associated with it, but if you're going 4 gate and feel the need to scout then it is there as an option. This is not a novel idea. And do I have the audacity to claim your arguments are illogical? Yes, I do. I haven't insinuated the things you claim I have. You certainly have extrapolated these ideas, but just because I didnt go through the process of explaining the mechanics of the entire game doesn't mean you can say I insinuated things that would make me appear to be a fool. Is my gameplay top level? I'm not about to go pro but I do have a w/l ratio greater than 1 in diamond. I don't see a problem citing my personal experiences with the PvT matchup. Although, you do use 'maths' as your argument, which is a powerful strategy. I will attempt to reconcile my position using 'maths'. Perhaps I can find some information on how to do so using the googler so that I can further refudiate your claims. The basis behind your "Siege tanks are balanced" argument is that you need to take advantage of their immobility and attack while they're moving. Now, realistically - how useful is any unit other than an observer at scouting if the terran is moving his tanks etc? Remember, this is something you will have to sit there watching, I would like to see how long a phoenix or void ray lasts just hovering about your blob and observing when they unsiege to actually initiate an attack on them. I have a feeling you don't even know your own arguments. You haven't insinuated what I claim? Then you mustn't have even read what you're typing because you sure have. Oh and, I am also in Diamond, with a better ratio than 1:1 too. I don't see the point you're attempting to make there.
I was highlighting the fact that there are units other than the observer capable of scouting. Yet if you open void rays and see mech play coming then you should be transitioning to robo play for immortals. If you don't you're making a bad decision. The void ray harass will pin the terran player in his base giving you tiem to expand and tech switch. This is dependent on good scouting, good micro, good timing, and good decision making, which is to be expected at high level play.
Protoss have many viable ways to gain an advantage over terran, but they all depend on playing well. The same can be said for terran over protoss.
|
@StarBrift: That's a bit of an exaggeration. Terran doesn't, for example, go 1/1/1 against zerg for a reason, and it hurts them against Protoss, generally. You can't easily 1/1/1 and expand in that matchup for exapmle.
|
On August 13 2010 23:45 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 23:41 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 23:36 MythicalMage wrote:On August 13 2010 23:32 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 23:29 MythicalMage wrote:On August 13 2010 23:24 Consummate wrote:
Yes, exactly as you said, *at some point* Protoss should get robo.
Your buddy over there said you should scout the siege tanks and catch them off guard, so unless I can get a couple of void rays and go back to robo (or some DT's/HT's) before you can push so I can get my observer out to actually do that - That means you just owned yourself, and him.
I love making people inadvertently own themselves with their poor arguing abilities.
GG NO RE, siege tanks are overpowered as proven by their own supporters. I am not him and he is not me and I have no idea what the hell you just said. It had something to do with scouting with an observer. Well, thing is, pheonixes, void rays, zealots, and DTs can all scout too. You can hallucinate a phoenix or whatever else you want. You can pull an orb and do a colossus scout. The observer isn't for scouting so much as detection anyway. Observers are nice, but not dying to banshees is nicer. Oh, so you just pick out my arguments against his where its convenient for you to pick up any misguided lapses in logic? . . .what? Lapses in logic? Please actually write coherently. What's wrong with that? You do know the definition of "lapse" and "logic", right? Because if you did, there is nothing wrong with it. Now, on the topic of writing "coherently", I am quite sure you don't know what the definition of the word is, as the use of it there is very poor as I have written "coherently". I can only assume that because you clearly don't know what "lapse" means. lol . . . "Oh so you just pick out my arguments against his where its convenient for you to pick up any misguided lapses in logic." That sentence, if you can call it that, makes no sense. And like half of your sentences are run ons. And you don't express your thoughts very clearly. The reason I said "Lapses in logic?", which you would know if you could read between the lines, is that I was wondering what the hell you meant by that. You say things like that that seem to mean nothing. And insulting us isn't helping your failing argument. lol Edit in response to your edit: IdrA is a completely biased source. That's like me asking one of you what ZvT is like.
So, in your inability to determine what it means, that must mean it makes no sense, right?
Alright now that we've cleared that piece of stupidity up, I will explain to you what it means.
I implied, that when I am arguing with trevf, you will pick up a line I write, completely throw it out of context (i.e. pick up any misguided lapses in logic - because there aren't any) and use it as a basis for your arguments.
