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On August 11 2010 14:51 alsowikk wrote:
All the zerg players here realize medivacs are the ONLY regen the terran can get right? And stim costs health, and it's needed for kiting and chasing...yeah without those medivac's the terran might do as much damage to themselves as their enemies.
Stim is not needed for Kiting. Concussive Shells make it easier. I've watched several T players Kite without Stim. Chase, well, sure.
The final point about doing as much damage to themselves as their enemies is that the enemy is probably dead. So you have a bunch of half health units... you still won and you can bring just a couple Medivacs to bring the whole group to full in no time.
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Lol, this thread was started by a top player, as was the Zerg Observations thread in the strat section.
Top players are trying to get the games flaws fixed so when they go out to, you know, try to make money, they have a chance.
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On August 11 2010 14:56 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 14:50 travis wrote:On August 11 2010 14:47 Vokasak wrote:On August 11 2010 14:41 travis wrote:
Vokasak:
who the hell are you? what have you accomplished? you know more than top players (both terran and zerg?). No sir. Like I already said, I give up. You're all right, TvZ is horrible imbalanced because Zergs are doing all they can to the best of their abilities and still coming up short. Maybe if we make Thor's air attack range 4, perhaps if siege tanks dealt 12 damage, if only marauders had 15 hp... I can see how seriously you take it. Clearly you take it as seriously as the teams of players who play at pro or semi pro level and have both terran and zerg players trying to come up with ways for zerg to even the playing field in zvt. I am sure you spend all your time playing zvt against top terran players practicing various strategies and ideas. Oh wait, I actually don't think that at all. To be fair, the top players are busy out being top players. I doubt they have the time to create the sheer volume of ZvT complain threads that these forums have seen lately. They're not the ones making them, and even if they were, their time would be better spent practicing the aforementioned various strategies and ideas.
that doesn't mean they don't agree with them... i know for a fact that at least many of them do. though im sure some terrans wouldn't admit it regardless.
I'm aware that seniority has it's privileges on these forums, and that this clearly isn't a debate I have the postcount or registration date to win, but surely we can agree that this isn't a problem that refined creative play can't solve? We both want the level of play to rise, don't we? Blizzard coming in and waving their magic wand won't help us in that regard.
well, ive been playing and watching sc for 12 years now, and im really not too bad at sc2. beyond that, i've heard the opinions of many top players. now, while creative play can indeed make up for a lot, at some point it becomes blatantly obvious that maybe one race has it WAY EASIER than another race.
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The problem I see with the matchup, TvZ, is the way how the Terran attack is initiated.
For example, people say PvZ is a relatively good match up and here's why I think that is. In PvZ, if you're the attacker you're at a disadvantage compared to the defender: as the Zerg attacker you have to deal with the "Protoss advantage" of warp ins next to his army to reinforce. However, as the Protoss attacker you have to deal with the "Zerg advantage" of Creep as well as reinforcements. Of course, proxy pylons exist but this is a mere "reinforce a winning army": if the main army is dying horribly you aren't going to engage with 4, 5 or 6 more units just to have them die too, you'll preserve them for later use.
The problem with the Terran v Zerg matchup is that when a Terran attacks he is at no disadvantage because of his range advantages over the Zerg. If the Terran engages with a line of Marines shielding a handful of Siege tanks that are attacking your Hatchery, or Spine Crawlers, or whatever, the Terran has no disadvantage in this situation because (sure he's immobile) but the Zerg has two options here: a) attack the Terran or b) do nothing and lose. However, if the Zerg chooses to attack he's then dealing with the Siege tanks range which nullify the creep bonuses paired with Stimpack speed increases as well as Hellion speed. Whereas, on the other hand, the Zerg who attacks must deal with the turtling power of Siege tanks as well as the turtling power of Bunkers and it forces the Zerg into passivity where he must wait for 'xyz' to effectively attack with any chance of winning. The Terran player on the other hand, can do it simply with a handful of units because of the range power the Terran army has.
