On August 11 2010 00:35 driftme wrote: First of all... ridiculous comparison to organic carapace. Medivac can only heal one unit at once. If you're comparing 13.5hp/sec to the 10hp/sec for burrowed roaches, you have to keep in mind ALL your roaches are regenning 10/sec AT THE SAME TIME. To reach the same level of hp/sec (as a group), you'd need a ton of medivacs.
Also, about your drop complaint... Apparently you're forgetting about overlords and warp prisms.
You're also forgetting something... Medivacs heal while the units attack. Organic Carapace heals when the unit STOPS ATTACKING. MASSIVE difference between the two. Also, if the Terran uses a scan, your burrowed units might as well be fish in a barrel. You need to consider those factors and why Terran Drops are just so godly awesome.
Finally, Overlords are not drop points. Yes they have that ability, but no I am not using my Need-Two-Upgrades-To-Drop and Pop Cap units to try and drop in the enemy base.
Terran loses Medivacs, they're out only the unit. Zerg lose Overlords and they lose Pop that they have to replace if they didn't spam Overlords just for the express purpose of Drop. (Which of course, Medivacs can do soemthign other than Drop.)
We aren't forgetting about Overlords, but it's a very risky and expensive endeavour to use them. Nydus doesn't run as much risk, but can be difficult due to a number of factors.
I dont want to get to mixed in this TvZ bla bla. But saying that overlords are not good enough dropers and medivacs are. I just cant agree. try to remember that an overlord costs 100 minerals. And a medivac costs 100/100. So yes overlords need upgrades, but I think they are still cheaper. and when they don't die you have enough food for a while....
On August 11 2010 07:09 jombeeno wrote: I don't really understand all fuss about the TvZ match-up. However some changes need to be made to the range on the Viking. The range is beyond insanity if you compare it to the Corrupter and Phoenix.
If you look at the 3 Anti-air units: - Corrupter - Increased Damage Ability casts only on single target. - Phoenix - Graviton Beam (useless against air) - Can shoot while moving - Viking - Range 9
Essentially the Corrupter must get close enough to not only cast but to fire. In that time the Vikings can generally get off a full volley of missiles.
The Phoenix move while attacking is useful, however when going against a group of Vikings the attack while move is useless because the Vikings can just sit in place with the mass range while the Phoenixes attack while moving is pointless.
Conclusion: Leave everything as it is. Except change the range on the Viking.
You're derailing the thread completely, if you dont understand the fuss you might want to read the OP, in regard to tvp, I believe it's considered to be balanced.
Christ...at a certain point, don't you just have to start playing the game that you're given, instead of trying to change it to compensate for your preconceptions?
I fear that zerg players will finally get all their whiny balance suggestions implemented, and then on the next day realize just how godly Nydus worms are and proceed to destroy everything. Nerfing Thor range...good grief.
On August 11 2010 08:16 Vokasak wrote: Christ...at a certain point, don't you just have to start playing the game that you're given, instead of trying to change it to compensate for your preconceptions?
I fear that zerg players will finally get all their whiny balance suggestions implemented, and then on the next day realize just how godly Nydus worms are and proceed to destroy everything. Nerfing Thor range...good grief.
Can you please stop posting in threads like this if you don't have anything further to add? This is so goddamn frustrating to read.
On August 11 2010 08:16 Vokasak wrote: Christ...at a certain point, don't you just have to start playing the game that you're given, instead of trying to change it to compensate for your preconceptions?
I fear that zerg players will finally get all their whiny balance suggestions implemented, and then on the next day realize just how godly Nydus worms are and proceed to destroy everything. Nerfing Thor range...good grief.
Can you please stop posting in threads like this if you don't have anything further to add? This is so goddamn frustrating to read.
Hmm? That was practically the first remotely critical post I've made. I find it more frustrating to constantly be reading people's brilliant suggestions on how to improve the game instead of just fucking playing and getting better and allowing the level of play to advance on it's own.
MULEs and Vikings seem too powerful? Live with it. Brood War had a 10-year run with 25 minerals per spider mine, and you even got a great harassment unit for free when you bought three.
On August 11 2010 08:29 floor exercise wrote: Personally I'd really like to know how nydus worms godly when scvs can kill them
One worm died? Big deal. It's a Nydus Network, not a Nydus one-shot-one-way-transport.