And before you argue against that, I quote "I am not him and he is not me and I have no idea what the hell you just said. It had something to do with scouting with an observer"
Failed arguments? I am not the one that shut a person agreeing with me down, and myself down inadvertently. ROFL
|
On August 13 2010 23:51 Consummate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 23:45 MythicalMage wrote:On August 13 2010 23:41 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 23:36 MythicalMage wrote:On August 13 2010 23:32 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 23:29 MythicalMage wrote:On August 13 2010 23:24 Consummate wrote:
Yes, exactly as you said, *at some point* Protoss should get robo.
Your buddy over there said you should scout the siege tanks and catch them off guard, so unless I can get a couple of void rays and go back to robo (or some DT's/HT's) before you can push so I can get my observer out to actually do that - That means you just owned yourself, and him.
I love making people inadvertently own themselves with their poor arguing abilities.
GG NO RE, siege tanks are overpowered as proven by their own supporters. I am not him and he is not me and I have no idea what the hell you just said. It had something to do with scouting with an observer. Well, thing is, pheonixes, void rays, zealots, and DTs can all scout too. You can hallucinate a phoenix or whatever else you want. You can pull an orb and do a colossus scout. The observer isn't for scouting so much as detection anyway. Observers are nice, but not dying to banshees is nicer. Oh, so you just pick out my arguments against his where its convenient for you to pick up any misguided lapses in logic? . . .what? Lapses in logic? Please actually write coherently. What's wrong with that? You do know the definition of "lapse" and "logic", right? Because if you did, there is nothing wrong with it. Now, on the topic of writing "coherently", I am quite sure you don't know what the definition of the word is, as the use of it there is very poor as I have written "coherently". I can only assume that because you clearly don't know what "lapse" means. lol . . . "Oh so you just pick out my arguments against his where its convenient for you to pick up any misguided lapses in logic." That sentence, if you can call it that, makes no sense. And like half of your sentences are run ons. And you don't express your thoughts very clearly. The reason I said "Lapses in logic?", which you would know if you could read between the lines, is that I was wondering what the hell you meant by that. You say things like that that seem to mean nothing. And insulting us isn't helping your failing argument. lol Edit in response to your edit: IdrA is a completely biased source. That's like me asking one of you what ZvT is like. So, in your inability to determine what it means, that must mean it makes no sense, right? Alright now that we've cleared that piece of stupidity up, I will explain to you what it means. I implied, that when I am arguing with trevf, you will pick up a line I write, completely throw it out of context (i.e. pick up any misguided lapses in logic - because there aren't any) and use it as a basis for your arguments. And before you argue against that, I quote "I am not him and he is not me and I have no idea what the hell you just said. It had something to do with scouting with an observer" Failed arguments? I am not the one that shut a person agreeing with me down, and myself down inadvertently. ROFL It's good to see you're taking this seriously. Honestly, though, I'm not arguing about this anymore as it doesn't pertain to TvZ. You can start another thread and we can argue there if you like, but I'm not doing it in Lalush's thread anymore.
|
On August 13 2010 23:49 trevf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 23:38 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 23:31 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 23:08 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 22:55 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:37 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 22:29 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:16 Consummate wrote:
Watch him bring up that everyone has to scout where the Terran army is (so you don't run into siege tanks) but Terran don't have to scout where the enemy army is (so their Siege tanks don't get caught without Siege mode)
loving the double standards mate. I love the whole "you gotta scout" thing that doesn't apply to your own team. dude you're seriously showing your nub here. If i want to unsiege my tanks while I'm defending my natural, much less in the middle of the map, I have to scout to make sure your army isnt just out of sight waiting with an observer over my army. Which is where a good protoss player's army will be. Ready and waiting for an opportunity to abuse mech's immobility. I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning. meanwhile protoss has majority map control and has freedom to expand at will due to highly mobile army that will decimate an improperly positioned terran army. And he did it... He just said that because he can't scout properly. people take advantage of his siege tanks getting caught without siege mode. First of all I didn't say that I can't scout properly. I understand why you would put words in my mouth though. As your argument begins to show its weaknesses you attempt to throw up a strawman to distract from the fact that you really don't know what you're talking about. I've seen it many times before and its often effective. It is my hope that the TL community, in general, holds itself to higher standards than you do. It is my hope that people with illogical rants, such as yours, are banned sooner rather than later, as you really just detract from the community. Just to be clear: Its not that I can't scout properly, its that I have moved my tanks without scanning our scouting before and I was punished for it. I was illustrating, for you, the weakness of a mech army. In hopes that you would say, 'Oh, thats not a bad idea, I'll give that a try'. Rather than distort what I have said in