It's partly this, and more often than not the horrible map pool though. Most maps, if we're being truthful, favour the Terran player because there are "sweet spots" where Siege tanks cannot be "flanked" or "sniped by air" because of the way the choke works. A brilliant example would be Steppes of War or Lost Temple chokes just outside the natural: on both, you effectively stop any possibility of a flank because of the Siege Tank range and you're protected by a small infantry/other mech force in front. It leaves no option but to engage, from the Zerg player.
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On August 11 2010 14:56 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 14:50 travis wrote:On August 11 2010 14:47 Vokasak wrote:On August 11 2010 14:41 travis wrote:
Vokasak:
who the hell are you? what have you accomplished? you know more than top players (both terran and zerg?). No sir. Like I already said, I give up. You're all right, TvZ is horrible imbalanced because Zergs are doing all they can to the best of their abilities and still coming up short. Maybe if we make Thor's air attack range 4, perhaps if siege tanks dealt 12 damage, if only marauders had 15 hp... I can see how seriously you take it. Clearly you take it as seriously as the teams of players who play at pro or semi pro level and have both terran and zerg players trying to come up with ways for zerg to even the playing field in zvt. I am sure you spend all your time playing zvt against top terran players practicing various strategies and ideas. Oh wait, I actually don't think that at all. To be fair, the top players are busy out being top players. I doubt they have the time to create the sheer volume of ZvT complain threads that these forums have seen lately. They're not the ones making them, and even if they were, their time would be better spent practicing the aforementioned various strategies and ideas. I'm aware that seniority has it's privileges on these forums, and that this clearly isn't a debate I have the postcount or registration date to win, but surely we can agree that this isn't a problem that refined creative play can't solve? We both want the level of play to rise, don't we? Blizzard coming in and waving their magic wand won't help us in that regard.
no amount of creativity is gonna get a zergling past a wallin or an overlord past a marine
zergs midgame army seems very weak, its possible creativity can find a way around that, although when newbies hear the word creativity they picture nydus worms popping up in 2 places at once, which isnt going to be an answer to anything.
but the early game problems with zvt are not going to go away.
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On August 11 2010 15:01 travis wrote:
that doesn't mean they don't agree with them... i know for a fact that at least many of them do. though im sure some terrans wouldn't admit it regardless.
I know a certain zerg duo currently living in Korea that might agree with them, although as far as I can tell even they've been backing down from the imbalance complaining.
Still, I'm sort of forced to take your word that you know for a fact that "many" (Whatever number that is) agree that TvZ is imbalanced. Until some top players post here (Admittedly I haven't read all 50+ pages, they may have already), we can't definitively say either way. Nevermind.
On August 11 2010 15:01 travis wrote:
well, ive been playing and watching sc for 12 years now, and im really not too bad at sc2. beyond that, i've heard the opinions of many top players. now, while creative play can indeed make up for a lot, at some point it becomes blatantly obvious that maybe one race has it WAY EASIER than another race.
And you think we've hit that point? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
On August 11 2010 15:05 IdrA wrote:
no amount of creativity is gonna get a zergling past a wallin or an overlord past a marine
zergs midgame army seems very weak, its possible creativity can find a way around that, although when newbies hear the word creativity they picture nydus worms popping up in 2 places at once, which isnt going to be an answer to anything.
but the early game problems with zvt are not going to go away.
This is probably true, but the early game has always been weird, ever since Brood War. None of the suggested changes would affect the early game much anyway, except maybe the bunker salvage stuff. Perhaps the counter to these early game problems is to get to the midgame?
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Russian Federation28 Posts
On August 11 2010 14:56 NonFactor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 14:43 Vengeaner wrote:
By the way, actually there is one significant myth in TvZ as it seems for me.
Actually Thors doesnt own muta that badly, they are even if muta has +1 attack and Thors' attack upgrades are no more than mutas def upgrades.
