On August 11 2010 08:16 Vokasak wrote: Christ...at a certain point, don't you just have to start playing the game that you're given, instead of trying to change it to compensate for your preconceptions?
I fear that zerg players will finally get all their whiny balance suggestions implemented, and then on the next day realize just how godly Nydus worms are and proceed to destroy everything. Nerfing Thor range...good grief.
Can you please stop posting in threads like this if you don't have anything further to add? This is so goddamn frustrating to read.
Hmm? That was practically the first remotely critical post I've made. I find it more frustrating to constantly be reading people's brilliant suggestions on how to improve the game instead of just fucking playing and getting better and allowing the level of play to advance on it's own.
MULEs and Vikings seem too powerful? Live with it. Brood War had a 10-year run with 25 minerals per spider mine, and you even got a great harassment unit for free when you bought three.
On August 11 2010 08:29 floor exercise wrote: Personally I'd really like to know how nydus worms godly when scvs can kill them
One worm died? Big deal. It's a Nydus Network, not a Nydus one-shot-one-way-transport.
I counted 8 nydus worms in that video. Combined with the initial tech building, that's a grand total cost of 950/1000. Personally, I'd rather spend those resources on stuff that can kill things. Also, having that big a gas reserve on only 2 bases? Not so good.
On August 11 2010 13:35 gbs2x wrote: A nydus worm can be killed before it spawns with 5 workers attacking it, so no, he would not need to retreat to stop it, all he'd have to do is pull 5 workers from his main and 5 from his natural and attack. Nydus drop stopped. All he's lost is mining time for at most 20 seconds. I've lost 200/200 on the worms (400/400 if you count the initial cost of the network). It is not hard to build depots and pylons where you don't have sight within your base.
Assuming you spot it instantly and have 5 workers there, yes. Why the zerg would choose to only send his nydus worms in the middle of mineral lines is beyond me, though.
On August 11 2010 13:35 gbs2x wrote: Lets say he doesn't spot the nydus in time, and he decides to base race. Terran buildings float so boom, base race lost, terran comes out on top.
Terran buildings float, Zerg units pop back into their worms and come back out where they came from. The ensueing battle is more or less what it would be if Zerg never Nydused, except that the Terran's base now consists of a few floating buildings and some depots that haven't quite finished burning down yet.
On August 11 2010 13:35 gbs2x wrote: Seriously ask yourself, was the MU broken with 1 supply roaches? Roaches can be countered with tanks, marauders, banshees and battlecruisers. Thors don't do terribly against them, and a terran can kite a roach with all of his units. Maybe he'd have to use some micro, or leap frog his tanks, or not build units out of one structure, but is all that seriously so hard the match up was broken?
Are you really asking if the matchup was broken with 1 supply roaches? Back when Zerg made only one unit all game long? The roach was a unit that never deserved to be one supply. It was about on par with a zealot, and much stronger than anything the Terrans had at one supply.
On August 11 2010 13:35 gbs2x wrote: Was the matchup broken with a neural parasite that lasted indefinitely, but costs a hundred energy, had to be researched, and kept the infestor frozen in place? Maybe terran would've had to throw ghosts in his army to emp the infestors (its not like they are hard to hit), or he'd actually have to focus fire with his tanks instead of just watching them evaporate everything with their smart AI, maybe he'd actually have to pay attention to his thor position, but is that really so hard the match up was broken?
Indefinate NP was something that limited options instead of opening them up. What's so horrible about having 12 second NP? If you can't end a battle in that time or at least "friendly fire" your newly aquired unit in that time, you don't deserve to win that fight anyway.
On August 11 2010 13:35 gbs2x wrote: As it is, a zerg player has to do things as equally hard or harder than the things a terran would have to do to counter those changes, and yet many terran players say no no, zerg is not UP, but never ask themselves was it really broken before? Terran says zerg players just aren't creative, they just refuse to utilize all the options they have! But how many terrans complained about the roach or the infestor without exploring all their options?
I don't recall nearly as many Terran QQ threads as there are Zerg QQ threads, but even so, Terrans do use all the creative options we have. At least some of us do. Have you met TLO?