On August 11 2010 07:28 Fitz wrote: You're derailing the thread completely, if you dont understand the fuss you might want to read the OP, in regard to tvp, I believe it's considered to be balanced.
This is what makes changing this matchup difficult. PvZ and TvP are pretty balanced, and it's hard to make a change that doesn't affect them or the TvT mirror.
I believe if Blizzard is going to fix this matchup in a way that doesn't break one of the other matchups, there have to be changes to all 3 races (compensating for changes to other matchups). If it was an easy fix that was limited to just one race, Blizzard probably would have made it already.
On August 11 2010 07:09 jombeeno wrote: I don't really understand all fuss about the TvZ match-up. However some changes need to be made to the range on the Viking. The range is beyond insanity if you compare it to the Corrupter and Phoenix.
If you look at the 3 Anti-air units: - Corrupter - Increased Damage Ability casts only on single target. - Phoenix - Graviton Beam (useless against air) - Can shoot while moving - Viking - Range 9
Essentially the Corrupter must get close enough to not only cast but to fire. In that time the Vikings can generally get off a full volley of missiles.
The Phoenix move while attacking is useful, however when going against a group of Vikings the attack while move is useless because the Vikings can just sit in place with the mass range while the Phoenixes attack while moving is pointless.
Conclusion: Leave everything as it is. Except change the range on the Viking.
I think too many people here just look at a unit that they think needs to be changed to "aid" a certain MU but don't think of the side effects that it would pose on other MU's.
"The viking needs a lower range so the corruptor can be used against them" The acceleration on the viking is god awful so much that a void ray can almost always keep up with them once the void ray has landed an attack and can shoot while moving till the viking is almost dead or dead. A range reduction without any other perc would probably adversely affect TvP. VoidRay/Dt rushes IMO are the reason that terran 111 builds became so popular versus protoss. Remember marines vs voidrays can only get you so far. A good toss player after he sees your infantry ball will not suicide his VoidRays. Instead he will attempt to keep them alive for use later in the game. So now the terran due to vikings being less effective vs Rays the terran is forced to get a large number of rines in his army. One well placed storm or 1-2 collosus that melt a large majority of the marines can mean these voidrays that have been sitting back now move in and melt everything else.
On August 11 2010 08:16 Vokasak wrote: Christ...at a certain point, don't you just have to start playing the game that you're given, instead of trying to change it to compensate for your preconceptions?
I fear that zerg players will finally get all their whiny balance suggestions implemented, and then on the next day realize just how godly Nydus worms are and proceed to destroy everything. Nerfing Thor range...good grief.
Can you please stop posting in threads like this if you don't have anything further to add? This is so goddamn frustrating to read.
Hmm? That was practically the first remotely critical post I've made. I find it more frustrating to constantly be reading people's brilliant suggestions on how to improve the game instead of just fucking playing and getting better and allowing the level of play to advance on it's own.
MULEs and Vikings seem too powerful? Live with it. Brood War had a 10-year run with 25 minerals per spider mine, and you even got a great harassment unit for free when you bought three.
On August 11 2010 08:16 Vokasak wrote: Christ...at a certain point, don't you just have to start playing the game that you're given, instead of trying to change it to compensate for your preconceptions?
I fear that zerg players will finally get all their whiny balance suggestions implemented, and then on the next day realize just how godly Nydus worms are and proceed to destroy everything. Nerfing Thor range...good grief.
Can you please stop posting in threads like this if you don't have anything further to add? This is so goddamn frustrating to read.
Hmm? That was practically the first remotely critical post I've made. I find it more frustrating to constantly be reading people's brilliant suggestions on how to improve the game instead of just fucking playing and getting better and allowing the level of play to advance on it's own.
MULEs and Vikings seem too powerful? Live with it. Brood War had a 10-year run with 25 minerals per spider mine, and you even got a great harassment unit for free when you bought three.
On August 11 2010 08:29 floor exercise wrote: Personally I'd really like to know how nydus worms godly when scvs can kill them
On August 11 2010 08:16 Vokasak wrote: Christ...at a certain point, don't you just have to start playing the game that you're given, instead of trying to change it to compensate for your preconceptions?