Did alot of testing in UnitTester and i saw that 6 Muta >> 2 Thors, 9 Muta >> 3 Thors, 12 Muta >> 4 Thors etc. 1:1 mineral proportion but 3:2 gas. tho i am ready to pay abit more gas for mutas mobility and harass possibilities.
Mass muta forces T to go marines or add vikings, and marines could be owned hardly by banelings. So i vote for a start with speedlings + mutas and roaches/banelings depends on mech/bio setup of T's army.
Of course main trick is to stay spreaded with "stop" command. This little fact turned around all my TvZ match ups )) This doesen't work. It might work against 1-2 Thors, but if it goes up to 3 you will simply evaporate. It's not like the Thors are shooting at the exactly same Mutas so that the AoE stays on one area. So unless the Terran for some reasons clicks with his Thors instead of just A-moving or spreading his damage around, this doesen't really change anything. Also, even in Mech armies Marines are often included in, they don't have upgrades so they are relatively weak but still pack a decent punch especially against Mutas. (Marines are 50 minerals and you already have a Barracks so if you just keep pumping from that you will have a decent amount of Marines for your push, something that many Terrans seem to neglect, mainly because they don't realize the strenght of Marines even when they are without stim as a extra DPSer and a meatshield since Zerg doesen't have any AoE in Lair apart from banelings which get owned by Siege tanks / Thors, and FG which is a spell, meaning, if your marines are dying, your tanks / thors are not, since Hydralisks and Roaches which are there to do the damage, are single target.)
Sorry, seems i did not pointed out the main point. It is possible to keep muta spreaded even if there are 20 mutas to not let even for a one thors attack hit two mutas, thats the point, this is done by "Stop" command, after stopping mutas get spreaded -> move beyond the thor and Stop again, then order to attack desired thor, and Thors CANT aoe at all!
By the way, Thors does not win spreaded mutas even by focus firing them one by one.
This is the main trick in all i mentioned before. And no one said that you should not have ground support ) that goes w/o saying
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On August 11 2010 15:05 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 15:01 travis wrote:
that doesn't mean they don't agree with them... i know for a fact that at least many of them do. though im sure some terrans wouldn't admit it regardless. I know a certain zerg duo currently living in Korea that might agree with them, although as far as I can tell even they've been backing down from the imbalance complaining. Still, I'm sort of forced to take your word that you know for a fact that "many" (Whatever number that is) agree that TvZ is imbalanced. Until some top players post here (Admittedly I haven't read all 50+ pages, they may have already), we can't definitively say either way. Nevermind. Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 15:01 travis wrote:
well, ive been playing and watching sc for 12 years now, and im really not too bad at sc2. beyond that, i've heard the opinions of many top players. now, while creative play can indeed make up for a lot, at some point it becomes blatantly obvious that maybe one race has it WAY EASIER than another race. And you think we've hit that point? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 15:05 IdrA wrote:
no amount of creativity is gonna get a zergling past a wallin or an overlord past a marine
zergs midgame army seems very weak, its possible creativity can find a way around that, although when newbies hear the word creativity they picture nydus worms popping up in 2 places at once, which isnt going to be an answer to anything.
but the early game problems with zvt are not going to go away. This is probably true, but the early game has always been weird, ever since Brood War. None of the suggested changes would affect the early game much anyway, except maybe the bunker salvage stuff. Perhaps the counter to these early game problems is to get to the midgame?
i wasnt supporting the op's suggestions, theyre mostly aimed at the strength of terran in general, and while terran is very strong it may be blown out of proportion by the fact that terran virtually always enters the mid game with a significant advantage. reaper and bunker rushes, zealot rushes as well, need to be significantly nerfed. i suspect roaches or neural parasite will still need to be buffed after that, but the early game changes should be made first and then evaluated.