order to propagate your useless and baseless opinion. Oh lord.... You said, and I quote "I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning." The question is, why do Zerg have to sacrifice Zerglings/overlords etc (like everyone has been saying) yet Terran are only capable of scanning? Is that bias I see? Can't you sacrifice a Marine to see where that "Good protoss player" will be instead of relying on scan? Secondly, you're stating that Protoss has an observer. Observer comes from Robo, what if I go stargate? Are you insinuating that I should be *forced* into getting a Robo? The tier tree for Protoss isn't the same as Terran. Thirdly, you have the audacity to claim my arguments are straw and illogical rants? Haha? You have insinuated "Terran don't have to scout/only have 1 means of scouting", and you have also thrown personal anecdotes as your arguments, which I believe aren't at top level. Whereas I use maths and top level play as mine (as in, what I have observed from top players). You have also stated that players should run past the MM blob and attack the siege tanks, do you have any idea how stupid that is? You should just give up, you make no sense whatsoever and lack any rational thought. My child, the person with illogical and straw arguments is you. Yes, terran can sacrifice a marine to see where the player might be, its probably even a better move to build hellions and to poke forward quickly. Terran, like zerg and protoss, has options on how they can scout. To not scout as a terran is bad play. I'd say the same for any race. I don't think protoss are forced into robo play to get a good scout. If you go stargate you would probably be getting a void ray or an early phoenix for harass. These both come out about the same time as the first or second viking for terran if terran goes 1/1/1. Void ray harass allows you to pin the terran player to his base and gives you the ability to expand to your natural on pace, if not earlier than terran can take theirs in this situation. Another option for protoss to scout is to research halucinate. It does have an expense associated with it, but if you're going 4 gate and feel the need to scout then it is there as an option. This is not a novel idea. And do I have the audacity to claim your arguments are illogical? Yes, I do. I haven't insinuated the things you claim I have. You certainly have extrapolated these ideas, but just because I didnt go through the process of explaining the mechanics of the entire game doesn't mean you can say I insinuated things that would make me appear to be a fool. Is my gameplay top level? I'm not about to go pro but I do have a w/l ratio greater than 1 in diamond. I don't see a problem citing my personal experiences with the PvT matchup. Although, you do use 'maths' as your argument, which is a powerful strategy. I will attempt to reconcile my position using 'maths'. Perhaps I can find some information on how to do so using the googler so that I can further refudiate your claims. The basis behind your "Siege tanks are balanced" argument is that you need to take advantage of their immobility and attack while they're moving. Now, realistically - how useful is any unit other than an observer at scouting if the terran is moving his tanks etc? Remember, this is something you will have to sit there watching, I would like to see how long a phoenix or void ray lasts just hovering about your blob and observing when they unsiege to actually initiate an attack on them. I have a feeling you don't even know your own arguments. You haven't insinuated what I claim? Then you mustn't have even read what you're typing because you sure have. Oh and, I am also in Diamond, with a better ratio than 1:1 too. I don't see the point you're attempting to make there. I was highlighting the fact that there are units other than the observer capable of scouting. Yet if you open void rays and see mech play coming then you should be transitioning to robo play for immortals. If you don't you're making a bad decision. The void ray harass will pin the terran player in his base giving you tiem to expand and tech switch. This is dependent on good scouting, good micro, good timing, and good decision making, which is to be expected at high level play. Protoss have many viable ways to gain an advantage over terran, but they all depend on playing well. The same can be said for terran over protoss.
Immortals do counter Siege tanks on a 1 to 1 basis. But, if you include other factors like the MM blob that will inevitably prevent the Immortal from even reaching the Siege tank, and you realise it isn't exactly a great counter.
|
On August 13 2010 23:44 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +I don't think protoss are forced into robo play to get a good scout. If you go stargate you would probably be getting a void ray or an early phoenix for harass. These both come out about the same time as the first or second viking for terran if terran goes 1/1/1. Void ray harass allows you to pin the terran player to his base and gives you the ability to expand to your natural on pace, if not earlier than terran can take theirs in this situation. once I get home I will post a replay I've watched yesterday, where a protoss who went 2 gate stargate (or was it even 1 gate stargate? can't remember right now) got terribly owned by the terran who literally "switched" to banshees - lifting up two buildings and replacing them so the stargate gets the techlab isn't that time-consuming......needless to say, the robo wasn't ready on time, no observer means pretty much GG vs banshees; I'd love day9 get onto that because it is in fact what I would call a brutally hard "counter"; the protoss player can only win if he has chronoboosted the hell out of the stargate and manages to finish the terran off with his first attack; the only reason why many people don't switch to banshees in such situations fast enough is because they don't expect anything else than 1 gate, 2 gate or 3 gate robo-builds anymore and get sloppy with their scouting after they have detected the amount of gates of their opponents EDIT: why did this thread turn from ZvT to PvT again?