I fear that zerg players will finally get all their whiny balance suggestions implemented, and then on the next day realize just how godly Nydus worms are and proceed to destroy everything. Nerfing Thor range...good grief.
Can you please stop posting in threads like this if you don't have anything further to add? This is so goddamn frustrating to read.
Hmm? That was practically the first remotely critical post I've made. I find it more frustrating to constantly be reading people's brilliant suggestions on how to improve the game instead of just fucking playing and getting better and allowing the level of play to advance on it's own.
MULEs and Vikings seem too powerful? Live with it. Brood War had a 10-year run with 25 minerals per spider mine, and you even got a great harassment unit for free when you bought three.
On August 11 2010 08:29 floor exercise wrote: Personally I'd really like to know how nydus worms godly when scvs can kill them
One worm died? Big deal. It's a Nydus Network, not a Nydus one-shot-one-way-transport.
Funny because I don't think I've ever played vs a Zerg who built more then one Nydus lol
The same Zergs that are mis-using the tools at their disposal are the ones making and posting in these whine threads. The game is still so so so so so new, and even though we're all smart people who have ten years of Brood War experience blah blah blah, it's way too early to make sweeping balance suggestions like the ones in this thread.
I get the sneaking suspicion that LaLush has a big old grin reading us nerds rage left and right about balance and matchups and whatnot. Remember this "Micro where art thou?" thread? Same type of thread, same result. >:[
My previous comment about "controlling the tempo" was very broad...your pleas of "How can it be done??" cannot be answered with a unit composition or a simple strategy modification. You guys have all watched good Zerg players play and played against better Zergs than yourself. You know what it is like to control the tempo and it involves all the areas of the game: Micro, macro, scouting, reaction time, well timed pressure, creative/unique strategies, knowing what your opponent is capable of, and yes, unit composition to name some. Most of you are in Diamond league and I'm sure none of that needs explaining.
However, I feel as if some Zergs have come to accept the notion that their race is worse than Terran and as such have abandoned finding new strategies. Even if Zerg was imbalanced, it would only be by a very small margin. If changes were to be made they would not be enough to help people complaining here (the same people that refuse to accept the data) win a considerable amount of games. While people like to blame external factors for losses, there are so many internal (within your control) factors that go into every game that the amount of balance the devs have create is precise down to every variable. A reasonable change, perhaps, would be a reduction to Viking Air range (even though they just got nerfed). This will not help you any more games as Terran strategies will develop and the cries will continue.
In fact, this is how it goes in most games. Especially in Blizzard games, trends form seemingly out of nowhere in the community that become widespread knowledge. However, the statistics behind it (say, for example, Arena Rankings by class in WoW) suggest that no such imbalance exists. Eventually either A.) the bias fades away as new playstyles are developed or B.) a small change is made that does not satisfy the community. Rinse and Repeat.
On August 11 2010 08:16 Vokasak wrote: Christ...at a certain point, don't you just have to start playing the game that you're given, instead of trying to change it to compensate for your preconceptions?
I fear that zerg players will finally get all their whiny balance suggestions implemented, and then on the next day realize just how godly Nydus worms are and proceed to destroy everything. Nerfing Thor range...good grief.
Can you please stop posting in threads like this if you don't have anything further to add? This is so goddamn frustrating to read.
Hmm? That was practically the first remotely critical post I've made. I find it more frustrating to constantly be reading people's brilliant suggestions on how to improve the game instead of just fucking playing and getting better and allowing the level of play to advance on it's own.
MULEs and Vikings seem too powerful? Live with it. Brood War had a 10-year run with 25 minerals per spider mine, and you even got a great harassment unit for free when you bought three.
On August 11 2010 08:29 floor exercise wrote: Personally I'd really like to know how nydus worms godly when scvs can kill them
One worm died? Big deal. It's a Nydus Network, not a Nydus one-shot-one-way-transport.
Funny because I don't think I've ever played vs a Zerg who built more then one Nydus lol
While that was a very pimp play, he spent at least 1400 gas on nydus that game. Maybe I'm noob, but I've never been in a ZvP where I have 1400 gas to spare.
On August 11 2010 08:16 Vokasak wrote: Christ...at a certain point, don't you just have to start playing the game that you're given, instead of trying to change it to compensate for your preconceptions?