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Artosis
United States2138 Posts
On August 11 2010 15:17 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 15:05 Vokasak wrote:On August 11 2010 15:01 travis wrote:
that doesn't mean they don't agree with them... i know for a fact that at least many of them do. though im sure some terrans wouldn't admit it regardless. I know a certain zerg duo currently living in Korea that might agree with them, although as far as I can tell even they've been backing down from the imbalance complaining. Still, I'm sort of forced to take your word that you know for a fact that "many" (Whatever number that is) agree that TvZ is imbalanced. Until some top players post here (Admittedly I haven't read all 50+ pages, they may have already), we can't definitively say either way. Nevermind. On August 11 2010 15:01 travis wrote:
well, ive been playing and watching sc for 12 years now, and im really not too bad at sc2. beyond that, i've heard the opinions of many top players. now, while creative play can indeed make up for a lot, at some point it becomes blatantly obvious that maybe one race has it WAY EASIER than another race. And you think we've hit that point? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. On August 11 2010 15:05 IdrA wrote:
no amount of creativity is gonna get a zergling past a wallin or an overlord past a marine
zergs midgame army seems very weak, its possible creativity can find a way around that, although when newbies hear the word creativity they picture nydus worms popping up in 2 places at once, which isnt going to be an answer to anything.
but the early game problems with zvt are not going to go away. This is probably true, but the early game has always been weird, ever since Brood War. None of the suggested changes would affect the early game much anyway, except maybe the bunker salvage stuff. Perhaps the counter to these early game problems is to get to the midgame? i wasnt supporting the op's suggestions, theyre mostly aimed at the strength of terran in general, and while terran is very strong it may be blown out of proportion by the fact that terran virtually always enters the mid game with a significant advantage. reaper and bunker rushes, zealot rushes as well, need to be significantly nerfed. i suspect roaches or neural parasite will still need to be buffed after that, but the early game changes should be made first and then evaluated.
Totally true. You have to evaluate the early game properly before going on to the mid and late games. Right now the Zerg early game has no good answer vs fast Reaper openings and 2gateway Zealot rushes/pressure. Once those 2 are fixed, we are also going to have to wait for the Terran/Protoss players who have been doing nothing but abusing these imbalances to catch up in skill to the Zergs who have been living through this time so that we can properly evaluate the mid game.
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On August 11 2010 15:17 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 15:05 Vokasak wrote:On August 11 2010 15:01 travis wrote:
that doesn't mean they don't agree with them... i know for a fact that at least many of them do. though im sure some terrans wouldn't admit it regardless. I know a certain zerg duo currently living in Korea that might agree with them, although as far as I can tell even they've been backing down from the imbalance complaining. Still, I'm sort of forced to take your word that you know for a fact that "many" (Whatever number that is) agree that TvZ is imbalanced. Until some top players post here (Admittedly I haven't read all 50+ pages, they may have already), we can't definitively say either way. Nevermind. On August 11 2010 15:01 travis wrote:
well, ive been playing and watching sc for 12 years now, and im really not too bad at sc2. beyond that, i've heard the opinions of many top players. now, while creative play can indeed make up for a lot, at some point it becomes blatantly obvious that maybe one race has it WAY EASIER than another race. And you think we've hit that point? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. On August 11 2010 15:05 IdrA wrote:
no amount of creativity is gonna get a zergling past a wallin or an overlord past a marine
zergs midgame army seems very weak, its possible creativity can find a way around that, although when newbies hear the word creativity they picture nydus worms popping up in 2 places at once, which isnt going to be an answer to anything.
but the early game problems with zvt are not going to go away. This is probably true, but the early game has always been weird, ever since Brood War. None of the suggested changes would affect the early game much anyway, except maybe the bunker salvage stuff. Perhaps the counter to these early game problems is to get to the midgame? i wasnt supporting the op's suggestions, theyre mostly aimed at the strength of terran in general, and while terran is very strong it may be blown out of proportion by the fact that terran virtually always enters the mid game with a significant advantage. reaper and bunker rushes, zealot rushes as well, need to be significantly nerfed. i suspect roaches or neural parasite will still need to be buffed after that, but the early game changes should be made first and then evaluated.