The time it takes to research cloak is not less than the time it takes to build a robo facility or a forge. 2 starports 2 tech labs, cloak and two banshees costs 900/650 as well as a significant investment in time. This directly correlates to a weak ground army. 2 banshees won't have enough cloaking energy to do a terrible amount of damage if you micro your probes away. As hard a counter as banshees are, 1 phoenix and 1 observer would hardcounter those banshees.
|
On August 13 2010 23:47 Carthage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 23:38 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 23:31 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 23:08 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 22:55 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:37 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 22:29 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:16 Consummate wrote:
Watch him bring up that everyone has to scout where the Terran army is (so you don't run into siege tanks) but Terran don't have to scout where the enemy army is (so their Siege tanks don't get caught without Siege mode)
loving the double standards mate. I love the whole "you gotta scout" thing that doesn't apply to your own team. dude you're seriously showing your nub here. If i want to unsiege my tanks while I'm defending my natural, much less in the middle of the map, I have to scout to make sure your army isnt just out of sight waiting with an observer over my army. Which is where a good protoss player's army will be. Ready and waiting for an opportunity to abuse mech's immobility. I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning. meanwhile protoss has majority map control and has freedom to expand at will due to highly mobile army that will decimate an improperly positioned terran army. And he did it... He just said that because he can't scout properly. people take advantage of his siege tanks getting caught without siege mode. First of all I didn't say that I can't scout properly. I understand why you would put words in my mouth though. As your argument begins to show its weaknesses you attempt to throw up a strawman to distract from the fact that you really don't know what you're talking about. I've seen it many times before and its often effective. It is my hope that the TL community, in general, holds itself to higher standards than you do. It is my hope that people with illogical rants, such as yours, are banned sooner rather than later, as you really just detract from the community. Just to be clear: Its not that I can't scout properly, its that I have moved my tanks without scanning our scouting before and I was punished for it. I was illustrating, for you, the weakness of a mech army. In hopes that you would say, 'Oh, thats not a bad idea, I'll give that a try'. Rather than distort what I have said in order to propagate your useless and baseless opinion. Oh lord.... You said, and I quote "I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning." The question is, why do Zerg have to sacrifice Zerglings/overlords etc (like everyone has been saying) yet Terran are only capable of scanning? Is that bias I see? Can't you sacrifice a Marine to see where that "Good protoss player" will be instead of relying on scan? Secondly, you're stating that Protoss has an observer. Observer comes from Robo, what if I go stargate? Are you insinuating that I should be *forced* into getting a Robo? The tier tree for Protoss isn't the same as Terran. Thirdly, you have the audacity to claim my arguments are straw and illogical rants? Haha? You have insinuated "Terran don't have to scout/only have 1 means of scouting", and you have also thrown personal anecdotes as your arguments, which I believe aren't at top level. Whereas I use maths and top level play as mine (as in, what I have observed from top players). You have also stated that players should run past the MM blob and attack the siege tanks, do you have any idea how stupid that is? You should just give up, you make no sense whatsoever and lack any rational thought. My child, the person with illogical and straw arguments is you. Yes, terran can sacrifice a marine to see where the player might be, its probably even a better move to build hellions and to poke forward quickly. Terran, like zerg and protoss, has options on how they can scout. To not scout as a terran is bad play. I'd say the same for any race. I don't think protoss are forced into robo play to get a good scout. If you go stargate you would probably be getting a void ray or an early phoenix for harass. These both come out about the same time as the first or second viking for terran if terran goes 1/1/1. Void ray harass allows you to pin the terran player to his base and gives you the ability to expand to your natural on pace, if not earlier than terran can take theirs in this situation. Another option for protoss to scout is to research halucinate. It does have an expense associated with it, but if you're going 4 gate and feel the need to scout then it is there as an option. This is not a novel idea. And do I have the audacity to claim your arguments are illogical? Yes, I do. I haven't insinuated the things you claim I have. You certainly have extrapolated these ideas, but just because I didnt go through the process of explaining the mechanics of the entire game doesn't mean you can say I insinuated things that would make me appear to be a fool. Is my gameplay top level? I'm not about to go pro but I do have a w/l ratio greater than 1 in diamond. I don't see a problem citing my personal experiences with the PvT matchup. Although, you do use 'maths' as your argument, which is a powerful strategy. I will attempt to reconcile my position using 'maths'. Perhaps I can find some information on how to do so using the googler so that I can further refudiate your claims. The basis behind your "Siege tanks are balanced" argument is that you need to take advantage of their immobility and attack while they're moving. Now, realistically - how useful is any unit other than an observer at scouting if the terran is moving his tanks etc? Remember, this is something you will have to sit there watching, I would like to see how long a phoenix or void ray lasts just hovering about your blob and observing when they unsiege to actually initiate an attack on them. I have a feeling you don't even know your own arguments. You haven't insinuated what I claim? Then you mustn't have even read what you're typing because you sure have. Oh and, I am also in Diamond, with a better ratio than 1:1 too. I don't see the point you're attempting to make there. You learn where they are currently set up, and attack somewhere else. The terran player is then forced to move the tanks or lose whatever you are attacking. You don't sit there watching the terran build up forces and then eventually move, you take the game into your own hands and MAKE that terran player move.