I fear that zerg players will finally get all their whiny balance suggestions implemented, and then on the next day realize just how godly Nydus worms are and proceed to destroy everything. Nerfing Thor range...good grief.
Can you please stop posting in threads like this if you don't have anything further to add? This is so goddamn frustrating to read.
Hmm? That was practically the first remotely critical post I've made. I find it more frustrating to constantly be reading people's brilliant suggestions on how to improve the game instead of just fucking playing and getting better and allowing the level of play to advance on it's own.
MULEs and Vikings seem too powerful? Live with it. Brood War had a 10-year run with 25 minerals per spider mine, and you even got a great harassment unit for free when you bought three.
On August 11 2010 08:29 floor exercise wrote: Personally I'd really like to know how nydus worms godly when scvs can kill them
One worm died? Big deal. It's a Nydus Network, not a Nydus one-shot-one-way-transport.
Funny because I don't think I've ever played vs a Zerg who built more then one Nydus lol
While that was a very pimp play, he spent at least 1400 gas on nydus that game. Maybe I'm noob, but I've never been in a ZvP where I have 1400 gas to spare.
He had cut mutas and hydras to help pay for it, and that wasn't 1400 gas all at the same time but over a period where it would be reasonable to mine a fair amount of gas. It doesn't even need to be 1400 gas. He could have stopped after he killed the nexus in the main and have secured a huge economic lead for 500 gas or so, as opposed to spending the extra gas and winning outright immediately.
Anyway, I hadn't posted that video to provide a build people could copy, merely to demonstrate that there's huge untapped potential in the zerg arsenal that's being largely ignored at the moment. Too many zerg players are all too happy with their roach/hydras into complainthread builds.
On August 11 2010 08:16 Vokasak wrote: Christ...at a certain point, don't you just have to start playing the game that you're given, instead of trying to change it to compensate for your preconceptions?
I fear that zerg players will finally get all their whiny balance suggestions implemented, and then on the next day realize just how godly Nydus worms are and proceed to destroy everything. Nerfing Thor range...good grief.
Can you please stop posting in threads like this if you don't have anything further to add? This is so goddamn frustrating to read.
Hmm? That was practically the first remotely critical post I've made. I find it more frustrating to constantly be reading people's brilliant suggestions on how to improve the game instead of just fucking playing and getting better and allowing the level of play to advance on it's own.
MULEs and Vikings seem too powerful? Live with it. Brood War had a 10-year run with 25 minerals per spider mine, and you even got a great harassment unit for free when you bought three.
On August 11 2010 08:29 floor exercise wrote: Personally I'd really like to know how nydus worms godly when scvs can kill them
One worm died? Big deal. It's a Nydus Network, not a Nydus one-shot-one-way-transport.
Funny because I don't think I've ever played vs a Zerg who built more then one Nydus lol
The same Zergs that are mis-using the tools at their disposal are the ones making and posting in these whine threads. The game is still so so so so so new, and even though we're all smart people who have ten years of Brood War experience blah blah blah, it's way too early to make sweeping balance suggestions like the ones in this thread.
I get the sneaking suspicion that LaLush has a big old grin reading us nerds rage left and right about balance and matchups and whatnot. Remember this "Micro where art thou?" thread? Same type of thread, same result. >:[
People don't use more Nydus Worms because they cost 100 min 100gas. Let's see how many terrans would use medivac drops if they'd have to pay 100min and 100gas every time they drop their units and if their drops would make a loud noise a few seconds before any actual units would come out.
Offensive nydus worms are just BS. Any non-retarded Terran/Toss should have visibility of his entire base, so he can easily defend the drop. At the moment nydus spamming might work because the usual diamond Protoss/Terran lacks even the most basic multitasking and simply doesn't know what to do when he sees more than one Nydus worm, but in the future, when those players actually aquire somes kill, it will be just a waste of resources, nothing more.
They might be used defensively though. For example, last-minute rescuing of drones etc.
On August 10 2010 23:16 kajeus wrote: Well, I explained it pretty clearly in my post, I thought. If 5% of all players are in diamond, and 6.15% of zerg players are in diamond (terran and protoss are pretty close), then it was a reasonable assumption to make.