I'm nowhere near your level, IdrA, but I've never known rushing for reapers to be all that effective. Not since the build time increase oh so long ago. I've found far more sucess going rax on 12 and waiting until I get 3 reapers (Which also gives me time to me get the speed upgrade). Of course, by the time all that comes it, it's hardly a rush, and the opposition has nobody to blame but themselves for the losses they take. And at your mention of bunker rushes, the Brat_OK vs TLO game from a recent D9D came to mind. TLO seemed to take it in stride and come out ahead at the end of it all.
Still, you are the King of the Beta, so I'll have to take your word on it, my liege.
On August 11 2010 15:25 Artosis wrote:
Totally true. You have to evaluate the early game properly before going on to the mid and late games. Right now the Zerg early game has no good answer vs fast Reaper openings and 2gateway Zealot rushes/pressure. Once those 2 are fixed, we are also going to have to wait for the Terran/Protoss players who have been doing nothing but abusing these imbalances to catch up in skill to the Zergs who have been living through this time so that we can properly evaluate the mid game.
Come now, Artosis. You're not really suggesting that all the Terran/Protoss players have been doing nothing but fast reapers and 2 gate pressure, are you? Maybe the people you play against are doing this out of spite because they know how much you and IdrA love "cheese", but I don't think that's a fair assessment of what the majority of players are doing.
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So then we're back to 1.5 supply roaches?
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United States47024 Posts
On August 11 2010 15:28 Vokasak wrote:
I'm nowhere near your level, IdrA, but I've never known rushing for reapers to be all that effective. Not since the build time increase oh so long ago. I've found far more sucess going rax on 12 and waiting until I get 3 reapers (Which also gives me time to me get the speed upgrade). Of course, by the time all that comes it, it's hardly a rush, and the opposition has nobody to blame but themselves for the losses they take. And at your mention of bunker rushes, the Brat_OK vs TLO game from a recent D9D came to mind. TLO seemed to take it in stride and come out ahead at the end of it all.
Still, you are the King of the Beta, so I'll have to take your word on it, my liege.
The thing is that reapers eliminate the option of Zerg getting his hatchery before his spawning pool. In SC1, the Zerg economic model was entirely balanced around the fact that in a large percentage of games, Zerg will expand before his spawning pool. Obviously the Zerg has the Queen now, but that functions more as the 3rd, in-base hatchery more than the expansion hatch. Not to mention that the net economic benefit of the Queen is balanced out by the macro mechanics of the other 2 races.
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On August 11 2010 15:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 15:28 Vokasak wrote:
I'm nowhere near your level, IdrA, but I've never known rushing for reapers to be all that effective. Not since the build time increase oh so long ago. I've found far more sucess going rax on 12 and waiting until I get 3 reapers (Which also gives me time to me get the speed upgrade). Of course, by the time all that comes it, it's hardly a rush, and the opposition has nobody to blame but themselves for the losses they take. And at your mention of bunker rushes, the Brat_OK vs TLO game from a recent D9D came to mind. TLO seemed to take it in stride and come out ahead at the end of it all.
Still, you are the King of the Beta, so I'll have to take your word on it, my liege. The thing is that reapers eliminate the option of Zerg getting his hatchery before his spawning pool. In SC1, the Zerg economic model was entirely balanced around the fact that in a large percentage of games, Zerg will expand before his spawning pool. Obviously the Zerg has the Queen now, but that functions more as the 3rd, in-base hatchery more than the expansion hatch.
That's true, but that isn't necessarily bad or imbalaned. In BW, cannon FE and 14CC were also reasonable builds. I hate to respond with this cliche, but SC2 is a new game and it would be unreasonable if your Broodwar builds worked without some adjustment.