I don't know why I should bother replying to this because you should be able to figure out how stupid that sounds.
Disregarding the fact that you can't always maneuver around to attack somewhere else - If you do "attack somewhere else" (aka base trade, because what else are you going to do?), do you really think you are going to beat siege tanks at it?
|
On August 13 2010 23:31 trevf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 23:08 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 22:55 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:37 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 22:29 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:16 Consummate wrote:
Watch him bring up that everyone has to scout where the Terran army is (so you don't run into siege tanks) but Terran don't have to scout where the enemy army is (so their Siege tanks don't get caught without Siege mode)
loving the double standards mate. I love the whole "you gotta scout" thing that doesn't apply to your own team. dude you're seriously showing your nub here. If i want to unsiege my tanks while I'm defending my natural, much less in the middle of the map, I have to scout to make sure your army isnt just out of sight waiting with an observer over my army. Which is where a good protoss player's army will be. Ready and waiting for an opportunity to abuse mech's immobility. I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning. meanwhile protoss has majority map control and has freedom to expand at will due to highly mobile army that will decimate an improperly positioned terran army. And he did it... He just said that because he can't scout properly. people take advantage of his siege tanks getting caught without siege mode. First of all I didn't say that I can't scout properly. I understand why you would put words in my mouth though. As your argument begins to show its weaknesses you attempt to throw up a strawman to distract from the fact that you really don't know what you're talking about. I've seen it many times before and its often effective. It is my hope that the TL community, in general, holds itself to higher standards than you do. It is my hope that people with illogical rants, such as yours, are banned sooner rather than later, as you really just detract from the community. Just to be clear: Its not that I can't scout properly, its that I have moved my tanks without scanning our scouting before and I was punished for it. I was illustrating, for you, the weakness of a mech army. In hopes that you would say, 'Oh, thats not a bad idea, I'll give that a try'. Rather than distort what I have said in order to propagate your useless and baseless opinion. Oh lord.... You said, and I quote "I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning." The question is, why do Zerg have to sacrifice Zerglings/overlords etc (like everyone has been saying) yet Terran are only capable of scanning? Is that bias I see? Can't you sacrifice a Marine to see where that "Good protoss player" will be instead of relying on scan? Secondly, you're stating that Protoss has an observer. Observer comes from Robo, what if I go stargate? Are you insinuating that I should be *forced* into getting a Robo? The tier tree for Protoss isn't the same as Terran. Thirdly, you have the audacity to claim my arguments are straw and illogical rants? Haha? You have insinuated "Terran don't have to scout/only have 1 means of scouting", and you have also thrown personal anecdotes as your arguments, which I believe aren't at top level. Whereas I use maths and top level play as mine (as in, what I have observed from top players). You have also stated that players should run past the MM blob and attack the siege tanks, do you have any idea how stupid that is? You should just give up, you make no sense whatsoever and lack any rational thought. My child, the person with illogical and straw arguments is you. Yes, terran can sacrifice a marine to see where the player might be, its probably even a better move to build hellions and to poke forward quickly. Terran, like zerg and protoss, has options on how they can scout. To not scout as a terran is bad play. I'd say the same for any race. I don't think protoss are forced into robo play to get a good scout. If you go stargate you would probably be getting a void ray or an early phoenix for harass. These both come out about the same time as the first or second viking for terran if terran goes 1/1/1. Void ray harass allows you to pin the terran player to his base and gives you the ability to expand to your natural on pace, if not earlier than terran can take theirs in this situation. Another option for protoss to scout is to research halucinate. It does have an expense associated with it, but if you're going 4 gate and feel the need to scout then it is there as an option. This is not a novel idea. And do I have the audacity to claim your arguments are illogical? Yes, I do. I haven't insinuated the things you claim I have. You certainly have extrapolated these ideas, but just because I didnt go through the process of explaining the mechanics of the entire game doesn't mean you can say I insinuated things that would make me appear to be a fool. Is my gameplay top level? I'm not about to go pro but I do have a w/l ratio greater than 1 in diamond. I don't see a problem citing my personal experiences with the PvT matchup. Although, you do use 'maths' as your argument, which is a powerful strategy. I will attempt to reconcile my position using 'maths'. Perhaps I can find some information on how to do so using the googler so that I can further refudiate your claims.