On August 11 2010 13:35 gbs2x wrote:Is it really ok that in zvt a terran player has to A) build a barracks B) build a factory C) Scan for mutas to determine how many thors he needs to build and D) A-move to victory? Is that really how we want the match up to play out?
I don't think so, but hay all the terran players out there seem to, and i guess i would too if every win I had against a certain race was as easy as building one or two structures then a-moving.
lol.
On August 11 2010 13:57 brad drac wrote: I counted 8 nydus worms in that video. Combined with the initial tech building, that's a grand total cost of 950/1000. Personally, I'd rather spend those resources on stuff that can kill things. Also, having that big a gas reserve on only 2 bases? Not so good.
950/1000 is less than one (Brood War) control group of mutas, and since the zerg player won rather decidedly, it's safe to say far more effective.
1k gas is pretty reasonable when you consider that's over a period of 4 or so minutes.
Are you really complaining? He spent that amount of gas and won pretty much instantly in what can only be described as a one-sided raping. Would you really rather spend those resources on stuff that can kill things (I'll interpret this as "Moar Hydra/Roach!") when all you can do with it is throw it mindlessly into siege tank lines?
On August 11 2010 13:59 Vokasak wrote:What's so horrible about having 12 second NP? If you can't end a battle in that time or at least "friendly fire" your newly aquired unit in that time, you don't deserve to win that fight anyway.
That's pretty easy. It's a researched ability with a significant energy cost on a unit with 2 other spells both of which are better uses of said energy at no research cost because of the 12 second time limit. If you A move unsupported, large, expensive units into a zerg base you don't deserve to win that fight either. TvZ may very well be balanced by NP in its current form is easily the most useless special ability second only to the thor cannon post ultra buff.
I lol'd pretty hard at the mention of both siege tanks and ultras in a post about avoiding balance changes as both units saw TONS more viability immediately after Blizzard waved their magic wand.
Oh how quickly we forget how much effect moving splash forward 1 unit square does for siege tanks.
Spread your depots and now you can spot nydus worms in your base instantly. I missed the part where that was hard. Microing 5 scvs to take down a nydus too hard? Leave one marauder behind in each of your bases and even if the maruader doesn't get in range of the nydus before it is halfway up, he still kills it.
I don't know if you know this but the nydus worm spawns units one at a time, so for your scenario to be possible, there has to be a map big enough for me to spawn a nydus worm, unload enough of my army to force you to lift all your buildings, then reload my army, and unload it in my base completely before your mech push arrives. I haven't done any of the math but I'm fairly certain there is no map that big other than maybe desert oasis.
And yes I am really asking was the match up broken with a 1 supply roach. I'm not asking if the roach was too good a unit for one supply. Clearly the roach was a very good one supply unit. What I'm asking is was the match up, after patch 11 and before patch 12 broken? Was it impossible without insane skill from the terran for a zerg to lose with the roach as it was between those two patches? If it wasn't then the roach nerf was unnecessary. If you want to argue about incredibly easy to obtain, as well as cheap, and extraordinarily useful units, I have to introduce you to the hellion. But we're not talking about specific units we're talking about the match up. The roach was a good unit at 1 supply. But it didn't break the matchup. Zerg had plenty of other exploitable weaknesses, which it still has as well as the shitty roach.
Really, an infinite np closes doors instead of opening them? That makes no sense whatsoever. If I wanted my infestor back after an np, all I had to do was kill the opposing players unit. There is no advantage a 12 sec np has over an indefinite one, I don't understand what the hell you are talking about. Again, ask yourself was the match up broken? Did an indefinite np shut down a majority of terran builds? It doesn't matter if the spell was amazing, emp is amazing, but I wouldn't say it breaks tvp, even though it doesn't recquire research, can be cast from a cloaked unit, and requires less mana than np.