So, in other words, you have no grounds what-so-ever you're just making that assumption? Is a 1.15% difference significant? We don't know, no one has done the math. If it is significant than your assumption is wrong.
On August 11 2010 08:16 Vokasak wrote: Christ...at a certain point, don't you just have to start playing the game that you're given, instead of trying to change it to compensate for your preconceptions?
I fear that zerg players will finally get all their whiny balance suggestions implemented, and then on the next day realize just how godly Nydus worms are and proceed to destroy everything. Nerfing Thor range...good grief.
Can you please stop posting in threads like this if you don't have anything further to add? This is so goddamn frustrating to read.
Hmm? That was practically the first remotely critical post I've made. I find it more frustrating to constantly be reading people's brilliant suggestions on how to improve the game instead of just fucking playing and getting better and allowing the level of play to advance on it's own.
MULEs and Vikings seem too powerful? Live with it. Brood War had a 10-year run with 25 minerals per spider mine, and you even got a great harassment unit for free when you bought three.
On August 11 2010 08:29 floor exercise wrote: Personally I'd really like to know how nydus worms godly when scvs can kill them
One worm died? Big deal. It's a Nydus Network, not a Nydus one-shot-one-way-transport.
Funny because I don't think I've ever played vs a Zerg who built more then one Nydus lol
The same Zergs that are mis-using the tools at their disposal are the ones making and posting in these whine threads. The game is still so so so so so new, and even though we're all smart people who have ten years of Brood War experience blah blah blah, it's way too early to make sweeping balance suggestions like the ones in this thread.
I get the sneaking suspicion that LaLush has a big old grin reading us nerds rage left and right about balance and matchups and whatnot. Remember this "Micro where art thou?" thread? Same type of thread, same result. >:[
People don't use more Nydus Worms because they cost 100 min 100gas. Let's see how many terrans would use medivac drops if they'd have to pay 100min and 100gas every time they drop their units and if their drops would make a loud noise a few seconds before any actual units would come out.
Offensive nydus worms are just BS. Any non-retarded Terran/Toss should have visibility of his entire base, so he can easily defend the drop. At the moment nydus spamming might work because the usual diamond Protoss/Terran lacks even the most basic multitasking and simply doesn't know what to do when he sees more than one Nydus worm, but in the future, when those players actually aquire somes kill, it will be just a waste of resources, nothing more.
They might be used defensively though. For example, last-minute rescuing of drones etc.
You're still thinking of Nydus Worms as just a different kind of drop. It's a Nydus network. Watch that video and see the kind of abuse the Protoss player is being put through. Imagine the same on LT on the high ground above the natural, on Metalopolis at distant expansions, on Kulas, the list goes on. Even a turtling two-base Terran can't unsiege his tanks and get them to two different sides of his base at the same time in time, and if one worm survives there's 100 food worth of units instantly in your base killing your factories. Watch that video again. What would happen if that Protoss tried to spread his out to combat the Nydus worms? The roaches would lol, wipe out his army which spread itself too thin, go to town on the base, and the game would have ended even sooner. Theorycrafting, maybe, but no less valid than your baseless predictions of future play.
I'm glad you make the small concession that they might be of use defensively, but by and large at the moment they aren't being used at all. The matchup can't be fixed if it isn't broken, and we can't say it's broken if one side of the matchup refuses to use their full potential, or even recognize it.
Talking about the nydus network is equally unfair.
If I make 1 nydus network there goes 200 gas, throw down 4 worms in different parts of the map, we've just spent 600 gas. If I don't wipe all your workers, I've basically thrown the game away. If you don't think 600 gas is a lot in mid game or its ok because its spread out over time, try playing with 3 gas when you're on 2 bases.
In a close game, going nydus is an all in, and you don't even gain any combat capabilities for it. If I could re-burrow the worm or something we might be talking, but right now, nydus offers no major mid-game power.
The place where I will say nydus is useful is when you have an insane economic advantage. Nydus is good at sealing the deal when the game is already over.
What zerg needs is early and mid game options. Nydus is neither of those.
For comparison, let's see a terran spend 600 gas on medivacs. That's 100 gas for the starport and 5 medivacs. They can heal, mass drop, split up and drop on multiple places simultaneously (which nydus can't do btw) and if it turns out ineffective, fly back to base and preserve your investment for use later in the game. Options options options.