Everything you said about the voidray opening is true. The only problem is that you fail to acknowledge that if the terran went for a cloak banshee rush. You will lose every single probe or lose mining time for 30-50 seconds while there is an invisible unit in your mineral line. You simply need to adjust all your builds to counter cloak banshee. Be it by pressuring and delaying his tech far enough to get a robo out later (after starport or whatever tech) or just doing a robo build. But the fact that terran can force a minimum of 200 gas and a building you dont really want every single game by just being terran. Well that's not balance.
Sure sometimes it works to all in his main with your entire army. But a good terran will have adequate defenses up when doing this build.
That being said. I win alot of games vs terran at about 900 pts diamond. Even though I sometimes face the very top names on europe I can put up a fight. But most of the games I win I do because the terran is too stupid to make one single viking to counter my drops or because he's making 8 marauders instead of 16 marines early so I can just force field him to death or that he refuses to use one of his medivacs to harass one of my 3 thinly spread bases. Many terrans have really bad builds and still get to the top simply because they ahve good mechanics and can freestyle with a flexible 1-1-1 style or an aggressive bio timing attack that on some maps flrankly is unstoppable if you can't delay it or hurt him early on.
|
On August 14 2010 00:01 Consummate wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 23:47 Carthage wrote:On August 13 2010 23:38 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 23:31 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 23:08 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 22:55 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:37 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 22:29 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:16 Consummate wrote:
Watch him bring up that everyone has to scout where the Terran army is (so you don't run into siege tanks) but Terran don't have to scout where the enemy army is (so their Siege tanks don't get caught without Siege mode)
loving the double standards mate. I love the whole "you gotta scout" thing that doesn't apply to your own team. dude you're seriously showing your nub here. If i want to unsiege my tanks while I'm defending my natural, much less in the middle of the map, I have to scout to make sure your army isnt just out of sight waiting with an observer over my army. Which is where a good protoss player's army will be. Ready and waiting for an opportunity to abuse mech's immobility. I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning. meanwhile protoss has majority map control and has freedom to expand at will due to highly mobile army that will decimate an improperly positioned terran army. And he did it... He just said that because he can't scout properly. people take advantage of his siege tanks getting caught without siege mode. First of all I didn't say that I can't scout properly. I understand why you would put words in my mouth though. As your argument begins to show its weaknesses you attempt to throw up a strawman to distract from the fact that you really don't know what you're talking about. I've seen it many times before and its often effective. It is my hope that the TL community, in general, holds itself to higher standards than you do. It is my hope that people with illogical rants, such as yours, are banned sooner rather than later, as you really just detract from the community. Just to be clear: Its not that I can't scout properly, its that I have moved my tanks without scanning our scouting before and I was punished for it. I was illustrating, for you, the weakness of a mech army. In hopes that you would say, 'Oh, thats not a bad idea, I'll give that a try'. Rather than distort what I have said in order to propagate your useless and baseless opinion. Oh lord.... You said, and I quote "I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning." The question is, why do Zerg have to sacrifice Zerglings/overlords etc (like everyone has been saying) yet Terran are only capable of scanning? Is that bias I see? Can't you sacrifice a Marine to see where that "Good protoss player" will be instead of relying on scan? Secondly, you're stating that Protoss has an observer. Observer comes from Robo, what if I go stargate? Are you insinuating that I should be *forced* into getting a Robo? The tier tree for Protoss isn't the same as Terran. Thirdly, you have the audacity to claim my arguments are straw and illogical rants? Haha? You have insinuated "Terran don't have to scout/only have 1 means of scouting", and you have also thrown personal anecdotes as your arguments, which I believe aren't at top level. Whereas I use maths and top level play as mine (as in, what I have observed from top players). You have also stated that players should run past the MM blob and attack the siege tanks, do you have any idea how stupid that is? You should just give up, you make no sense whatsoever and lack any rational thought. My child, the person with illogical and straw arguments is you. Yes, terran can sacrifice a marine to see where the player might be, its probably even a better move to build hellions and to poke forward quickly. Terran, like zerg and protoss, has options on how they can scout. To not scout