Yeah terran got creative, after they received a buff every single patch. TLO played random before phase 2, and release. His decision to play terran now, really says all that needs to be said about the race. And I haven't counted, but as I remember it all the starcraft 2 section of TL was was a giant terran qq circle jerk, much like it is now except the roles are reversed. All the terran are telling the zerg to get creative and all the zerg are crying imba, except there hasn't been a patch every week buffing zerg like there was with terran.
On August 11 2010 14:32 Jermstuddog wrote: I lol'd pretty hard at the mention of both siege tanks and ultras in a post about avoiding balance changes as both units saw TONS more viability immediately after Blizzard waved their magic wand.
Oh how quickly we forget how much effect moving splash forward 1 unit square does for siege tanks.
Context can do quite a bit for you, since I mentioned both specifically with regards to their gas cost, which the experts at these forums deemed astronomically high and completely unfeasable at the time, and which is apperantly the reason why Nydus Worms are forever doomed to be awful.
Also, he's building 2 worms at the beginning of that video. I could have swore I saw 10 worms, but if its only 8, that's 1100/1200.
I would really love to watch everything leading up to that point if anybody has the replay or knows where to get it. I suspect Z had a pretty significant economic lead and just threw his money into worms. They didn't win him the game, they just made it easier for him to close the deal after he had a large advantage.
Hell, I could be wrong though, anybody got a link?
Fine. Apparently there's no convincing you poor Zergs. Your race must be doomed forever to be awful. You have my pity. Please, don't ever get creative. Just keep roach/hydra armies and thousand-post complain threads until you get your way. I don't care either way, really. You have nobody to blame but yourselves.
After seeing more and more tvz bullshit, I'd like to thank lalush for making this thread and the good ideas contained within, because I really think something does need to be done about tvz.
Medivacs in particular are very nasty... there is no way for zerg to deal with them. Terran can just make them as an asset for their infantry army, but also get the perk of harrasment of a drop of however many units they want at any point in the game. And zerg doesn't have scourge or stacked mutas to deal with that, they just have to take it up the ass and try to fend it off with ground units.
Vokasak:
who the hell are you? what have you accomplished? you know more than top players (both terran and zerg?).
By the way, actually there is one significant myth in TvZ as it seems for me.
Actually Thors doesnt own muta that badly, they are even if muta has +1 attack and Thors' attack upgrades are no more than mutas def upgrades.
Did alot of testing in UnitTester and i saw that 6 Muta >> 2 Thors, 9 Muta >> 3 Thors, 12 Muta >> 4 Thors etc. 1:1 mineral proportion but 3:2 gas. tho i am ready to pay abit more gas for mutas mobility and harass possibilities.
Mass muta forces T to go marines or add vikings, and marines could be owned hardly by banelings. So i vote for a start with speedlings + mutas and roaches/banelings depends on mech/bio setup of T's army.
Of course main trick is to stay spreaded with "stop" command. This little fact turned around all my TvZ match ups ))
I think its sad after i get beaten by 5 zergs yet Zerg is STILL QQING and i'm in bottom diamond. YOUR RACE IS FINE. Ok lets take my last game for example. Zerg went for banelings, i dealt with it with helions until he got speed, teched up to starports. By then, he had 5 mutalisks raping my mineral line but since i built helions and about 6 marines, i could not beat the mutas off and in the end all my scvs died as i sat watching. And he won. No he was playing one base. Tell me that isn't balanced and zerg is UP if a zerg could go baneling bust then transition into mutas and win the game.
I just watched the video, I'm even more convinced Zerg had a significant advantage before he ever used a single worm. He has enough roaches to mow through those stalkers and can still afford to blow that much on worms. Not to mention the lack of force fields and immortals. Its still a very nice play, I'm not knocking it at all, I have even done similar plays in the past, but the worms did not win the game there.
who the hell are you? what have you accomplished? you know more than top players (both terran and zerg?).
No sir. Like I already said, I give up. You're all right, TvZ is horrible imbalanced because Zergs are doing all they can to the best of their abilities and still coming up short. Maybe if we make Thor's air attack range 4, perhaps if siege tanks dealt 12 damage, if only marauders had 15 hp...