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On August 11 2010 15:40 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 15:37 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2010 15:28 Vokasak wrote:
I'm nowhere near your level, IdrA, but I've never known rushing for reapers to be all that effective. Not since the build time increase oh so long ago. I've found far more sucess going rax on 12 and waiting until I get 3 reapers (Which also gives me time to me get the speed upgrade). Of course, by the time all that comes it, it's hardly a rush, and the opposition has nobody to blame but themselves for the losses they take. And at your mention of bunker rushes, the Brat_OK vs TLO game from a recent D9D came to mind. TLO seemed to take it in stride and come out ahead at the end of it all.
Still, you are the King of the Beta, so I'll have to take your word on it, my liege. The thing is that reapers eliminate the option of Zerg getting his hatchery before his spawning pool. In SC1, the Zerg economic model was entirely balanced around the fact that in a large percentage of games, Zerg will expand before his spawning pool. Obviously the Zerg has the Queen now, but that functions more as the 3rd, in-base hatchery more than the expansion hatch. That's true, but that isn't necessarily bad or imbalaned. In BW, cannon FE and 14CC were also reasonable builds. I hate to respond with this cliche, but SC2 is a new game and it would be unreasonable if your Broodwar builds worked without some adjustment.
if you dont have a problem with reaper rushes or playing off defensive 1 base openings perhaps you should come play on the korean server so you can be first place.
or perhaps you shouldnt give anecdotal evidence from silver league.
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On August 03 2010 03:32 LaLuSh wrote:
I don't expect and I don't want all of them to be implemented. That would screw with terran too much (especially the actual balance change suggestions). It's merely a set of ideas for Blizzard to consider.
This is a very important point which people seem to overlook when discussing potential balance changes. And I think the diversity of ideas mentioned here are bound to present something of value.
In particular, I also think the macro element of the mule is much simpler (and arguably more valuable overall) than the tedious use of queens, chronos boost, and warp gates. Being good at macro is one thing, but having to babysit with an ability every thirty seconds is a serious distraction when you are in combat -- it's not like queuing up units and then focusing on the fight or dropping a mule in the same location every now and then. And don't forget that the orbital command already has an eminently useful ability with the scan.
Secondly... I had one of the same ideas about the bunker -- salvage should give back only 50% of their value -- otherwise they can be essentially free (and terran already has an economic advantage with the mules).
Third... the supply depots. This is somewhat subtle, but they can be quite the advantage for the walling terrans. Maybe the lowering ability could be purchased at the engineering bay? Just a thought.
Finally... the maurauders -- I don't know what can be said about them. They are so powerful without the concussive shells or stim and then become absolute beasts with them. I don't know what can or should be done, and I'm not sure about the suggestions mentioned by the OP, but something definitely needs to be done to, bluntly, nerf them.
As for the medivacs, I don't know if the are OP or not. I haven't done the math and I'm hung up about how powerful the MM is already without the last M! So... you may have a point, but it wasn't an issue I noticed or would have brought up.
Overall... I think this was a very good post and I hope something is done to generally rein in the OP terran forces. If this does hopefully happen though... I suspect that things will have to be implemented over time so as to not completely anger every terran player immediately. The balance changes from this point on will probably have to be implemented much more slowly than they were in the beta.
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On August 11 2010 15:28 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 15:17 IdrA wrote:On August 11 2010 15:05 Vokasak wrote:On August 11 2010 15:01 travis wrote:
that doesn't mean they don't agree with them... i know for a fact that at least many of them do. though im sure some terrans wouldn't admit it regardless. I know a certain zerg duo currently living in Korea that might agree with them, although as far as I can tell even they've been backing down from the imbalance complaining. Still, I'm sort of forced to take your word that you know for a fact that "many" (Whatever number that is) agree that TvZ is imbalanced. Until some top players post here (Admittedly I haven't read all 50+ pages, they may have already), we can't definitively say either way. Nevermind. On August 11 2010 15:01 travis wrote:
well, ive been playing and watching sc for 12 years now, and im really not too bad at sc2. beyond that, i've heard the opinions of many top players. now, while creative play can indeed make up for a lot, at some point it becomes blatantly obvious that maybe one race has it WAY EASIER than another race. And you think we've hit that point? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. On August 11 2010 15:05 IdrA wrote:
no amount of creativity is gonna get a zergling past a wallin or an overlord past a marine
zergs midgame army seems very weak, its possible creativity can find a way around that, although when newbies hear the word creativity they picture nydus worms popping up in 2 places at once, which isnt going to be an answer to anything.