as a terran is bad play. I'd say the same for any race. I don't think protoss are forced into robo play to get a good scout. If you go stargate you would probably be getting a void ray or an early phoenix for harass. These both come out about the same time as the first or second viking for terran if terran goes 1/1/1. Void ray harass allows you to pin the terran player to his base and gives you the ability to expand to your natural on pace, if not earlier than terran can take theirs in this situation. Another option for protoss to scout is to research halucinate. It does have an expense associated with it, but if you're going 4 gate and feel the need to scout then it is there as an option. This is not a novel idea. And do I have the audacity to claim your arguments are illogical? Yes, I do. I haven't insinuated the things you claim I have. You certainly have extrapolated these ideas, but just because I didnt go through the process of explaining the mechanics of the entire game doesn't mean you can say I insinuated things that would make me appear to be a fool. Is my gameplay top level? I'm not about to go pro but I do have a w/l ratio greater than 1 in diamond. I don't see a problem citing my personal experiences with the PvT matchup. Although, you do use 'maths' as your argument, which is a powerful strategy. I will attempt to reconcile my position using 'maths'. Perhaps I can find some information on how to do so using the googler so that I can further refudiate your claims. The basis behind your "Siege tanks are balanced" argument is that you need to take advantage of their immobility and attack while they're moving. Now, realistically - how useful is any unit other than an observer at scouting if the terran is moving his tanks etc? Remember, this is something you will have to sit there watching, I would like to see how long a phoenix or void ray lasts just hovering about your blob and observing when they unsiege to actually initiate an attack on them. I have a feeling you don't even know your own arguments. You haven't insinuated what I claim? Then you mustn't have even read what you're typing because you sure have. Oh and, I am also in Diamond, with a better ratio than 1:1 too. I don't see the point you're attempting to make there. You learn where they are currently set up, and attack somewhere else. The terran player is then forced to move the tanks or lose whatever you are attacking. You don't sit there watching the terran build up forces and then eventually move, you take the game into your own hands and MAKE that terran player move. I don't know why I should bother replying to this because you should be able to figure out how stupid that sounds. Disregarding the fact that you can't always maneuver around to attack somewhere else - If you do "attack somewhere else" (aka base trade, because what else are you going to do?), do you really think you are going to beat siege tanks at it?
He was implying attacking another expansion, dropping his main, warping in in his main and the like.
|
On August 14 2010 00:01 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 23:31 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 23:08 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 22:55 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:37 Consummate wrote:On August 13 2010 22:29 trevf wrote:On August 13 2010 22:16 Consummate wrote:
Watch him bring up that everyone has to scout where the Terran army is (so you don't run into siege tanks) but Terran don't have to scout where the enemy army is (so their Siege tanks don't get caught without Siege mode)
loving the double standards mate. I love the whole "you gotta scout" thing that doesn't apply to your own team. dude you're seriously showing your nub here. If i want to unsiege my tanks while I'm defending my natural, much less in the middle of the map, I have to scout to make sure your army isnt just out of sight waiting with an observer over my army. Which is where a good protoss player's army will be. Ready and waiting for an opportunity to abuse mech's immobility. I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning. meanwhile protoss has majority map control and has freedom to expand at will due to highly mobile army that will decimate an improperly positioned terran army. And he did it... He just said that because he can't scout properly. people take advantage of his siege tanks getting caught without siege mode. First of all I didn't say that I can't scout properly. I understand why you would put words in my mouth though. As your argument begins to show its weaknesses you attempt to throw up a strawman to distract from the fact that you really don't know what you're talking about. I've seen it many times before and its often effective. It is my hope that the TL community, in general, holds itself to higher standards than you do. It is my hope that people with illogical rants, such as yours, are banned sooner rather than later, as you really just detract from the community. Just to be clear: Its not that I can't scout properly, its that I have moved my tanks without scanning our scouting before and I was punished for it. I was illustrating, for you, the weakness of a mech army. In hopes that you would say, 'Oh, thats not a bad idea, I'll give that a try'. Rather than distort what I have said in order to propagate your useless and baseless opinion. Oh lord.... You said, and I quote "I've lost a handful of games due to