On August 11 2010 07:27 Deckkie wrote: I dont want to get to mixed in this TvZ bla bla. But saying that overlords are not good enough dropers and medivacs are. I just cant agree. try to remember that an overlord costs 100 minerals. And a medivac costs 100/100. So yes overlords need upgrades, but I think they are still cheaper. and when they don't die you have enough food for a while....
Nevermind the Viking, Muta, VR, Phoenix harass of OVIs if you don't put them somewhere defendable.
OVIs are poor drop points when considered next to Medivacs. Medivacs don't hurt your pop when killed, are build for MMM armies as natural additions, and heal their dropped units wonderfully. Oh, and they move pretty darn fast without any upgrades.
You have a two purpose unit whereas if you mass build OVIs for drop, you have a one purpose unit that can actually hurt you if you don't plan appropriately. I would gladly take medivacs in place of OVIs any day.
who the hell are you? what have you accomplished? you know more than top players (both terran and zerg?).
No sir. Like I already said, I give up. You're all right, TvZ is horrible imbalanced because Zergs are doing all they can to the best of their abilities and still coming up short. Maybe if we make Thor's air attack range 4, perhaps if siege tanks dealt 12 damage, if only marauders had 15 hp...
I can see how seriously you take it. Clearly you take it as seriously as the teams of players who play at pro or semi pro level and have both terran and zerg players trying to come up with ways for zerg to even the playing field in zvt. I am sure you spend all your time playing zvt against top terran players practicing various strategies and ideas. Oh wait, I actually don't think that at all.
On August 11 2010 14:41 travis wrote: After seeing more and more tvz bullshit, I'd like to thank lalush for making this thread and the good ideas contained within, because I really think something does need to be done about tvz.
Medivacs in particular are very nasty... there is no way for zerg to deal with them. Terran can just make them as an asset for their infantry army, but also get the perk of harrasment of a drop of however many units they want at any point in the game. And zerg doesn't have scourge or stacked mutas to deal with that, they just have to take it up the ass and try to fend it off with ground units.
Vokasak:
who the hell are you? what have you accomplished? you know more than top players (both terran and zerg?).
Changes are needed for sure, the problem is that the OP's changes are not very well thought-out.
MULE - Nerf at low levels, buff at high levels (due to the improved energy versatility on the Orbital Command). This is hardly what we're trying to accomplish, as it's pretty clear that TvZ is a problem at high levels.
Depots - Does nothing. All Terran does is start using Barracks to open/close wall-ins like we've been doing for 10 years, and leave depots raised.
Viking/Marauder/Medivac - Because all 3 units are more critical to TvP than TvZ, it's extremely hard to nerf them enough to fix TvZ while at the same time not breaking TvP. Obviously, you haven't gained anything if you ruin one matchup to fix another.
Thor - Marauder/Thor compositions in TvT finally made TvT into something that isn't just Viking/Tank spam. Nerfing Thor range hurts this. Again, breaking one matchup to fix another doesn't solve anything.
Bunker salvage is something worth looking at (especially given it's influence on the early game, which has been stated by many as the real issue in ZvT). Of course, again, you need to be careful and not hurt TvP too much.
All the zerg players here realize medivacs are the ONLY regen the terran can get right? And stim costs health, and it's needed for kiting and chasing...yeah without those medivac's the terran might do as much damage to themselves as their enemies.
On August 11 2010 14:43 Vengeaner wrote: By the way, actually there is one significant myth in TvZ as it seems for me.
Actually Thors doesnt own muta that badly, they are even if muta has +1 attack and Thors' attack upgrades are no more than mutas def upgrades.
Did alot of testing in UnitTester and i saw that 6 Muta >> 2 Thors, 9 Muta >> 3 Thors, 12 Muta >> 4 Thors etc. 1:1 mineral proportion but 3:2 gas. tho i am ready to pay abit more gas for mutas mobility and harass possibilities.
Mass muta forces T to go marines or add vikings, and marines could be owned hardly by banelings. So i vote for a start with speedlings + mutas and roaches/banelings depends on mech/bio setup of T's army.