but the early game problems with zvt are not going to go away. This is probably true, but the early game has always been weird, ever since Brood War. None of the suggested changes would affect the early game much anyway, except maybe the bunker salvage stuff. Perhaps the counter to these early game problems is to get to the midgame? i wasnt supporting the op's suggestions, theyre mostly aimed at the strength of terran in general, and while terran is very strong it may be blown out of proportion by the fact that terran virtually always enters the mid game with a significant advantage. reaper and bunker rushes, zealot rushes as well, need to be significantly nerfed. i suspect roaches or neural parasite will still need to be buffed after that, but the early game changes should be made first and then evaluated. I'm nowhere near your level, IdrA, but I've never known rushing for reapers to be all that effective. Not since the build time increase oh so long ago. I've found far more sucess going rax on 12 and waiting until I get 3 reapers (Which also gives me time to me get the speed upgrade). Of course, by the time all that comes it, it's hardly a rush, and the opposition has nobody to blame but themselves for the losses they take. And at your mention of bunker rushes, the Brat_OK vs TLO game from a recent D9D came to mind. TLO seemed to take it in stride and come out ahead at the end of it all. Still, you are the King of the Beta, so I'll have to take your word on it, my liege. Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 15:25 Artosis wrote:
Totally true. You have to evaluate the early game properly before going on to the mid and late games. Right now the Zerg early game has no good answer vs fast Reaper openings and 2gateway Zealot rushes/pressure. Once those 2 are fixed, we are also going to have to wait for the Terran/Protoss players who have been doing nothing but abusing these imbalances to catch up in skill to the Zergs who have been living through this time so that we can properly evaluate the mid game.
Come now, Artosis. You're not really suggesting that all the Terran/Protoss players have been doing nothing but fast reapers and 2 gate pressure, are you? Maybe the people you play against are doing this out of spite because they know how much you and IdrA love "cheese", but I don't think that's a fair assessment of what the majority of players are doing.
Artosis's (wow that's awkward to say and write) comment was about the average protoss player. Of course it's not all that protoss and terran have been doing but I warrant you that if I go on bnet and play 5 games against a terran 4 of them I'll encounter some form of early reapers. Then if I go onto bnet and play 5 toss players at least one of them will 2 gate rush me another one of them will try to cheese and another 2 might try a botched version of a 4 gate push which works really well regardless of how badly it's executed. He's saying that it's going to take a while for these people who have been abusing these strategies to come to terms with the fact that these strategies don't work any more and try new things. Just as you say that when the zerg nerfs first came and there were a lot of complainers who eventually got over it and tried new things. The reason why zerg players are complaining these days is because we've tried a seemingly endless array of approaches and nothing is working. Terran players can simply alter their build order slightly and we have to start from scratch.
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How about we just nerf terran into oblivion so they'll never be competitive again, Reading some of the suggestions seems like the Zerg players want that.
Please be reasonable with the changes to terran as some of them are currently ridicolous and unneeded.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 11 2010 15:57 Samus wrote:
How about we just nerf terran into oblivion so they'll never be competitive again, Reading some of the suggestions seems like the Zerg players want that.
There are going to be unreasonable players on both sides of the discussion. That doesn't mean the discussion isn't worth having.