simply not scanning 1 screen length away before I unsiege to make a slight repositioning." The question is, why do Zerg have to sacrifice Zerglings/overlords etc (like everyone has been saying) yet Terran are only capable of scanning? Is that bias I see? Can't you sacrifice a Marine to see where that "Good protoss player" will be instead of relying on scan? Secondly, you're stating that Protoss has an observer. Observer comes from Robo, what if I go stargate? Are you insinuating that I should be *forced* into getting a Robo? The tier tree for Protoss isn't the same as Terran. Thirdly, you have the audacity to claim my arguments are straw and illogical rants? Haha? You have insinuated "Terran don't have to scout/only have 1 means of scouting", and you have also thrown personal anecdotes as your arguments, which I believe aren't at top level. Whereas I use maths and top level play as mine (as in, what I have observed from top players). You have also stated that players should run past the MM blob and attack the siege tanks, do you have any idea how stupid that is? You should just give up, you make no sense whatsoever and lack any rational thought. My child, the person with illogical and straw arguments is you. Yes, terran can sacrifice a marine to see where the player might be, its probably even a better move to build hellions and to poke forward quickly. Terran, like zerg and protoss, has options on how they can scout. To not scout as a terran is bad play. I'd say the same for any race. I don't think protoss are forced into robo play to get a good scout. If you go stargate you would probably be getting a void ray or an early phoenix for harass. These both come out about the same time as the first or second viking for terran if terran goes 1/1/1. Void ray harass allows you to pin the terran player to his base and gives you the ability to expand to your natural on pace, if not earlier than terran can take theirs in this situation. Another option for protoss to scout is to research halucinate. It does have an expense associated with it, but if you're going 4 gate and feel the need to scout then it is there as an option. This is not a novel idea. And do I have the audacity to claim your arguments are illogical? Yes, I do. I haven't insinuated the things you claim I have. You certainly have extrapolated these ideas, but just because I didnt go through the process of explaining the mechanics of the entire game doesn't mean you can say I insinuated things that would make me appear to be a fool. Is my gameplay top level? I'm not about to go pro but I do have a w/l ratio greater than 1 in diamond. I don't see a problem citing my personal experiences with the PvT matchup. Although, you do use 'maths' as your argument, which is a powerful strategy. I will attempt to reconcile my position using 'maths'. Perhaps I can find some information on how to do so using the googler so that I can further refudiate your claims. Everything you said about the voidray opening is true. The only problem is that you fail to acknowledge that if the terran went for a cloak banshee rush. You will lose every single probe or lose mining time for 30-50 seconds while there is an invisible unit in your mineral line. You simply need to adjust all your builds to counter cloak banshee. Be it by pressuring and delaying his tech far enough to get a robo out later (after starport or whatever tech) or just doing a robo build. But the fact that terran can force a minimum of 200 gas and a building you dont really want every single game by just being terran. Well that's not balance. Sure sometimes it works to all in his main with your entire army. But a good terran will have adequate defenses up when doing this build. That being said. I win alot of games vs terran at about 900 pts diamond. Even though I sometimes face the very top names on europe I can put up a fight. But most of the games I win I do because the terran is too stupid to make one single viking to counter my drops or because he's making 8 marauders instead of 16 marines early so I can just force field him to death or that he refuses to use one of his medivacs to harass one of my 3 thinly spread bases. Many terrans have really bad builds and still get to the top simply because they ahve good mechanics and can freestyle with a flexible 1-1-1 style or an aggressive bio timing attack that on some maps flrankly is unstoppable if you can't delay it or hurt him early on.
Thank you for responding in a way that promotes civil discussion.
You are right that if you fail to see the cloak part of the banshee coming you will be quite a bit screwed, and the thing about getting just 1 or 2 cloaked banshees off 1 starport is that its hard to notice the impact on the rest of terrans army, since its not a heavy 2 starport build. That being said, going voidrays make the terran want to have 1 or 2 vikings in his base until he gets stim up. This is enough to derail a banshee rush's timing well enough so that there is tiem to get a cannon up or even better, transition to robo and expand. That has been my experience. Its a tricky balancing act for both races, which is why I think that the match up is well balanced. If one person goes too hard in one direction in terms of tech they could get irrevocably screwed. It can easily become an 'all-in' situation. That seems proper though. Not every tech choice should be safe from every tech choice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