On August 11 2010 12:16 Jermstuddog wrote: Talking about the nydus network is equally unfair.
If I make 1 nydus network there goes 200 gas, throw down 4 worms in different parts of the map, we've just spent 600 gas. If I don't wipe all your workers, I've basically thrown the game away. If you don't think 600 gas is a lot in mid game or its ok because its spread out over time, try playing with 3 gas when you're on 2 bases.
In a close game, going nydus is an all in, and you don't even gain any combat capabilities for it. If I could re-burrow the worm or something we might be talking, but right now, nydus offers no major mid-game power.
The place where I will say nydus is useful is when you have an insane economic advantage. Nydus is good at sealing the deal when the game is already over.
What zerg needs is early and mid game options. Nydus is neither of those.
For comparison, let's see a terran spend 600 gas on medivacs. That's 100 gas for the starport and 5 medivacs. They can heal, mass drop, split up and drop on multiple places simultaneously (which nydus can't do btw) and if it turns out ineffective, fly back to base and preserve your investment for use later in the game. Options options options.
Ridiculous. Going Nydus isn't anything close to all-in. Are making the equally gas-intensive ultralisks an all-in?
It shouldn't be a surprise at all that you need to spend resources to win a game. Once upon a time in the beta, Terran players couldn't find a way to finance tanks that cost 125 gas, and there were a million threads about "making mech viable" centered around lowering the gas cost. Remember those? Remember not too long ago when it was decided on these forums that nobody will ever use Ultralisks, since they're just too expensive? And then what happened?
Here's a use, off the top of my head. Whever a Terran tries a mech push (Which you should see coming with halfway decent overlord coverage and/or responsible creep spread), throw down a nydus worm in his main and one at his natural or 3rd (if he has one). Given reasonably long distances (Scrap Station, Kulas, Cross on Metalopolis or LT) you will either force a retreat delaying his push or an attempt at a base-trade. The only way to stop it is to leave forces at his bases, making the push weaker. ezpz, and only at the cost of six mutas.
But by all means, keep underusing Nydus, keep A-moving your armies into tank lines and then bitching about mech. I'm a Terran player mainly, I don't mind.
A nydus worm can be killed before it spawns with 5 workers attacking it, so no, he would not need to retreat to stop it, all he'd have to do is pull 5 workers from his main and 5 from his natural and attack. Nydus drop stopped. All he's lost is mining time for at most 20 seconds. I've lost 200/200 on the worms (400/400 if you count the initial cost of the network). It is not hard to build depots and pylons where you don't have sight within your base.
Lets say he doesn't spot the nydus in time, and he decides to base race. Terran buildings float so boom, base race lost, terran comes out on top.
Seriously ask yourself, was the MU broken with 1 supply roaches? Roaches can be countered with tanks, marauders, banshees and battlecruisers. Thors don't do terribly against them, and a terran can kite a roach with all of his units. Maybe he'd have to use some micro, or leap frog his tanks, or not build units out of one structure, but is all that seriously so hard the match up was broken?
Was the matchup broken with a neural parasite that lasted indefinitely, but costs a hundred energy, had to be researched, and kept the infestor frozen in place? Maybe terran would've had to throw ghosts in his army to emp the infestors (its not like they are hard to hit), or he'd actually have to focus fire with his tanks instead of just watching them evaporate everything with their smart AI, maybe he'd actually have to pay attention to his thor position, but is that really so hard the match up was broken?
As it is, a zerg player has to do things as equally hard or harder than the things a terran would have to do to counter those changes, and yet many terran players say no no, zerg is not UP, but never ask themselves was it really broken before? Terran says zerg players just aren't creative, they just refuse to utilize all the options they have! But how many terrans complained about the roach or the infestor without exploring all their options?
Is it really ok that in zvt a terran player has to A) build a barracks B) build a factory C) Scan for mutas to determine how many thors he needs to build and D) A-move to victory? Is that really how we want the match up to play out?
I don't think so, but hay all the terran players out there seem to, and i guess i would too if every win I had against a certain race was as easy as building one or two structures then a-moving.
EPT