Of course main trick is to stay spreaded with "stop" command. This little fact turned around all my TvZ match ups ))
This doesen't work. It might work against 1-2 Thors, but if it goes up to 3 you will simply evaporate. It's not like the Thors are shooting at the exactly same Mutas so that the AoE stays on one area. So unless the Terran for some reasons clicks with his Thors instead of just A-moving or spreading his damage around, this doesen't really change anything.
Also, even in Mech armies Marines are often included in, they don't have upgrades so they are relatively weak but still pack a decent punch especially against Mutas. (Marines are 50 minerals and you already have a Barracks so if you just keep pumping from that you will have a decent amount of Marines for your push, something that many Terrans seem to neglect, mainly because they don't realize the strenght of Marines even when they are without stim as a extra DPSer and a meatshield since Zerg doesen't have any AoE in Lair apart from banelings which get owned by Siege tanks / Thors, and FG which is a spell, meaning, if your marines are dying, your tanks / thors are not, since Hydralisks and Roaches which are there to do the damage, are single target.)
who the hell are you? what have you accomplished? you know more than top players (both terran and zerg?).
No sir. Like I already said, I give up. You're all right, TvZ is horrible imbalanced because Zergs are doing all they can to the best of their abilities and still coming up short. Maybe if we make Thor's air attack range 4, perhaps if siege tanks dealt 12 damage, if only marauders had 15 hp...
I can see how seriously you take it. Clearly you take it as seriously as the teams of players who play at pro or semi pro level and have both terran and zerg players trying to come up with ways for zerg to even the playing field in zvt. I am sure you spend all your time playing zvt against top terran players practicing various strategies and ideas. Oh wait, I actually don't think that at all.
To be fair, the top players are busy out being top players. I doubt they have the time to create the sheer volume of ZvT complain threads that these forums have seen lately. They're not the ones making them, and even if they were, their time would be better spent practicing the aforementioned various strategies and ideas.
I'm aware that seniority has it's privileges on these forums, and that this clearly isn't a debate I have the postcount or registration date to win, but surely we can agree that this isn't a problem that refined creative play can't solve? We both want the level of play to rise, don't we? Blizzard coming in and waving their magic wand won't help us in that regard.
On August 11 2010 14:41 travis wrote: After seeing more and more tvz bullshit, I'd like to thank lalush for making this thread and the good ideas contained within, because I really think something does need to be done about tvz.
Medivacs in particular are very nasty... there is no way for zerg to deal with them. Terran can just make them as an asset for their infantry army, but also get the perk of harrasment of a drop of however many units they want at any point in the game. And zerg doesn't have scourge or stacked mutas to deal with that, they just have to take it up the ass and try to fend it off with ground units.
Vokasak:
who the hell are you? what have you accomplished? you know more than top players (both terran and zerg?).
Changes are needed for sure, the problem is that the OP's changes are not very well thought-out.
MULE - Nerf at low levels, buff at high levels (due to the improved energy versatility on the Orbital Command). This is hardly what we're trying to accomplish, as it's pretty clear that TvZ is a problem at high levels.
Depots - Does nothing. All Terran does is start using Barracks to open/close wall-ins like we've been doing for 10 years, and leave depots raised.
Viking/Marauder/Medivac - Because all 3 units are more critical to TvP than TvZ, it's extremely hard to nerf them enough to fix TvZ while at the same time not breaking TvP. Obviously, you haven't gained anything if you ruin one matchup to fix another.
Thor - Marauder/Thor compositions in TvT finally made TvT into something that isn't just Viking/Tank spam. Nerfing Thor range hurts this. Again, breaking one matchup to fix another doesn't solve anything.
Bunker salvage is something worth looking at (especially given it's influence on the early game, which has been stated by many as the real issue in ZvT). Of course, again, you need to be careful and not hurt TvP too much.
My personal opinion is that medivacs drop too many units (they are sooooo gooood in tvz) and that planetary fortresses are basically bullshit in both pvt and tvz. That's just my opinion but I won't act like im qualified to say what should or shouldn't be changed.
EPT