On August 11 2010 15:40 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 15:37 TheYango wrote:On August 11 2010 15:28 Vokasak wrote:
I'm nowhere near your level, IdrA, but I've never known rushing for reapers to be all that effective. Not since the build time increase oh so long ago. I've found far more sucess going rax on 12 and waiting until I get 3 reapers (Which also gives me time to me get the speed upgrade). Of course, by the time all that comes it, it's hardly a rush, and the opposition has nobody to blame but themselves for the losses they take. And at your mention of bunker rushes, the Brat_OK vs TLO game from a recent D9D came to mind. TLO seemed to take it in stride and come out ahead at the end of it all.
Still, you are the King of the Beta, so I'll have to take your word on it, my liege. The thing is that reapers eliminate the option of Zerg getting his hatchery before his spawning pool. In SC1, the Zerg economic model was entirely balanced around the fact that in a large percentage of games, Zerg will expand before his spawning pool. Obviously the Zerg has the Queen now, but that functions more as the 3rd, in-base hatchery more than the expansion hatch. That's true, but that isn't necessarily bad or imbalaned. In BW, cannon FE and 14CC were also reasonable builds. I hate to respond with this cliche, but SC2 is a new game and it would be unreasonable if your Broodwar builds worked without some adjustment.
14CC is hardly "reasonable" in most cases, and PvZ was balanced around Forge-expand builds (you could make a strong case for PvZ being imbalanced before they became standard). Who knows, if Zerg is allowed to 12 hatch every game in SC2, then maybe Forge-expand will be necessary in SC2 again.
As Idra said earlier, there's not a whole lot of wiggle room for creativity in the early game. There are only so many permutations you can have of things that happen in the early-game. Obviously you could design a race that's behind early, but has a ridiculous ability to play catch-up in the mid/late-game, but even if that is true of zerg, it's also probably not good game design.
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On August 11 2010 15:58 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 15:57 Samus wrote:
How about we just nerf terran into oblivion so they'll never be competitive again, Reading some of the suggestions seems like the Zerg players want that. There are going to be unreasonable players on both sides of the discussion. That doesn't mean the discussion isn't worth having.
Well when i get beaten by zerg players trying out different strategies and build orders. People need to learn and adapt to the game.
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On August 11 2010 15:43 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 15:40 Vokasak wrote:
That's true, but that isn't necessarily bad or imbalanced. In BW, cannon FE and 14CC were also reasonable builds. I hate to respond with this cliche, but SC2 is a new game and it would be unreasonable if your Broodwar builds worked without some adjustment. if you dont have a problem with reaper rushes or playing off defensive 1 base openings perhaps you should come play on the korean server so you can be first place. or perhaps you shouldnt give anecdotal evidence from silver league.
My accomplishments and my ego aren't mighty enough to compete with yours, sir, but I don't exactly see every top Terran reaper rushing their way into tournament victories.
On August 11 2010 15:50 Zerksys wrote:
Artosis's (wow that's awkward to say and write) comment was about the average protoss player. Of course it's not all that protoss and terran have been doing but I warrant you that if I go on bnet and play 5 games against a terran 4 of them I'll encounter some form of early reapers. Then if I go onto bnet and play 5 toss players at least one of them will 2 gate rush me another one of them will try to cheese and another 2 might try a botched version of a 4 gate push which works really well regardless of how badly it's executed. He's saying that it's going to take a while for these people who have been abusing these strategies to come to terms with the fact that these strategies don't work any more and try new things. Just as you say that when the zerg nerfs first came and there were a lot of complainers who eventually got over it and tried new things. The reason why zerg players are complaining these days is because we've tried a seemingly endless array of approaches and nothing is working. Terran players can simply alter their build order slightly and we have to start from scratch.
That wasn't the impression I was left with after reading Artosis's (Agreed) post, but that sounds pretty reasonable. For what it's worth, I've had more Terrans dropping me all over and Protosses trying to do things like an early bust of backdoors than any of the stuff mentioned so far, but anecdotes can only go so far.
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